? 1/20 AMPS 128 stall, pre-shot at 123 after 30 m, after 15 min again 123. Please advise ??

Kokkinoulis

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@Bandit's Mom , @Marje and Gracie , @Wendy&Neko , @tiffmaxee , @Chris & China (GA), @Ale & Bobo & Minnie (GA), @Sienne and Gabby (GA)

Previous post:https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB...-372-5-358-8-423-pmps-429-dose-advice.285634/

The PMPS at 8:46 am was 128 , I stall the dose and the Pre-shot at 9:16 am was 123. Please advise? Should i shot 5.5 unit know? It seems that the BG number is lowering..
Moreover, it is not sure If i will be all day at home as my father is at hospital and i have to take care of him.

At 9:38 am it was again 123.

I fed him now and I am wondering what to do? To shot him reduced by 0.5 unit to skip the dose?

Update: I fed him, the BG was 140 1.30 h after the normal shot time , and I reduced the dose to 4 unit (more than 2/3 of the previous one of 5.5 iu)
 
Last edited:
Hi Gabriella :)
I'm not in a position to give advice but want you to know you're not alone :bighug:
Hopefully someone can give advice soon.

Do you follow other rules than the TR? I'm asking since in TR you can safely shoot above 50 if you're prepared to handle low numbers such as having higher carb ready and/or honey, and enough test strips to test.

I can see that Kokkinoulis is not too new to lower numbers. He's had some blue PS before-one you stall and one you didn't. Maybe that can guide you as well. What were your decisions based on these last time?

I see you said you're not going to be home to monitor. Perhaps you could give a token dose. But again, someone with more experience should advise you on that.

I see it's been nearly an hour since sou posted this-could you give us an update?

How is Kokkinoulis's mood? Is he acting as normal? How is his energy, is he playful, grooming, responsive? Perhaps you can tell us more about his energy state as well.

Hang in there. You're doing great :bighug::bighug::bighug:
 
Sorry no one responded earlier. Kokki has a tendency to nadir at the end of the cycle when he is clearing a bounce, so he's going to give you lower preshots every now and then! Sometimes, stalling without food can cause numbers to drop further - making the decision to shoot even ore difficult!

It's good that you gave some insulin. How depot insulins like Lantus work is that even though you have given a lower dose this morning, the first part of the cycle will continue to be influenced by the higher 5.5U depot. Can you get a test at +1 (1 hour from when you shot)?
 
Hi Gabriella :)
I'm not in a position to give advice but want you to know you're not alone :bighug:
Hopefully someone can give advice soon.

Do you follow other rules than the TR? I'm asking since in TR you can safely shoot above 50 if you're prepared to handle low numbers such as having higher carb ready and/or honey, and enough test strips to test.

I can see that Kokkinoulis is not too new to lower numbers. He's had some blue PS before-one you stall and one you didn't. Maybe that can guide you as well. What were your decisions based on these last time?

I see you said you're not going to be home to monitor. Perhaps you could give a token dose. But again, someone with more experience should advise you on that.

I see it's been nearly an hour since sou posted this-could you give us an update?

How is Kokkinoulis's mood? Is he acting as normal? How is his energy, is he playful, grooming, responsive? Perhaps you can tell us more about his energy state as well.

Hang in there. You're doing great :bighug::bighug::bighug:


Hi Shelly, Thanks a lot for your kind words. I fed him, his BG was 140 and I shot 4 unit because I was afraid as
 
Sorry no one responded earlier. Kokki has a tendency to nadir at the end of the cycle when he is clearing a bounce, so he's going to give you lower preshots every now and then! Sometimes, stalling without food can cause numbers to drop further - making the decision to shoot even ore difficult!

It's good that you gave some insulin. How depot insulins like Lantus work is that even though you have given a lower dose this morning, the first part of the cycle will continue to be influenced by the higher 5.5U depot. Can you get a test at +1 (1 hour from when you shot)?
Hi Bhooma, Yesterday at night I drew insulin from a new Lantus pen, so maybe that plays a role, maybe the insulin in the vial was not very active. Who knows?
I shot him only 4 iu (more than 2/3 who is 3.6 iu).
I will test him now .

Do we follow in our forum for TR the below guidelines as described in Roomp K, Rand JS. Management of diabetic cats with long-acting insulin. Vet Clin North Am Small Anim Pract 2013;43(2):251–66?


If blood glucose at the time of the next insulin injection is 2.8–5.5 mmol/L (50–100 mg/dL)

Initially test which of the alternate methods is best suited to the individual cat:
1. Feed cat and reduce the dose by 0.25–0.5 IU depending on if cat is on low or high dose of insulin
2. Feed the cat, wait 1–2 h; when the glucose concentration increases to >5.5 mmol/L (>100 mg/dL), give the normal dose. If the glucose concentration does not increase within 1–2 h, reduce
the dose by 0.25 IU or 0.5 IU (as above).
3. Split the dose: feed cat and give most of dose immediately and then give the remainder 1–2 h later, when the glucose concentration has increased to >5.5 mmol/L (>100 mg/dL).
If all of these methods lead to increased blood glucose concentrations, give the full dose if preinsulin blood glucose concentration is 2.8–5.5 mmol/L (50–100 mg/dL) and observe closely for signs of hypoglycemia. In general for most cats, the best results in phase 2 occur when insulin is dosed as consistent as possible, giving the full normal dose at the regular injection time.
 
What a pitty! 1.30 hours after the shot of 4 iu BG is 247 I got scared and didn't give him the normal dose of 5.5 iu or at least 5iu.
 
Hi Bhooma, Yesterday at night I drew insulin from a new Lantus pen, so maybe that plays a role, maybe the insulin in the vial was not very active. Who knows?
It's also possible that he was just clearing the bounce from the blue cycle on the 16th. Last night was the 6th cycle after those blues. He has been seeing better numbers as he gets closer to a good dose.

Do we follow in our forum for TR the below guidelines as described in Roomp K, Rand JS. Management of diabetic cats with long-acting insulin. Vet Clin North Am Small Anim Pract 2013;43(2):251–66?
With TR, you can shoot any number over 50 mg/dl with a human meter. Here's our sticky that details how to handle lower preshots:
Tight Regulation: Becoming Data Ready to Shoot / Handle Lower Pre-shot Numbers

It can be scary to shoot lower preshots at first, but with experience you can shoot any number over 50 without stalling. You fill find that Lantus gives lovely flat cycles when you shoot low. In Kokki's case, you want to get used to shooting low because he seems to be one of those cats who nadirs at the end of the cycle (or even as late as +13) and then heads up from there.
 
What a pitty! 1.30 hours after the shot of 4 iu BG is 247 I got scared and didn't give him the normal dose of 5.5 iu or at least 5iu.
I just finished posting above that he has this pattern. If you see all the times that you have shot blue (or close to it) this month, he has headed up after. It's good you gave the shot today. As you collect data on how he behaves with lower preshots, you will get more confidence to shoot lower numbers. :)
 
It's also possible that he was just clearing the bounce from the blue cycle on the 16th. Last night was the 6th cycle after those blues. He has been seeing better numbers as he gets closer to a good dose.


With TR, you can shoot any number over 50 mg/dl with a human meter. Here's our sticky that details how to handle lower preshots:
Tight Regulation: Becoming Data Ready to Shoot / Handle Lower Pre-shot Numbers

It can be scary to shoot lower preshots at first, but with experience you can shoot any number over 50 without stalling. You fill find that Lantus gives lovely flat cycles when you shoot low. In Kokki's case, you want to get used to shooting low because he seems to be one of those cats who nadirs at the end of the cycle (or even as late as +13) and then heads up from there.

In our sticky it is not mention something for BG 50–100 mg/dL described in Roomp K, Rand JS. Management of diabetic cats with long-acting insulin. Vet Clin North Am Small Anim Pract 2013;43(2):251–66?
Should I search somewhere in our forum regarding low -preshot numbers?
 
Should I search somewhere in our forum regarding low -preshot numbers?
Did you see the link I shared? I am reproducing from there:

How to Deal with Low Preshot Numbers (the following guidelines apply to those following the Tight Regulation Protocol only):
You just tested your cat’s preshot number, and there is a much lower than usual number staring back at you. What do you do?

There is no one-size-fits all answer, but there are some general guidelines. As with everything else, each cat is different (ECID) and each caregiver is different too.

The short answer is that most kitties can be shot at +12, almost regardless of the number, once you are data ready to do so. The exception is that shooting 30s or 40s is not recommended for most cats, so if a cat is lower then usually the best option is to wait until they are at a shootable number to shoot. What constitutes a shootable number will vary by cat, but we don't suggest or recommend shooting a preshot number less than 50. While you’re waiting, the depot is draining, so you want to get the insulin in as soon as it makes sense to shoot.

If it is your first time shooting green, then we will likely suggest that you stall the first time, even if the number is 80-100. That will let you collect data on what your cat will do when you stall. One thing you can do if you are having a low cycle is to get a +10 and +11. Those will give you a good idea of how quickly the cat’s numbers are rising (or not) when preshot time arrives.

Beyond the general guidelines, there are other factors we consider when we are helping someone with a low preshot.
  • If the low preshot is not part of that cat’s normal pattern or there is reason to think something might be wrong, we will be more conservative.
  • If the cat is not a food spiker or tends to have an early onset/early nadir then they may not want to shoot as low. If the cat has a late nadir, then they will HAVE to learn to shoot low.
  • We will also be more conservative in some cases because of the person – if you are not able to monitor then you want to be more careful, or if you are not sure that you can get back to the board to keep us updated throughout the cycle. Trust me, if you shoot low, we will be watching for your updates and we will worry if we don’t see them.
  • We have to be a lot more careful with the cats who eat only dry food, because they don’t have access to the tools the rest of us use to keep our cats safe.
  • Also, when it comes to very low preshots, there is an unwritten rule that whoever helps that person shoot low should expect to sit with them through any low parts of the cycle. There have been times when I knew a cat’s number was likely shootable, but I also knew that I could not be around to help if the shot resulted in low numbers later in the cycle. For safety’s sake, if I could not find someone else who would be available to support for the next several hours, I would most likely suggest that the shot be reduced or skipped. I will not encourage someone to shoot low and then abandon them.
  • There are a lot of other scenarios, and you always want to keep your cat in mind.
Some general rules when stalling (ECID):
  • 50s or higher – don’t feed. The number will bump up on its own soon due to the insulin wearing off.
  • 40s or lower – you have a couple of choices.
    • When 40s occur at the end of the cycle, it can be beneficial to withhold food and test in 15-20 minutes to determine if kitty is on the rise or hasn’t reached nadir yet.
    • If they are hanging in the 40s for a while, or if they are still dropping, it is ok to feed a tsp or two of LC and retest. This is very tricky. You want to avoid feeding too much while you’re waiting for them to go over 50, because you don’t want to artificially inflate the number with food.
      • Example: if kitty is 43 and you feed a whole meal, or feed some HC, and the number bumps up to 52, is that the cat’s natural end-of-cycle rise, or is it food spike? What if it is food spike? Then if you shoot the 52, when the food wears off he might drop back to the 40’s (and when insulin kicks in a couple of hours later, you might have a problem). If the 52 is the cat’s natural rise, then he will probably keep rising for the next few hours until insulin kicks in. If you can’t tell whether the number is food spike or natural rise, it’s safest to wait. Your data will help you here. Study the spreadsheet. How much food spike does the cat usually get? How many hours after the shot does the insulin’s onset usually occur in this cat? At what number is the cat likely to be when onset occurs? If the cat does drop, how easy/hard is it to regain control of the numbers? How carb sensitive is he?
  • Test often (every 15-20 minutes, or at most every 30 minutes). You want to catch the rise the minute it starts. With most of our cats, once they start to rise they will really zoom. You want to get the insulin in as soon as possible, because it will be another 2-3 hours before the insulin kicks in and you don’t want to let the cycle get too far ahead of you.
Perhaps the most important guideline in shooting low is that any time you shoot your lowest ever number, you should get a +1 and +2 to give you an idea of how the cycle will go. If the +1 is not higher than PS, or if +2 is much lower than PS, that means “pay attention” over the next few hours. Those tests will also help you become even more data ready for the next time you are presented with a low preshot reading.

Using the overlap by shooting low is a great way to take advantage of Lantus/Levemir’s long, flat cycles, once you have learned to do so safely.

~ written by Libby and Lucy
 
Did you see the link I shared? I am reproducing from there:

How to Deal with Low Preshot Numbers (the following guidelines apply to those following the Tight Regulation Protocol only):
You just tested your cat’s preshot number, and there is a much lower than usual number staring back at you. What do you do?

There is no one-size-fits all answer, but there are some general guidelines. As with everything else, each cat is different (ECID) and each caregiver is different too.

The short answer is that most kitties can be shot at +12, almost regardless of the number, once you are data ready to do so. The exception is that shooting 30s or 40s is not recommended for most cats, so if a cat is lower then usually the best option is to wait until they are at a shootable number to shoot. What constitutes a shootable number will vary by cat, but we don't suggest or recommend shooting a preshot number less than 50. While you’re waiting, the depot is draining, so you want to get the insulin in as soon as it makes sense to shoot.

If it is your first time shooting green, then we will likely suggest that you stall the first time, even if the number is 80-100. That will let you collect data on what your cat will do when you stall. One thing you can do if you are having a low cycle is to get a +10 and +11. Those will give you a good idea of how quickly the cat’s numbers are rising (or not) when preshot time arrives.

Beyond the general guidelines, there are other factors we consider when we are helping someone with a low preshot.
  • If the low preshot is not part of that cat’s normal pattern or there is reason to think something might be wrong, we will be more conservative.
  • If the cat is not a food spiker or tends to have an early onset/early nadir then they may not want to shoot as low. If the cat has a late nadir, then they will HAVE to learn to shoot low.
  • We will also be more conservative in some cases because of the person – if you are not able to monitor then you want to be more careful, or if you are not sure that you can get back to the board to keep us updated throughout the cycle. Trust me, if you shoot low, we will be watching for your updates and we will worry if we don’t see them.
  • We have to be a lot more careful with the cats who eat only dry food, because they don’t have access to the tools the rest of us use to keep our cats safe.
  • Also, when it comes to very low preshots, there is an unwritten rule that whoever helps that person shoot low should expect to sit with them through any low parts of the cycle. There have been times when I knew a cat’s number was likely shootable, but I also knew that I could not be around to help if the shot resulted in low numbers later in the cycle. For safety’s sake, if I could not find someone else who would be available to support for the next several hours, I would most likely suggest that the shot be reduced or skipped. I will not encourage someone to shoot low and then abandon them.
  • There are a lot of other scenarios, and you always want to keep your cat in mind.
Some general rules when stalling (ECID):
  • 50s or higher – don’t feed. The number will bump up on its own soon due to the insulin wearing off.
  • 40s or lower – you have a couple of choices.
    • When 40s occur at the end of the cycle, it can be beneficial to withhold food and test in 15-20 minutes to determine if kitty is on the rise or hasn’t reached nadir yet.
    • If they are hanging in the 40s for a while, or if they are still dropping, it is ok to feed a tsp or two of LC and retest. This is very tricky. You want to avoid feeding too much while you’re waiting for them to go over 50, because you don’t want to artificially inflate the number with food.
      • Example: if kitty is 43 and you feed a whole meal, or feed some HC, and the number bumps up to 52, is that the cat’s natural end-of-cycle rise, or is it food spike? What if it is food spike? Then if you shoot the 52, when the food wears off he might drop back to the 40’s (and when insulin kicks in a couple of hours later, you might have a problem). If the 52 is the cat’s natural rise, then he will probably keep rising for the next few hours until insulin kicks in. If you can’t tell whether the number is food spike or natural rise, it’s safest to wait. Your data will help you here. Study the spreadsheet. How much food spike does the cat usually get? How many hours after the shot does the insulin’s onset usually occur in this cat? At what number is the cat likely to be when onset occurs? If the cat does drop, how easy/hard is it to regain control of the numbers? How carb sensitive is he?
  • Test often (every 15-20 minutes, or at most every 30 minutes). You want to catch the rise the minute it starts. With most of our cats, once they start to rise they will really zoom. You want to get the insulin in as soon as possible, because it will be another 2-3 hours before the insulin kicks in and you don’t want to let the cycle get too far ahead of you.
Perhaps the most important guideline in shooting low is that any time you shoot your lowest ever number, you should get a +1 and +2 to give you an idea of how the cycle will go. If the +1 is not higher than PS, or if +2 is much lower than PS, that means “pay attention” over the next few hours. Those tests will also help you become even more data ready for the next time you are presented with a low preshot reading.

Using the overlap by shooting low is a great way to take advantage of Lantus/Levemir’s long, flat cycles, once you have learned to do so safely.

~ written by Libby and Lucy

Thanks I read it several times and also before the shot but it is general guidelines.
 
In our sticky it is not mention something for BG 50–100 mg/dL described in Roomp K, Rand JS. Management of diabetic cats with long-acting insulin. Vet Clin North Am Small Anim Pract 2013;43(2):251–66?
Should I search somewhere in our forum regarding low -preshot numbers?
I'm not sure what exactly you're looking for.
To my understanding, this forum's TR is slightly modified from the Roomp & Rand protocol.

As Bhooma said "with experience any number above 50 is shootable without stalling"

If you're not comfortable with shooting low numbers there's also the following option:
"50s or higher - don't feed. The number will bump up on its own soon due to the insulin wearing off.
Test often every 15-20 minutes. You want to catch up the rise the moment it starts"
 
Perhaps what you mean is to see what other options you have instead of giving a full dose when you can't monitor enough..
To skip or give a reduced dose?
 
Perhaps what you mean is to see what other options you have instead of giving a full dose when you can't monitor enough..
To skip or give a reduced dose?
Hi again Yanna, I am looking for all options and steps for low pre-shots as Kokkinoulis it seems that has some days his nadir at pre-shot time. There are differend approaches for these low pre-shots. When I stalled the pre-shot dose the BG numbers were not increased as the insulin it wears off but they remain almost the same.
 
Hi again Yanna, I am looking for all options and steps for low pre-shots as Kokkinoulis it seems that has some days his nadir at pre-shot time. There are differend approaches for these low pre-shots. When I stalled the pre-shot dose the BG numbers were not increased as the insulin it wears off but they remain almost the same.
Yes, after the nadir, insulin action wears off and numbers start to rise. However, nadirs can and do move around. They tend to be later in bounce clearing cycles. In the case of some cats the nadir can be at preshot or even later. What you saw today was Kokki having a nadir around +13, which is why numbers continued to drop after +12 when you stalled without food. Till a caregiver gets comfortable with shooting lower preshots, we suggest stalling (whether that be between 50 and 100 or higher) but there are times when numbers will drop and not rise. With experience and data, you are able to get more confident to shoot lower prehsots without stalling.
 
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