1-3 Tiger AMPS Hi, 457+2,342+4,358+7,399+8 PMPS 454

Deb and Tiger

Deb and Tiger

Member Since 2023
https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/thr...5-165-7-140-8-5-379-11-pmps-458-404-2.285211/

Rough night because of Tigers tummy troubles.
He always gets a small amount of kibble at 3am because of tummy issues. His tummy can’t get completely empty or he gets sick. Last night he didn’t respond when the auto feeder dropped and never ate it until 6am, which was too long to go for him without eating. He jumped up on the bed and proceeded to vomit immediately after eating. I felt so sorry for him

after he gets sick I normally wait a bit and give a few kibble to get a bit in his tummy, which I did. Not sure how all this affected his numbers but the first priority is to get the tummy back on track.

I realize now his tummy must have been bothering him yesterday when he was acting a bit off. I should have followed my instinct to give an extra cerenia yesterday but I didn’t. I did give him one this morning and hopefully can get him feeling better. He did eat most his breakfast and he’s drinking more water because of tummy and his numbers. We did give him his insulin.

I am not sure but I think he seems to not be as hungry when his numbers are lower. From what I’ve read this is normal. Not sure how I will get him to eat something during the night as his numbers go down. Will have to figure it out..

A nap is on my agenda today!
 
Jason - Kona's Dad said:
Good morning, Deb! Is Tiger on a good probiotic? I wonder if that will help some with his tummy issues?
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Hi Jason! No he is not. We tried one before and he would have nothing to do with it. When I put it on the food none of the 3 cats we had at the time would touch it. I think it came on because of trying all the different LC foods. Too much too quick….ill have to go slow with the new foods from now on. The cerenia is helping now. He’s looking for food and even batted his mouse once or twice. Just will take a day or two. I should have seen the signs yesterday.
Thx!
 
Basic's Mom said:
I know I've mentioned it before, but you may want to ask the vet for ondansetron. You can give it with the cerenia. It is an excellent antinausea med that works excellent for cats. I know it really changed things for my cat where cerenia really didn't.

Glad he is feeling better after his rough night and morning.
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Sybil might be onto something, I wonder if you can be proactive and get the ondansetron just to have ready to go and on hand should he not improve in the next day or two.

Im a big fan of getting whatever and everything you can from the vet just to have on-hand in emergencies. We all know what a pain it is sometimes to get scripts made, filled, and picked up.

Please know, I have absolutely zero experience with this nausea and vommiting, but I was just randomly reading another post and stumbled on this note by @Sienne and Gabby (GA) and thought I’d reiterate.

“As an FYI, some cats need to be prescribed both Cerenia and ondansetron to get nausea under control. Cerenia (maropitant) was specifically developed for pets -- initially for car sickness in dogs. It helps with nausea and has anti-inflammatory properties. Ondansatron (or better known by its popular name, Zofran) isa human medication that was developed for nausea and vomiting resulting from chemotherapy. Their pharmacology is different and they can be given in tandem.”
 
Basic's Mom said:
I know I've mentioned it before, but you may want to ask the vet for ondansetron. You can give it with the cerenia. It is an excellent antinausea med that works excellent for cats. I know it really changed things for my cat where cerenia really didn't.

Glad he is feeling better after his rough night and morning.
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thanks Sybil!
I will have to ask her about it. I have often said I wish there was a Rolaid for cats. Most times I think it would work. Last night was a little more severe because it was yellow along with food that came up. The vet told me long ago this is bial released when he is empty and cerenia would help. Other times , most times actually , it’s just a bit of clear and just indigestion and that would definitely help.

thanks Jason for the reference of what the difference is between the two. I thought they did the same thing.
I too, like to have an arsenal on hand to treat my baby.
 
Jason - Kona's Dad said:
Sybil might be onto something, I wonder if you can be proactive and get the ondansetron just to have ready to go and on hand should he not improve in the next day or two.

Im a big fan of getting whatever and everything you can from the vet just to have on-hand in emergencies. We all know what a pain it is sometimes to get scripts made, filled, and picked up.

Please know, I have absolutely zero experience with this nausea and vommiting, but I was just randomly reading another post and stumbled on this note by @Sienne and Gabby (GA) and thought I’d reiterate.

“As an FYI, some cats need to be prescribed both Cerenia and ondansetron to get nausea under control. Cerenia (maropitant) was specifically developed for pets -- initially for car sickness in dogs. It helps with nausea and has anti-inflammatory properties. Ondansatron (or better known by its popular name, Zofran) isa human medication that was developed for nausea and vomiting resulting from chemotherapy. Their pharmacology is different and they can be given in tandem.”
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I’m in the same camp, have the meds on hand!! So smart, Jason!!
Sending you a hug, Deb.:bighug::bighug: So sorry for the rough night for your sweet Tiger. Hoping Tiger feels much better fast!! :bighug::cat::bighug:
 
Ok soooo feeling uneasy about Tiger being sick and all the recommendations about checking ketones, we decided to visit the vet.
His ketones were 0 and all tests good with no signs of any pain. They gave him another 1/2 dose of cerenia and I asked about the other nausea drug. Decided to wait on it because the cerenia is working.

$300 poorer but we have ease of mind. Tiger cried for dinner as soon as we got home, so he got fed a bit early….bad mom!
I was just glad he was asking for food and a tiny bit of my chicken ( home cooked, no seasoning) because he was up in my face begging….bad mom again!

I think we both feel better and he was just awesome at the vet!
 
Deb and Tiger said:
Ok soooo feeling uneasy about Tiger being sick and all the recommendations about checking ketones, we decided to visit the vet.
His ketones were 0 and all tests good with no signs of any pain. They gave him another 1/2 dose of cerenia and I asked about the other nausea drug. Decided to wait on it because the cerenia is working.

$300 poorer but we have ease of mind. Tiger cried for dinner as soon as we got home, so he got fed a bit early….bad mom!
I was just glad he was asking for food and a tiny bit of my chicken ( home cooked, no seasoning) because he was up in my face begging….bad mom again!

I think we both feel better and he was just awesome at the vet!
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I’m going to jump on the ondansetron bandwagon. Ondansetron and cerenia can be given together as they address nausea from different modalities. Cerenia can only be given once a day; ondansetron can be given 2-3 times a day.

I’m also wondering if a freeze-dried food might be better as a an early morning snack. Gracie had IBD and would throw up bile on an empty stomach early in the morning without a snack. The freeze dried chicken is very, very low carb but does a good job of neutralizing acid.

I’m glad you got his ketones checked with his BG so high. He’s due for a 0.25u dose increase on Jan 5.
 
Marje and Gracie said:
I’m going to jump on the ondansetron bandwagon. Ondansetron and cerenia can be given together as they address nausea from different modalities. Cerenia can only be given once a day; ondansetron can be given 2-3 times a day.

I’m also wondering if a freeze-dried food might be better as a an early morning snack. Gracie had IBD and would throw up bile on an empty stomach early in the morning without a snack. The freeze dried chicken is very, very low carb but does a good job of neutralizing acid.

I’m glad you got his ketones checked with his BG so high. He’s due for a 0.25u dose increase on Jan 5.
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he does love chicken so that may work for him. Where do you get that? Ty for the idea.
As for the dose increase, is it possible to wait another week since we have had so much trouble with his food and tummy? I would like to see if we can level all that out and then up his dose. I feel like we took a step back with it. I’m wondering if the dose is not so wron as the food he is eating and it takes time to change over…
 
Deb and Tiger said:
ok I see them at PetSmart locally in the smaller bag. Will order some tomorrow and try them. Do you just use them as a treat or are they okay to put a small amount in feeder instead of kibble?
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I used them to successfully ween Kona off from being a kibble junkie as we transitioned completely to wet food.

I use them universally to this day. Treats, toppers, BG snacks to ride a cycle, and to supplement food sometimes. In feeders too.
 
Deb, insulin is a hormone. It is not hurting Tiger to increase his insulin when he is still reaching bgs in the 500s. It is actually dangerous for him to be in the numbers he is currently in for extended periods of time. Hence, your vet appointment today.

It is important to understand why the insulin is important for Tiger. It is just as important as food and water to our cats.

You would be doing a disservice to your cat by not increasing his dose as directed. Try to remember normal on a handheld is 50-120. Your libre would most likely be even lower because they typically record bgs higher than a handheld. Tiger is far from the numbers that his body needs to be at.

Yes, I've read people using the freeze dried treats as a replacement for kibble in the feeder. I'm sure it is probably a tablespoon or two. Can't imagine it would be a ½ C.

I'm very happy he was negative for ketones. Such a relief.
 
What % of food is he getting now and at what times? I don't see that on his SS. I didn't realize you were back to feeding him wet other than the LC. How much hc kibble does he get a day? I know of one feeding sometime throughout the night, but at what + in the PM cycle is it falling for him?
 
Deb and Tiger said:
he does love chicken so that may work for him. Where do you get that? Ty for the idea.
As for the dose increase, is it possible to wait another week since we have had so much trouble with his food and tummy? I would like to see if we can level all that out and then up his dose. I feel like we took a step back with it. I’m wondering if the dose is not so wron as the food he is eating and it takes time to change over…
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I buy Whole Life from Chewy’s. I would just give Gracie a few pieces so maybe a tbsp max.

I would not delay a dose increase. Leaving him at high BGs can cause insulin resistance and glucose toxicity so it would take more insulin in the long run to bring his BG down.
 
Basic's Mom said:
Deb, insulin is a hormone. It is not hurting Tiger to increase his insulin when he is still reaching bgs in the 500s. It is actually dangerous for him to be in the numbers he is currently in for extended periods of time. Hence, your vet appointment today.

It is important to understand why the insulin is important for Tiger. It is just as important as food and water to our cats.

You would be doing a disservice to your cat by not increasing his dose as directed. Try to remember normal on a handheld is 50-120. Your libre would most likely be even lower because they typically record bgs higher than a handheld. Tiger is far from the numbers that his body needs to be at.

Yes, I've read people using the freeze dried treats as a replacement for kibble in the feeder. I'm sure it is probably a tablespoon or two. Can't imagine it would be a ½ C.

I'm very happy he was negative for ketones. Such a relief.
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I will give you a few answers now but going without sleep for most of the night, again, I will answer your questions later when I am more coherent.
The reason for the vet appointment was his stomach problems, not diabetes, which is my priority right now. He needs to eat every 6 hours or this happens.
I never got him changed over to LC , I was trying to but he revolted, see notes on ss for 12/31.
To get him to eat I gave him 15% which is all he wants/will eat now. I need him to eat, even for his shots. We have been changing it so much, I have not entered it on the ss.

as for the libre, we tested it last night at the vet, compared to handheld it was 4 points difference.

I will go into more of your question later when I can get my thoughts straight. I do appreciate your comments but I have to make decisions that are best for him by weighing all the info and input I have, including from the vet. More on that later.

thanks for the input!
 
Deb, I'm not going to argue with you about Tiger and a dose increase. You are following a dosing protocol that is less strict than the other. This dosing method gives plenty of days for your cat to adjust to a new dose.

Your comment above " Ok soooo feeling uneasy about Tiger being sick and all the recommendations about checkingketones, we decided to visit the vet." Is why I was under the impression that ketone levels being checked was why you went.

Last we spoke in depth about food ,Tiger loved the low carb and was refusing other canned food.

All of us have made many changes in our cats lives especially at the beginning of diagnosis. We are usually in these shoes because of the food we feed them. Food is typically the first change to make. While I appreciate Tiger has different needs because of his stomach issues it doesn't mean he stays of food that is awful for him. You just need to keep looking for a low carb food that he does love.

And about his stomach, what is the reason for his stomach problems? What have the vets determined is his GI issues? I'm asking because the cerenia isn't helping him. He wouldn't still be having all the issues he does if the medicine was working. Hence why we've explained that adding ondansetron may be a game changer. I'm not sure why you are hesitant to try it, but that's your right. I just feel like it would help your cat. Yesterday this all made sense to you. Or at least your comments reflected that you understand this could help and you were getting some from your vet. My previous vet argued with me about getting this med because "cerenia" was enough. She also underdosed my cat with the medication once i finally was given it. I had to take it upon myself to dose my cat properly. After I got this in my cats system, his issues changed, then diminished.

Because your libre is only 4 points off of a bg, even more of a reason that an increase is made. I can't stress to you enough how bad for Tiger it is to have these elevated BGs for this long. I don't know how long my cat was diabetic before he was diagnosed. It could have been 2 months or even 6 months. My point is you don't know when Tiger became diabetic (dx 10/30/23) or how long his bgs have been so extremely elevated. You can see them now though. You can change them now too. It is up to you.

Why were you up late again last night? Just curious. His bgs weren't low enough for concern.

We've talked before about low numbers being scary. You are going to have to respectfully get over that fear though. Never be complacent with low numbers, but understand what true low numbers are. You aren't seeing them currently.

Remember 50-120 is normal bg range for cats.
 
Lots of questions. I appreciate your concern, I really do. And I do understand where you are coming from. You need to try to understand mine.
The tummy troubles have been around for years and we have done all kinds of tests, especially since we lost his sister to a cancer that attacked her intestines and fought a long battle with that. These cats were born from a starving stray cat and left in my yard to fend for themselves. Tiger has been through a lot and is naturally nervous and easily stressed from whatever he went thru before I could get him inside. I am really the only one he trusts and even then he is still nervous and jumpy if I merely move too fast.

I am doing the best I can with him and I have to listen to his vet also. Every cat is different and I can’t just listen to posts on a forum as my only source for treating him. I have to take it all in and most of all take what Tiger himself is telling me, and make decisions.

I do understand his numbers are high, especially according to this forums info, however when talking to his vets, the numbers to be expected as ideal are way too low, even dangerous. He has had some good numbers, which show up hours after any food. The really high numbers are either right after food, or after the insulin effectiveness has lowed, whether related to food or time. Which tells me the food is indeed the culprit. However, after 2 days of LC/No carb foods he refused to eat it. Which has lead to now spotty, finicky eating and to stomach problems. It will take time to slowly change over.

Yes I asked about the drug you told me about. The vet said yes they use it mostly for canines and that it can be dangerous to cats if used too often. Again all cats are different but…the cerenia has worked for years and i took a wait and see approach.

we can spend hours debating all this but I don’t think it helps anything. I am too tired. As for last night, I was up making sure he wasn’t getting sick and that he ate something around 3am. I had to physically give him food in his bed to get something in him.

you see it is not all about the diabetes but his health in total. That’s why at this point I am choosing to hold the dose as is, until we get h stomach under control. He has to eat or I can’t even give him insulin.

I do love that you are so concerned about my baby and me, and. I do understand your beliefs, no need to try to scare me more than I am already. Try to understand where I am at this time. Thanks
 
I'm not trying to scare you at all. That was never my intention.

Yes, you do need to do what is best for your cat. Yes, it is about overall health, not just diabetes.

My cat and his littermates were found in the same manner.

I'll leave you with this, had I listened to strictly my previous vet when my cat got sick, he wouldn't be here.

Nothing that is promoted here is dangerous. That is an insult to this forum.
 
@Deb and Tiger
@Basic's Mom

I’m a bit concerned as to the direction of this conversation.

When a kitty has another issue or two going on along with the diabetes, we have to respect what the CG can do in feeding the cat. I had a very, very dear friend here and she insisted on giving her cat dry food. She knew the downsides of it with FD but her cat was very stubborn about giving up that dry food. We have to respect what CGs determine is the best feeding approach for their cat, all things considered. Deb understands that LC canned food is best for a FD but we are not walking in her shoes. There’s an old saying, “the best food for a cat is the one it will eat”.

On ondansetron vs cerenia: cerenia is the one that is more of a concern long-term, Deb, and there is a lot of data out there regarding this. When it is given orally to cats, it is off- label to give it to them for more than fourteen days. Having said that, many of us here use it or have used it long-term in our cats with no side effects and there is also information out there which supports this. Ondansetron is very safe to give for a very, very long time. I’m not sure where your vet is confusing that.

On BGs in the 200-300s: I asked my own vet why vets state this even though they absolutely know normal BGs for the cat are much lower. She said it is because they don’t have the time to invest to ensure clients keep their cats safe. They know if they tell you 200-300 is ok, your cat won’t hypo. They can’t be there 24/7 to help you with lower numbers. But, let me be clear, it is not good for any cat to consistently be in these high numbers. Anything over 250 (and some cats much lower) is above renal threshold and can affect the health of the kidneys.

Each member has to decide whether their faith is in their vet or whether we can be trusted. We’ve been doing this every day, 24/7, for decades and have gotten over 500 cats in remission. I doubt any vet can make that claim. No cats have passed away from following our methods of regulation but we’ve had three cats this week pass away from bad vet advice. We work hard at safety safety safety.

We have given Deb information and she is the one to decide the best route for Tiger. We might not agree, but we are here to support.
 
I wasn't trying to be pushy, I'm simply concerned. I wasn't trying to make you feel bad or scare you. None of that was my intent.

It was hard to read the information your vet provided after discussing this subject (the lack of knowledge vets have regarding FD) at length in other post today and then seeing the last death that was posted caused by vet error. I'm sorry that I allowed my emotions to spill over into your post.

I'm sorry if I made you feel any of those things, Deb. It truly wasn't my intention. I don't need to keep offering you advice either, especially if the manner in which I am doing so is causing you additional stress. Stressing you wasn't my intention either. You have enough going on like all of us, I'm not here to add more stress. I'm here to help, but not to push myself or help onto you or anyone.
 
Basic's Mom said:
I wasn't trying to be pushy, I'm simply concerned. I wasn't trying to make you feel bad or scare you. None of that was my intent.

It was hard to read the information your vet provided after discussing this subject (the lack of knowledge vets have regarding FD) at length in other post today and then seeing the last death that was posted caused by vet error. I'm sorry that I allowed my emotions to spill over into your post.

I'm sorry if I made you feel any of those things, Deb. It truly wasn't my intention. I don't need to keep offering you advice either, especially if the manner in which I am doing so is causing you additional stress. Stressing you wasn't my intention either. You have enough going on like all of us, I'm not here to add more stress. I'm here to help, but not to push myself or help onto you or anyone.
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Thank you, Sybil.
 
Hey Deb :bighug: On the food/tummy issues... looking back at some of your posts. I see this great question from @Snickers and Chrissy that I don't think I found was answered. My sincere apologies if this was already addressed and missed it. It's hard to be proactive sometimes looking through all the back posts to see if questions one might have was already answered or not.

Snickers and Chrissy said:
Just in case it helps, is it possible that Tiger has a food allergy? I only ask because my Snickers had tummy troubles for like 3 to 4 months after we first got her. Like you, ultrasounds showed nothing. Ditto blood work and x-rays. It turned out she was allergic to poultry. Removed that from her diet, and her tummy issues cleared up in like two weeks.
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Have you and/or your vet ruled out food allergies for the tummy issues over the years?
 
Jason - Kona's Dad said:
Hey Deb :bighug: On the food/tummy issues... looking back at some of your posts. I see this great question from @Snickers and Chrissy that I don't think I found was answered. My sincere apologies if this was already addressed and missed it. It's hard to be proactive sometimes looking through all the back posts to see if questions one might have was already answered or not.



Have you and/or your vet ruled out food allergies for the tummy issues over the years?
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Jason you’re right, I never addressed this and it is something to consider, especially since this flared up after trying all these new foods that are LC. He hasn’t had it like this in years.
Not sure how they find out what is the food they’re allergic too.
Thanks
 
Deb and Tiger said:
Jason you’re right, I never addressed this and it is something to consider, especially since this flared up after trying all these new foods that are LC. He hasn’t had it like this in years.
Not sure how they find out what is the food they’re allergic too.
Thanks
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I think the first step is to find a novel protein that he has never had and will actually eat, like kangaroo or venison, maybe rabbit…

I don’t have experience with this. Limited knowledge, I apologize, but I’ll try to research and get back to you with some ideas to consider.
 
Deb and Tiger said:
Jason you’re right, I never addressed this and it is something to consider, especially since this flared up after trying all these new foods that are LC. He hasn’t had it like this in years.
Not sure how they find out what is the food they’re allergic too.
Thanks
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You might want to try Nutriscan. Dr. Dodds is well-known and I’ve used her Nutriscan and Hemopet services many times over the years.

Deb and Tiger said:
Ty Marje and Sybil for your replies.
I never said I wouldn’t raise the dose ever, I just need to get thru this tummy bout first.
I do know vets aren’t right about everything too.
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Thank you. I am not trying to push you into something you aren’t comfortable with. We are here to teach and support as I previously said; you hold the syringe.
 
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