? 6/6 Ivy, Early Cycle Drops- Add MC? AMPS 200, 176 +1, 166 +2, 141 +3, 272 +6, 311 +9

Staci & Ivy

Staci & Ivy

Member Since 2022
https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/thr...-i-do-to-stop-drop-again.278292/#post-3077947

Status update: Currently day 4 of 3.25 dose Lantus, been very deep dives past few days. (Still recovering from broken leg surgery 1 week ago, on pain meds, etc).- see prior posts

**Ivy starts to drop (at +12) then within the first 1/2 to one hour after Lantus shot, continues STEEP drop until (onset) around +2, and then can drop more, longer.

*This morning I tried a new approach, at Breakfast mixed her LC food with 1/2 TSP 12% MC .

At +1, +2, +2.5, +3 (when she dropped) fed small 1 TBSP LC snack (Added 1/4 - 1/2 tsp Med Carb (Fancy Feast Beef Feast in Gravy Grilled (think it's 12% MC) mixed in with her normal LC homemade food.

She then bounced up and down (but not too EXTREME/ or under 100 bg levels, HUGE drops she's been doing after her shot of recent weeks). She stayed over 100 BG.

All morning BG was 140's to mid 250. Now, at +6 she's at 276 (on Libre 3).

Normally, her 6% LC diet doesn't give her too much of a bump at all.

Does it seem this is a good strategy to keep her to NOT have these bomber dives then high bounces, which usually go sometimes until after onset and can be until +4?

Thanks.
@Wendy&Neko @Bandit's Mom @Sienne and Gabby (GA) @Bron and Sheba (GA)
 
tiffmaxee said:
Last night and yesterday morning there was a big drop but not today. It seems slow and steady. If the +2 is lower try higher lc rather than mc, 7-9%.
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Hi Elise, i’m pretty sure the only reason there was not a steep drop was because I used MC added to her LC.
(I only have FF pate 3% in the house.)
Is there anything else I could try? @tiffmaxee
 
I think sometimes with the Libre monitoring being so available and that you can catch BG readings so frequently, it can also be overwhelming since there is so much data. If I could make a suggestion? I would say try not to focus on the messaging that the libre shows you, yes take the datapoints and track them, but remember those Libres were meant for humans, so of course it can be alarming for the « system » to tell you « steep drop ».

Let’s say if you were only working off of preshot, and +2, +3, +6, +10, then PMPS yesterday would that make you feel less panicky? Sometimes with Lantus you can get a double dip, where after they have reached nadir, they go up, then, they come down or have a drop in BG to next preshot.

When Mav was on Lantus, I always used to pay closer attention especially when early in the cycle, I had from one hour to the next, more than an allowable meter variance (20%) in drop. And certainly took into consideration what the previous cycle’s numbers were, and whether he was still dropping into preshot and not getting much of a food bump.

It does take some time to see how your own cat is responding to insulin and carbs (when you feed and what % carbs), and when you experiment with food early in the cycle, give it some time to see what is working and what isn’t so perhaps stick with the MC feeding for a few cycles and see if that flattens Ivy out, and then go from there.
 
tiffmaxee said:
Last night and yesterday morning there was a big drop but not today. It seems slow and steady. If the +2 is lower try higher lc rather than mc, 7-9%.
Click to expand...
*Is there a 7-9% recommended food? I don't really see one on the charts, the pate's are all lower than 7% and then medium seems to be 12 and higher carb.
@tiffmaxee
 
Christie & Maverick said:
I think sometimes with the Libre monitoring being so available and that you can catch BG readings so frequently, it can also be overwhelming since there is so much data. If I could make a suggestion? I would say try not to focus on the messaging that the libre shows you, yes take the datapoints and track them, but remember those Libres were meant for humans, so of course it can be alarming for the « system » to tell you « steep drop ».

Let’s say if you were only working off of preshot, and +2, +3, +6, +10, then PMPS yesterday would that make you feel less panicky? Sometimes with Lantus you can get a double dip, where after they have reached nadir, they go up, then, they come down or have a drop in BG to next preshot.

When Mav was on Lantus, I always used to pay closer attention especially when early in the cycle, I had from one hour to the next, more than an allowable meter variance (20%) in drop. And certainly took into consideration what the previous cycle’s numbers were, and whether he was still dropping into preshot and not getting much of a food bump.

It does take some time to see how your own cat is responding to insulin and carbs (when you feed and what % carbs), and when you experiment with food early in the cycle, give it some time to see what is working and what isn’t so perhaps stick with the MC feeding for a few cycles and see if that flattens Ivy out, and then go from there.
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Thanks, @Christie & Maverick I do notice with Ivy also, her EARLY cycle hours are rocky with Steep drops. She def does NOT get a Low carb food bump.

I do understand what you point out with the Libre, lots of data...yes!

I can't seem to find a higher recommended LC (7-9% carb) to use, any brands or specific product name recommendations?
Today's food experiment seemed to keep the steep drop from happening before AM onset, but later in the day, she spiked upward.
I would guess she's gonna come crashing/bouncing down as a result later on.

When I use a MC snack before onset, should I mix it with her LC regular food or feed MC alone?

Thanks!
 
Natural Balance used to have a turkey and giblets formulation that was 9%, the chicken was 6%, which I used, although I wonder if the formulation has recently changed. I haven’t tried many of the foods on the list, since my boys prefer pates, and some weren’t available in Canada, but you can scan through and see if any might work for you.

https://catinfo.org/docs/CatFoodProteinFatCarbPhosphorusChart.pdf

Or, as you have astutely noted, you can blend up your own approx 7-9% by mixing some of your LC with your MC;)​
 
Christie & Maverick said:
Natural Balance used to have a turkey and giblets formulation that was 9%, the chicken was 6%, which I used, although I wonder if the formulation has recently changed. I haven’t tried many of the foods on the list, since my boys prefer pates, and some weren’t available in Canada, but you can scan through and see if any might work for you.

https://catinfo.org/docs/CatFoodProteinFatCarbPhosphorusChart.pdf

Or, as you have astutely noted, you can blend up your own approx 7-9% by mixing some of your LC with your MC;)​
Click to expand...
Thanks for the suggestion! I wonder what the actual carb would be using my 6% food with 12-13% MC??
 
The whole carb thing is another every cat is different. It depends on how carb sensitive your cat is so trial and error to find that out. Mixing works well as you can start with adding g just a little mc and more if you dint get the results you need.
 
Avoderm, Blue pate style and a couple of Freedom foods, Canidae, Chicken Soup for the Soul, FreshPet, some Friskies (and that's up to page 22 of 61) are all in the range you're looking for on the link that Christie provided.
 
Chris & China (GA) said:
If you mix equal amounts of 6% with a 12%, you'll have a 9%, so 1tsp 6% plus 1tsp 12% equals 2tsp of 9%

You just add the 2 carb percentages and then divide by 2.

6+12=18
18/2 = 9
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That’s so interesting @Chris & China (GA) Thank you!
I have been adding a tiny amount of MC to her 6% LC when using the MC anyway
(So I suppose I was actually lowering a carb of the MC by doing that)???

So my next question is this…Did that small amount of MC in her AM cycle & her system cause her to be so high through the 2nd half of AM cycle yesterday? Her PM cycle was totally in 300s.
(Watching On Libre 3)

I gave a very small amount (1/4 tsp) 12 % mc mixed in with her meal & 1 Tbsp snacks @+1,2,3 yesterday AM cycle.
At PM cycle added 1/4 tsp MC in main meal only, lc was given at snacks +1,2,3 only, since she was higher in pm cycle before onset.

The last 2 cycles (yesterday), she climbed high into 300s and remained there overnight.
*She was even higher this AMPS than I’ve seen her lately (305).
*She’s now just dropped down to 227 at +1. (Debating If I give smidge of mc to slow the drop till onset).

Do I keep adding the small amount of MC to her the early part of a cycle as insulin takes effect? Will it keep her much higher through her entire cycle? (seems to be making the insulin work harder through the whole cycle)
**Again, I’m attempting to keep her from these deep dives as onset occurs for her.

Today is day 5 on this dose of 3.25 Lantus. *I’m just not sure if adding the MC yesterday has raised her BGs or the dose is being ineffective for her.

Still trying to figure out how to handle this all. Thank you.
@Angela & Cleo @Bandit's Mom @Wendy&Neko @Bron and Sheba (GA) @tiffmaxee @Sienne and Gabby (GA)
 
I think Christie's comments about the amount of data from the Libre is applicable. I suspect you're overthinking Ivy's numbers due to the shear volume of data. Ivy is bouncing. When she drops into normal range numbers, her liver and pancreas overreact and her numbers shoot back up. The more time she spends in better numbers, the more her body will grow accustomed to being in those numbers. In the meantime, bouncing is a normal part of the process. It's extremely annoying to us but it's not dangerous. If you look at other members' spreadsheets, you're likely to see similar episodes of bouncing.
 
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