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[ANTONELLA]

Hello everyone,
My 17 year old cat just got diagnosed with diabetes. I am so sad and scared and full of anxiety. I strongly believe the food she was eating caused it. Back in may she was very sick with pancreatic and gallbladder stones . Vet put her on hills biome gi canned. I just realized after some research this food has 34% carbs on a dmv. I feel so terrible that i didn’t pay attention earlier. What canned food can I feed her ? Is it true she needs low fat food for her pancreas & gallbladder ? I can’t find low fat high protein low carb canned foods and was hoping for advice. I’m a single mom shift worker so I can’t make raw there is no time. Can I feed her the new food right away as I don’t want to give her anymore of the hills at 34% carbs but I’m scared to make sudden diet changes . Also I cannot get her blood out of her for the testing. I’ve poked her over and over and she doesn’t bleed much and I kissy can’t master it Any help and Advice is greatly appreciated

 

[KarenRamboConan]

Welcome aboard!
We suggest you stick with food that gets less than 10% of its calories from carbohydrates. The charts on Dr. Lisa's site are your new best friends.

 

[ANTONELLA]

Thank you yes I have this chart … are those values in dry matter? do you know ? Also the amount of carbs listed on that chart - are those the percentage of calories from carbs ?

 

[Diane Tyler's Mom GA]

Welcome aboard!
We suggest you stick with food that gets less than 10% of its calories from carbohydrates. The charts on Dr. Lisa's site are your new best friends.

Dr Lisa's chart is %carb on As Fed values.

 

[Diane Tyler's Mom GA]

Hello everyone,
My 17 year old cat just got diagnosed with diabetes. I am so sad and scared and full of anxiety. I strongly believe the food she was eating caused it. Back in may she was very sick with pancreatic and gallbladder stones . Vet put her on hills biome gi canned. I just realized after some research this food has 34% carbs on a dmv. I feel so terrible that i didn’t pay attention earlier. What canned food can I feed her ? Is it true she needs low fat food for her pancreas & gallbladder ? I can’t find low fat high protein low carb canned foods and was hoping for advice. I’m a single mom shift worker so I can’t make raw there is no time. Can I feed her the new food right away as I don’t want to give her anymore of the hills at 34% carbs but I’m scared to make sudden diet changes . Also I cannot get her blood out of her for the testing. I’ve poked her over and over and she doesn’t bleed much and I kissy can’t master it Any help and Advice is greatly appreciated

Welcome Antonella
I can tag a few members for you about

her being very sick with pancreatic and gallbladder stones back in may and what food they might be able to suggest
@Suzanne & Darcy

@Sienne and Gabby (GA)

@Wendy&Neko

 

[Diane Tyler's Mom GA]

@ANTONELLA
If you can fill out what we call our signature that will be helpful,it's at the end of everyone's post in gray

To set up your signature which you will see is at the end of everyone's post in gray, click on your name up top and then tap on the word signature and add this information

• Add info we need to help you:
  • Caregiver & kitty's name
  • DX: Date
  • Name of Insulin (do not include dose or frequency)
  • Name of your meter
  • Diet: "LC wet" or "dry food" or "combo"
  • Dosing: TR or SLGS or Custom (if applicable)
  • DKA or other recent health issue (if applicable)
  • Acro, IAA, or Cushings (if applicable)
  • Spreadsheet link. Please put the signature link on the bottom line of your signature information, on its own, so it is easy to find.
  • Please do not put any information about your location in the signature for security reasons. If you wish to add your country location, please add it to your profile.

Be sure to click the 'Save Changes' button at the bottom. If you need help urgently it is important we know these things at a glance. We don’t want to waste valuable time finding out information.

Take a look at mine


We also use a spreadsheet to track our cats BG so we know how the insulin is working and how low they are dropping so we know when to either increase or decrease the dose
We adjust the dose by 0.25 units at a time . We don't adjust the dose by going by the Pre Shots

About the spreadsheet
AMPS - means AM Pre Shot the first test you take in the AM ,you need to withhold food 2 hours before testing so it's not food influenced

Units is where you would put how much insulin you gave
+1 is one hour after giving insulin if you were to test then that's where you enter his _BG number
+2 two hours after giving insulin. ditto
+3 and so on until you get to PMPS - PM pre shot withhold food 2 hours before testing

+1 same as you do for AM cycle

We don't give times because we are all in different time zones that's why we use the + numbers
I'll give you the link to set it up , if you have trouble just ask and we have a member who will gladly do it for you


You can look at any members spreadsheet to see what it looks like, it's at the end of everyone's signature just tap on it

How to set up a spreadsheet
https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/how-to-create-a-spreadsheet.241706/

 

[Diane Tyler's Mom GA]

Also I cannot get her blood out of her for the testing. I’ve poked her over and over and she doesn’t bleed much and I kissy can’t master it Any help and Advice is greatly appreciated

About testing
Always aim for the sweet spot warm the ears up first, you can put rice in a sock and put it in the microwave, test it on the inside of your wrist to be sure it's not to hot, like you would test a babies bottle. You can fill a pill bottle with warm water and roll it on the ears also.Just keep rubbing the ears with your fingers to warm them up

6. As the ears get used to bleeding and grow more capilares, it gets easier to get the amount of blood you need on the first try. If he won’t stand still, you can get the blood onto a clean finger nail and test from there.
When you do get some blood you can try milking the ear.
Get you finger and gently push up toward the blood , more will appear
You will put the cotton round behind his ear in case you poke your finger, after you are done testing you will fold the cotton round over his ear to stop the bleeding , press gently for about 20 seconds until it stops
Get 26 or 28 gauge lancets
A lot of us use the lancets to test freehand
I find it better to see where I'm aiming

A video one of our members posted, she is using a pet meter ,strips too expensive plus you have to code it
A human meter is just fine, most of us use human meters ,that's what our numbers are based on


VIDEO: How to test your cat's blood sugar

 

[Chris & China (GA)]

Is it true she needs low fat food for her pancreas & gallbladder ?

No...this is true for dogs, but cat's process fats very efficiently so it's not the problem it is with dogs.

 

[FrostD]

Welcome!

Chris shared your spreadsheet with me (link here) as I help advise with Vetsulin.

I understand you have a diet change in progress? Or it hasn't started yet? Just want to make sure I have things straight between Facebook and here.

With Vetsulin, we fast for 2 hours, test to get fasting BG, feed, then give insulin 30 minutes later. The reason for this is Vetsulin hits most cats hard and fast, so you want some carbs on board to help soften it.

The 1U dose looks good for now; I understand tonight's 0.5U was because you were worried he didn't eat enough. As long as you can get him to eat about a tablespoon it should be ok to give the dose, but do what you are comfortable with/err on the side of safety.

You can slowly change diet to low carb, but it must be done slowly and when you can test, as it can have a big impact on BG (meaning, we want to go slow to avoid hypo, may need to adjust dose). I strongly recommend stocking.your hypo kit before changing diet.

I know you're in other Feline Diabetes groups. We do advise you pick one and stick with it, as we will all give slightly different advice based on our methods and it will make things difficult for you.

 

[ANTONELLA]

About testing
Always aim for the sweet spot warm the ears up first, you can put rice in a sock and put it in the microwave, test it on the inside of your wrist to be sure it's not to hot, like you would test a babies bottle. You can fill a pill bottle with warm water and roll it on the ears also.Just keep rubbing the ears with your fingers to warm them up

6. As the ears get used to bleeding and grow more capilares, it gets easier to get the amount of blood you need on the first try. If he won’t stand still, you can get the blood onto a clean finger nail and test from there.
When you do get some blood you can try milking the ear.
Get you finger and gently push up toward the blood , more will appear
You will put the cotton round behind his ear in case you poke your finger, after you are done testing you will fold the cotton round over his ear to stop the bleeding , press gently for about 20 seconds until it stops
Get 26 or 28 gauge lancets
A lot of us use the lancets to test freehand
I find it better to see where I'm aiming

A video one of our members posted, she is using a pet meter ,strips too expensive plus you have to code it
A human meter is just fine, most of us use human meters ,that's what our numbers are based on


VIDEO: How to test your cat's blood sugar

Thank you so very much! I mastered it as of the other day

 

[ANTONELLA]

Welcome!

Chris shared your spreadsheet with me (link here) as I help advise with Vetsulin.

I understand you have a diet change in progress? Or it hasn't started yet? Just want to make sure I have things straight between Facebook and here.

With Vetsulin, we fast for 2 hours, test to get fasting BG, feed, then give insulin 30 minutes later. The reason for this is Vetsulin hits most cats hard and fast, so you want some carbs on board to help soften it.

The 1U dose looks good for now; I understand tonight's 0.5U was because you were worried he didn't eat enough. As long as you can get him to eat about a tablespoon it should be ok to give the dose, but do what you are comfortable with/err on the side of safety.

You can slowly change diet to low carb, but it must be done slowly and when you can test, as it can have a big impact on BG (meaning, we want to go slow to avoid hypo, may need to adjust dose). I strongly recommend stocking.your hypo kit before changing diet.

I know you're in other Feline Diabetes groups. We do advise you pick one and stick with it, as we will all give slightly different advice based on our methods and it will make things difficult for you.

Thank you for all the info… yes I am sticking with this group…
I’ve already made a diet change for her I didn’t do it gradually as I was feeding her the hills biome and realized it’s over 32% carbs a can on a dry matter so I couldn’t stand to give her any more … Saturday night I started her right away on the tiki chicken luau consume . It’s very low carb and very high protein. I am worried sick because of her pancreas and gallbladder but I didn’t want to give her another ounce of the biome. I’ve been checking her bs before the shot … she’s been ok…
My vet is completely against the diet change and telling me that I'm making a big mistake & she will run into trouble with her pancreas and gallbladder and kidney .. i am just so mentally drained . I am a single parent and the caninsulin cost a lot of money for me , but now I’m realizing the Lanzar is better … I am not sure whether to change her insulin now or wait … either way I’m sad and out of money.
i am getting used to the spreadsheet , Chris has been so patient and kind helping me but I guess I will need to practice to master it … I am not very tech savvy so I may mess up here and there …
As for tonight yes. I was worried about the dose as she didn’t eat much… but I’m still not sure how it all works with the levels of blood sugar and adjusting the insulin accordingly. My vet has said that I must give the full dose (1.5) every 12 hours , but he did say to check her blood before the shot and if it’s 11 or higher to give the shot … so that’s stuck in my brain / head right now and I am trying to get to how it works with you all here …
I appreciate everyone’s kindness and patience /
Also- with the fasting , I wanted to leave some Young again zero food for her during the day which so many ppl are saying their cat’s went into remission… I need to do this because I work long shifts and I am away from home alot I am also a single parent so unfortunately I don’t have anyone else in my home that could help me with all this … so if I give the YA dry bowl how will I know if she fasted the 2 hours prior to the test at night ? Thanks again

 

[Chris & China (GA)]

Also- with the fasting , I wanted to leave some Young again zero food for her during the day which so many ppl are saying their cat’s went into remission… I need to do this because I work long shifts and I am away from home alot I am also a single parent so unfortunately I don’t have anyone else in my home that could help me with all this … so if I give the YA dry bowl how will I know if she fasted the 2 hours prior to the test at night ? Thanks again

First of all, Young Again isn't anything magic. Many cats can't tolerate it because it can cause horrible gas and diarrhea. It's actually better for all cats to be eating low carb canned, no matter what the people at Young Again say. Kibble is kibble, even if they did find a way to make a low carb variety. Young Again comes very close to guaranteeing that if you feed only their food, your cat will go into remission and if you feed anything else, you're somehow limiting your cat's chances.

Now that I have that out of my system, one thing that would probably be very useful to you would be an auto-feeder like the Cat Mate 500. You can program it to open and offer several small snacks during the day while you're at work and at night when you're trying to sleep. Then you program it to open to an empty slot at least 2 hours before testing/feeding time so you know she hasn't eaten for those 2 hours. It comes with 2 ice packs to help keep canned food fresh too.

It's saved the sanity of a lot of sugarcat moms and dads!

 

[FrostD]

Ok. In addition to what Chris said - that 1.5U was based on higher carb food. It can be dangerous now that the food has been switched.

The 1U today looked good, it leaves you wiggle room as the carbs come out of his system. It can take up to two weeks to see the full effects, but since it was wet food it will probably be sooner than that.

He's actually having more gentle results with Vetsulin than most cats, occasionally a cat does do well on it (mine was one of them). I wouldn't rush to Lantus just yet.

Just try to get midcycle tests about 4-5 hours after the shots as often as you can, to make sure the diet change isnt dropping him too low.

If you get a preshot test under 200, stall without feeding and ask for help. If you do not get a reply, you can either choose to skip the dose, or give a reduced dose (something like 0.25-0.5U).

I assure you, lots of cats here have had pancreatitis and kidney issues. The "high fat is bad for pancreas" for cats has been debunked in quite a few studies now. You certainly don't want to feed something high in fat, but moderate is ok.

As for the gallstones, those would be caused by too much cholesterol or calcium - the color of the stones should have indicated to the vet which the problem was. The biome is 19% fat - the Tiki Cat you mentioned is 13% (and actually most of the Tiki Cat foods are lower fat than the Biome anyway, and low carb).

I'm not sure what the kidney issue is, but that usually means low phosphorus. The Tiki Cat you mentioned is 1%, the biome is 0.65% so a little better in that regard. HOWEVER, kidney issues are exacerbated by the diabetes, so the diabetes should be treated first and foremost. If phosphorus becomes a problem in the labwork, you could always just use a phosphorus binder instead of trying to go crazy over foods.

 

[ANTONELLA]

Ok. In addition to what Chris said - that 1.5U was based on higher carb food. It can be dangerous now that the food has been switched.

The 1U today looked good, it leaves you wiggle room as the carbs come out of his system. It can take up to two weeks to see the full effects, but since it was wet food it will probably be sooner than that.

He's actually having more gentle results with Vetsulin than most cats, occasionally a cat does do well on it (mine was one of them). I wouldn't rush to Lantus just yet.

Just try to get midcycle tests about 4-5 hours after the shots as often as you can, to make sure the diet change isnt dropping him too low.

If you get a preshot test under 200, stall without feeding and ask for help. If you do not get a reply, you can either choose to skip the dose, or give a reduced dose (something like 0.25-0.5U).

I assure you, lots of cats here have had pancreatitis and kidney issues. The "high fat is bad for pancreas" for cats has been debunked in quite a few studies now. You certainly don't want to feed something high in fat, but moderate is ok.

As for the gallstones, those would be caused by too much cholesterol or calcium - the color of the stones should have indicated to the vet which the problem was. The biome is 19% fat - the Tiki Cat you mentioned is 13% (and actually most of the Tiki Cat foods are lower fat than the Biome anyway, and low carb).

I'm not sure what the kidney issue is, but that usually means low phosphorus. The Tiki Cat you mentioned is 1%, the biome is 0.65% so a little better in that regard. HOWEVER, kidney issues are exacerbated by the diabetes, so the diabetes should be treated first and foremost. If phosphorus becomes a problem in the labwork, you could always just use a phosphorus binder instead of trying to go crazy over foods.

Thank you very much for all this info … how would I reduce the calcium and cholesterol? Diet alone? I can ask tiki what those levels are but they don’t respond right away/ and that information isn’t on their website. Is there a supplement I could give her to help reduce those ? Her kidney issues are ckd but early stages … vet gave me aventi kidney complete to add to her food twice a day . She was never fed kibble she was always on wet food since 2017. Prior to that I unfortunately fed them kibble as I didn’t know better . The hills biome was canned 3 oz cans with the 32% carbs per can and she used to get 2 or more can per day. Thank you so much for explaining why we are lowering her dose with respect to her now having a low carb food and it taking time to change her levels etc. I appreciate all the advice and support

 

[ANTONELLA]

First of all, Young Again isn't anything magic. Many cats can't tolerate it because it can cause horrible gas and diarrhea. It's actually better for all cats to be eating low carb canned, no matter what the people at Young Again say. Kibble is kibble, even if they did find a way to make a low carb variety. Young Again comes very close to guaranteeing that if you feed only their food, your cat will go into remission and if you feed anything else, you're somehow limiting your cat's chances.

Now that I have that out of my system, one thing that would probably be very useful to you would be an auto-feeder like the Cat Mate 500. You can program it to open and offer several small snacks during the day while you're at work and at night when you're trying to sleep. Then you program it to open to an empty slot at least 2 hours before testing/feeding time so you know she hasn't eaten for those 2 hours. It comes with 2 ice packs to help keep canned food fresh too.

It's saved the sanity of a lot of sugarcat moms and dads!

Thank you Chris , I will look into that device

 

[ANTONELLA]

Ok. In addition to what Chris said - that 1.5U was based on higher carb food. It can be dangerous now that the food has been switched.

The 1U today looked good, it leaves you wiggle room as the carbs come out of his system. It can take up to two weeks to see the full effects, but since it was wet food it will probably be sooner than that.

He's actually having more gentle results with Vetsulin than most cats, occasionally a cat does do well on it (mine was one of them). I wouldn't rush to Lantus just yet.

Just try to get midcycle tests about 4-5 hours after the shots as often as you can, to make sure the diet change isnt dropping him too low.

If you get a preshot test under 200, stall without feeding and ask for help. If you do not get a reply, you can either choose to skip the dose, or give a reduced dose (something like 0.25-0.5U).

I assure you, lots of cats here have had pancreatitis and kidney issues. The "high fat is bad for pancreas" for cats has been debunked in quite a few studies now. You certainly don't want to feed something high in fat, but moderate is ok.

As for the gallstones, those would be caused by too much cholesterol or calcium - the color of the stones should have indicated to the vet which the problem was. The biome is 19% fat - the Tiki Cat you mentioned is 13% (and actually most of the Tiki Cat foods are lower fat than the Biome anyway, and low carb).

I'm not sure what the kidney issue is, but that usually means low phosphorus. The Tiki Cat you mentioned is 1%, the biome is 0.65% so a little better in that regard. HOWEVER, kidney issues are exacerbated by the diabetes, so the diabetes should be treated first and foremost. If phosphorus becomes a problem in the labwork, you could always just use a phosphorus binder instead of trying to go crazy over foods.

Hi again… overall how much insulin will I know to give ? Do I sick to 0.5 or 1? For example this morning her reading is 16.6 she hasn’t eaten in the night. So I will feed her soon the wait 30 min and inject the insulin but how much of it to know to give each time ? TIA

 

[FrostD]

You would probably have to ask the manufacturers about the calcium and cholesterol. If there is no medical cause for the calcium issues, then diet is first approach (meds would be next but there are risks with those, you'd have to talk to vet).

I don't know much about the Aventi Kidney. But it does already contain phosphorus binders - but it also contains calcium products. Typically you don't need phosphorus binders until phosphorus is above a certain level - and in her case with the stones you'd need a phos binder ideally without calcium.

As for dose - you will always give 1U if she's above 200 (11). If she's having trouble eating, you can do a reduced dose of that's more comfortable or you have to leave the house. If she ever goes below 90, your dose is permanently reduced by 0.25U (so down to 0.75U, then 0.5U, etc). If her nadirs stay too high we'll look to increase eventually, but need the diet change to sort itself out first.

 

[ANTONELLA]

You would probably have to ask the manufacturers about the calcium and cholesterol. If there is no medical cause for the calcium issues, then diet is first approach (meds would be next but there are risks with those, you'd have to talk to vet).

I don't know much about the Aventi Kidney. But it does already contain phosphorus binders - but it also contains calcium products. Typically you don't need phosphorus binders until phosphorus is above a certain level - and in her case with the stones you'd need a phos binder ideally without calcium.

As for dose - you will always give 1U if she's above 200 (11). If she's having trouble eating, you can do a reduced dose of that's more comfortable or you have to leave the house. If she ever goes below 90, your dose is permanently reduced by 0.25U (so down to 0.75U, then 0.5U, etc). If her nadirs stay too high we'll look to increase eventually, but need the diet change to sort itself out first.

Thank you… is there any binder you would recommend without the calcium? Her phosphorus has been creeping up each blood work so vet said she needs the aventi

 

[FrostD]

Aluminum hydroxide is what is used when calcium is high

Do you have recent bloodwork? To be honest I don't exactly trust.your vet. Phosphorus binders are typically not needed in the early stages of CKD (when phosphorus is under 6), the labwork would show phosphorus level. And without knowing what specifically caused the gallstones, I would not mess with minerals etc just yet. Calcium levels would be shown in bloodwork, and that would determine which binder to usem

 

[ANTONELLA]

Aluminum hydroxide is what is used when calcium is high

Do you have recent bloodwork? To be honest I don't exactly trust.your vet. Phosphorus binders are typically not needed in the early stages of CKD (when phosphorus is under 6), the labwork would show phosphorus level. And without knowing what specifically caused the gallstones, I would not mess with minerals etc just yet. Calcium levels would be shown in bloodwork, and that would determine which binder to usem

Thanks so much pls I want to attach her blood work from Friday night just past…. But this site tells me I don’t have access or permission when I hit the attach file button. Also I dropped off her urine sample this morning (free catch ) and they again told me the high protein tiki cat is very bad for her and her kidneys

 

[Chris & China (GA)]

I don't see any reason for a binder at all. Her phosphorus is normal. Her SDMA is high but her Creatinine is high/normal. Elevated BUN can be caused by dehydration or a high protein diet (among other things) but if it's just an elevated BUN, we don't worry much.
She could probably benefit from a lower phosphorus food just due to the SDMA but I wouldn't go crazy worrying about it. Weruva makes a large selection of foods that are both low carb/low phos and they put their nutritional information on their website. They have all kinds of textures and flavors too.

 

[Larry and Kitties]

Aluminum hydroxide is what is used when calcium is high

Can you provide a source for this?
Alendronate can be used to reduce blood ionized calcium in cats. I had a cat on this and it worked.
Alendronate treatment in cats with persistent ionized hypercalcemia: A ...

 

[FrostD]

Some reading about protein with links to scholarly publications:

https://felinecrf.org/nutritional_requirements.htm#protein

Basically, the benefit of a low protein diet has not been proven, and in many cases the cats in higher protein did better.

What I think your vet fails to realize is that with so many competing conditions, there is no straightforward answer.

If you lower protein, then carbs or fat have to increase - carbs not good for diabetes (which in turn puts more stress on kidneys), fat potentially not good for gallbladder.

If you lower carbs, it helps diabetes and therefore kidneys. But then fat and/or protein increases...again back to gallstones and *potentially* kidneys.

And so on and so forth.

Were the gall stones just one time? How were they treated?

Personally, I have always made decisions like this based on risk/reward (take a look at my signature, it's a lot of competing diagnoses). So my thoughts if he were my cat:
1. Do not obsess about phosphorus, just aim for something on the lower end. His levels are more than fine. I would also cut the supplement as it's not needed at the moment and has all the calcium. Next round of labwork will tell you if that was right decision.
2. Do not worry too much about fat. Try to keep it on the lower side. The low fat diet and tie to pancreatitis has been largely debunked in cats, the benefit here is potentially related to gallstones.
3. Do not worry too much about protein. As the link above shows there's no definitive answer as far as early stage CKD goes.
4. Prioritize low carb. The diabetes is the most pressing issue for a number of reasons.

 

[Chris & China (GA)]

Bloodwork from 6/26/22

 

[FrostD]

Can you provide a source for this?
Alendronate can be used to reduce blood ionized calcium in cats. I had a cat on this and it worked.
Alendronate treatment in cats with persistent ionized hypercalcemia: A ...

I meant a phos binder to use if calcium is an issue, that's what the forum seems to recommend (and Tanya's site, but there's a few other options). I don't see mention of alendronate as a phosphorus binder on Tanya's site, or through some quick Google searching?

I'm not even sure this cat's calcium is high, the vet was just trying to use various things as a push to keep the Hills Biome Food. My point was more that if calcium is a potential concern for the gallstones then the Aventi supplement makes no sense.