Raw Fed Feeders Could Use Some Input

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tiffmaxee

tiffmaxee

Member Since 2013
Hi All,
Mocha and Chai will be 6 years old in a month. They went for a vet visit a couple of days ago. Mocha’s skin allergies have been getting worse and I always worry about the frequency of urination but I have never had a raw fed cat before or even one on an all wet diet since being a kitten. At 2 she had baseline blood test and her creatinine was 2.1 This time it was 2.5! Yikes. Ckd? Her urine is well concentrated and my vet said the rest of her labs were good although they have yet to be sent to me. She’s been eating Primal venison and I recently switched to rabbit because she was getting dermatitis again. Could the bone be raising her creatinine? Do some healthy raw fed cats have high creatinine? I think he ran another test that was good too and not the SDMA. Her eosinophils were high too which is from the darn allergies.

Her sister, Chai, had a creatinine of 1.6 when the first tests were done but hers was 2.4 this time. She has a tooth that needs to be pulled so we just ran the labs but will get a urine when she has the tooth pulled.

It seems so odd to me for both of them to develop ckd at such a young age. I’m thinking of switching Chai to homemade food with EZ Complete and see if a retest will show it brings the creatinine. Any ideas as to what’s going on?

Thanks,

Elise
 
That’s really odd. My four cats have been raw fed for the past 10 years or so, off and on with canned, and vets are always raving about their great kidney function (especially now that they’re old). I doubt the food would cause this, and in two siblings I would, like Melissa, either suspect some other substance, or even possibly a genetic cause?
 
tiffmaxee said:
Thank you. I hope that’s the reason. It makes me feel a little better. I’ll get the labs next week. He forgot to send them.
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Being able to check all the parameters will be super helpful when you do get the labs. And it’ll be good to have this as such an early baseline, if it ends up just being their normal on a raw diet!
 
tiffmaxee said:
Hi All,
Mocha and Chai will be 6 years old in a month. They went for a vet visit a couple of days ago. Mocha’s skin allergies have been getting worse and I always worry about the frequency of urination but I have never had a raw fed cat before or even one on an all wet diet since being a kitten. At 2 she had baseline blood test and her creatinine was 2.1 This time it was 2.5! Yikes. Ckd? Her urine is well concentrated and my vet said the rest of her labs were good although they have yet to be sent to me. She’s been eating Primal venison and I recently switched to rabbit because she was getting dermatitis again. Could the bone be raising her creatinine? Do some healthy raw fed cats have high creatinine? I think he ran another test that was good too and not the SDMA. Her eosinophils were high too which is from the darn allergies.

Her sister, Chai, had a creatinine of 1.6 when the first tests were done but hers was 2.4 this time. She has a tooth that needs to be pulled so we just ran the labs but will get a urine when she has the tooth pulled.

It seems so odd to me for both of them to develop ckd at such a young age. I’m thinking of switching Chai to homemade food with EZ Complete and see if a retest will show it brings the creatinine. Any ideas as to what’s going on?

Thanks,

Elise
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Oh no Elise! I hope mocha and chai are ok. Sending tons of well wishes to you and the girls
 
Elise -

Do you add water to your cat's food? Obviously, raw food has a high moisture content. I would suggest adding more water at meal time. Cats do not have a high thirst drive. The additional water may help to offset an elevated kidney value. Also, the bone in raw food would have more of an effect on phosphorus than creatinine.
 
Virginie said:
Finally found some info - seems raw fed cats do tend to have higher creatinine levels because of the high protein contents:
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But the reference link that was posted in that article to a study on HP and LP diets showed that cats fed HP diets had lower creatinine, although higher BUN than cats fed LP diets, so I'm not sure that the website has used the information from the research link correctly. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1016/j.jfms.2011.05.019 A higher BUN level from diet matches what I've been told will happen, but raised creatinine isn't generally an issue related to diet. OTOH, there are other diseases that can cause raised creatinine, especially if the other kidney values are normal. Pancreatitis is the most common culprit. And don't forget that large, muscular cats have higher creatinine levels than smaller cats although they generally should still fall within the normal range.
 
I remember Sheba had a higher urea than normal and when I researched it, it said that feeding cats a raw diet can raise the urea levels a bit.
It didn’t mention creatinine I don’t think.
 
Thanks all. I am very worried. They act fine. The rest of Mocha’s labs were okay but I have not seen them. Her phosphorus was 3.0 and USG well concentrated. I do add a little water to their food and she stinks a small amount every few days. She has always peed more than any cat I have ever had. Her Primal rabbit is very high phosphorus so I might switch to lamb until I figure this out.
As for Chai he only ran a panel prior to next week when she needs a tooth pulled. He will run more then. I can’t believe this is happening before their 6th birthday. I hope she doesn’t have FORL. Mocha did vomit most of her food that morning so best case scenario would be she was a bit dehydrated. I think she was working on a hairball or more likely it was a scarf and barf as she wanted more food immediately after. Since we had the vet appointment she wasn’t fed more. I let her finish off the part still in her bowl and no issues. Both act fine. Great appetites, playful, and seem like happy healthy kitties.
 
manxcat419 said:
But the reference link that was posted in that article to a study on HP and LP diets showed that cats fed HP diets had lower creatinine, although higher BUN than cats fed LP diets, so I'm not sure that the website has used the information from the research link correctly. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1016/j.jfms.2011.05.019 A higher BUN level from diet matches what I've been told will happen, but raised creatinine isn't generally an issue related to diet. OTOH, there are other diseases that can cause raised creatinine, especially if the other kidney values are normal. Pancreatitis is the most common culprit. And don't forget that large, muscular cats have higher creatinine levels than smaller cats although they generally should still fall within the normal range.
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Thanks. It’s not pancreatitis and both are small cats, just 8 1/2 pounds. They are not on any medications as they have not seemed sick.
 
Have you thought about making your own raw and using egg shell powder instead of bone? Or maybe using a supplement that uses ESP and not bone?
I use ESP for Clover as she can’t eat bone as she lost most of her teeth as kitten.
 
tiffmaxee said:
Hi All,
Mocha and Chai will be 6 years old in a month. They went for a vet visit a couple of days ago. Mocha’s skin allergies have been getting worse and I always worry about the frequency of urination but I have never had a raw fed cat before or even one on an all wet diet since being a kitten. At 2 she had baseline blood test and her creatinine was 2.1 This time it was 2.5! Yikes. Ckd? Her urine is well concentrated and my vet said the rest of her labs were good although they have yet to be sent to me. She’s been eating Primal venison and I recently switched to rabbit because she was getting dermatitis again. Could the bone be raising her creatinine? Do some healthy raw fed cats have high creatinine? I think he ran another test that was good too and not the SDMA. Her eosinophils were high too which is from the darn allergies.

Her sister, Chai, had a creatinine of 1.6 when the first tests were done but hers was 2.4 this time. She has a tooth that needs to be pulled so we just ran the labs but will get a urine when she has the tooth pulled.

It seems so odd to me for both of them to develop ckd at such a young age. I’m thinking of switching Chai to homemade food with EZ Complete and see if a retest will show it brings the creatinine. Any ideas as to what’s going on?

Thanks,

Elise
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How large are the cats? How much do they weigh? ETA: I see they’re only 8.5 lbs.
 
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Bron and Sheba (GA) said:
Have you thought about making your own raw and using egg shell powder instead of bone? Or maybe using a supplement that uses ESP and not bone?
I use ESP for Clover as she can’t eat bone as she lost most of her teeth as kitten.
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Yes. I am planning to switch for Chai very soon. I would like a supplement with egg shell but it also can’t have chicken liver because Mocha can’t eat it. Small Bstch says their lamb has 95 phosphorus but all the offers are 1.33 -a high if 2.17 which is what Mocha is currently eating. It got rid of the EGC for now at least but she still has dermatitis. She was eating venison which is 1.22.
 
I hope that you can get the bloodwork results soon - and I realize that they were going to do more tests on Chai ahead of the dental. I know you are fully aware of all the possibilities that have been running through my head as I read this…. and many of them have already been mentioned here. I hope the diet changes will help. I would definitely try a dietary change to see if it makes a difference. With USG in the good range, it sounds like their kidneys are still functioning well. I’m sorry for the worry. I totally understand that. Keep us posted on those two sweeties.
 
Elise, how's it going with your kitties? I've been searching for a thread. I thought you were getting bloodwork back on them this week (Monday?)
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
Elise, how's it going with your kitties? I've been searching for a thread. I thought you were getting bloodwork back on them this week (Monday?)
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I got the labs yesterday. Chai had her dental today and he also did a urinalysis. It’s so weird. Just like Mocha, USG great and +2 protein. The X-rays are good and just the one tooth had to be pulled. Today he said we should run the SDMA for Mocha so I asked should we for Chai since she’s here now so he did. The interesting thing is Mocha had the same creatinine in 2020. If Chai’s is ok I might just pass on it. I don’t have a phosphorus for Chai but Mocha’s is 3.0. What do you make of this? Thanks for asking. @Suzanne & Darcy
 
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I have been thinking about this. It really seems like if the USG continues to be good then you should try not to worry but just monitor at regular intervals. It’s odd. Maybe these two cats, who are litter mates, have naturally higher creatine levels. It’s strange since they’re small cats though. I hope the SDMA levels will be okay, although I do not trust that test 100 percent. SDMA fluctuates in my cats and one in particular I was told would get kidney disease and that was about 7 years ago (so who knows.). Those two are very fortunate to have you caring for them.
 
Thanks Suzanne. I’ve been reading and it is possible fir raw fee to gave higher creatinine although higher BUN is more common. At first my vet said the SDMA might not tell us much . Yesterday he said run it. If elevated I think I will just test in 6 months rather than a year provided I don’t notice any changes. Another interesting thing is Mocha’s was the same 1 1/2 years ago . I am thinking about trying to make my own food using Alnutrin. I was going to get EZ Complete but since Mocha can’t have it it makes sense to try something else. Have you ever used Alnutrin?
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
Yes, I have read similar information about diet. I have a very extensively cited article that I will attach here. It’s got a lot of biochemical info about the SDMA test, but it does break down factors that influence the test. I’ve never used Alnutrin, sorry.
https://vetspace.2ndchance.info/the-sdma-test-what-abnormal-results-mean-and-what-they-dont-mean/
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Thank you for that link. Have you used Balance It? Both of my cats had creatinine of 1.6 or 1.7 when I got a baseline but I don’t think they were eating raw then. The BUN is normal and urine well concentrated. I think it’s weird. I’m now kind of sorry I ran the SDMB as it will likely just worry me more. It’s going to be hard to make my own food while I remodel which will start in December but I guess I can freeze a lot. If I had money I would make them wait to demo the kitchen until all was in place but doing it twice means more money and I already am in a bind.

Lisa Pierson’s site mentions why creatinine might be elevated from a raw diet.
 
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