Has anyone tried a human ketone meter?

[LoCarbCat]

I just bought a duel meter called Keto Mojo. It does BG and blood Keto. Would the keto reading be the same as a human? BTW, I don't mean what's level is safe. Of course, a human can tolerate a much higher keto level than a cat. My first reading said 1.6. The meter says 1.6 which is optimal for a human on a keto diet but very high for a cat IMO. The BG rest works great. You can even sync the data by Bluetooth with their app. But I don't trust the reading yet. The urine test strips show only a small amount of ketones. If it's accurate, this meter is very cool.

 

[Sugar’s Mama]

Hello! I've thankfully avoided ketones so far (knocking on wood) but I've seen lots of mentions of the blood meters. If you search 'Keto Mojo' you will see lots of posts from fellow users.

Do you have a spreadsheet set up to track your kitties BG numbers? I often see folks plug in the ketones numbers in the notes section to help track them.

 

[Hendrick Cuddleclaw]

Yes I used a human ketone meter on Hendrick after he was hospitalized for DKA.

1.6 is quite high and at risk for incoming DKA. Ideally, you want less than .6 on a human meter

Less than .6 = All ok

.6 to 1.5 = Watch out, possible incoming DKA episode

above 1.5 = call your vet immediately if any symptoms as well, such as no appetite, lethargy, etc. There was a cat on the forum recently with ketones that were 1.2, they were taken to the ER vet and did not make it unfortunately.

To keep DKA at bay, feed kitty about 150% of normal calories, make sure they have lots of water, and provide insulin therapy. Hendrick almost died because I didn't give him insulin soon enough.

 

[LoCarbCat]

Yes I used a human ketone meter on Hendrick after he was hospitalized for DKA.

1.6 is quite high and at risk for incoming DKA. Ideally, you want less than .6 on a human meter

Less than .6 = All ok

.6 to 1.5 = Watch out, possible incoming DKA episode

above 1.5 = call your vet immediately if any symptoms as well, such as no appetite, lethargy, etc. There was a cat on the forum recently with ketones that were 1.2, they were taken to the ER vet and did not make it unfortunately.

To keep DKA at bay, feed kitty about 150% of normal calories, make sure they have lots of water, and provide insulin therapy. Hendrick almost died because I didn't give him insulin soon enough.

Did he have any symptoms accompanying that 1.2? What was the BG? Age of the cat?

 

[FrostD]

Blood meters are more of a warning system. Each cat is a little different. My cat baselines at LO to 0.4. When he gets ill or other trouble, 0.8-1.0.

Like Kyle mentioned, once they start getting above 1.5 it's time to keep a close eye. Start pushing fluids (adding to food to make it soupy, etc), stay on top of their appetite, look for signs of infection/inflammation/stress, etc.

In addition to the meter reading, symptoms are also important. We've had cats run higher on the meter without symptoms, but DKA can also happen at lower ketone readings.

Any time BG is unregulated (above 120 on human meter, 150 on pet meter) you are at risk for ketones and DKA, doubly so without insulin. We have a few cats here that once BG is in the 300s, even for a few hours, ketones shoot up...yet that was not the case for my cat.

From what I've seen here, age doesn't really play a part in which cats do/dont get DKA, or which ones do/don't make it. It is very serious. Generally the healthier cats at a good weight, no other underlying conditions have a better chance.

Quality of care matters immensely. We've had cats discharged far too soon, only to go back for a 2nd and 3rd stay within days. Or discharged too soon and didn't make it through the night.

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

I just bought a duel meter called Keto Mojo. It does BG and blood Keto. Would the keto reading be the same as a human? BTW, I don't mean what's level is safe. Of course, a human can tolerate a much higher keto level than a cat. My first reading said 1.6. The meter says 1.6 which is optimal for a human on a keto diet but very high for a cat IMO. The BG rest works great. You can even sync the data by Bluetooth with their app. But I don't trust the reading yet. The urine test strips show only a small amount of ketones. If it's accurate, this meter is very cool.

Does you cat have a history of ketones? can you set up a signature so we can read about your kitty please.?
Are you home testing your kitty? Do you have a spreadsheet..?

 

[LoCarbCat]

Blood meters are more of a warning system. Each cat is a little different. My cat baselines at LO to 0.4. When he gets ill or other trouble, 0.8-1.0.

Like Kyle mentioned, once they start getting above 1.5 it's time to keep a close eye. Start pushing fluids (adding to food to make it soupy, etc), stay on top of their appetite, look for signs of infection/inflammation/stress, etc.

In addition to the meter reading, symptoms are also important. We've had cats run higher on the meter without symptoms, but DKA can also happen at lower ketone readings.

Any time BG is unregulated (above 120 on human meter, 150 on pet meter) you are at risk for ketones and DKA, doubly so without insulin. We have a few cats here that once BG is in the 300s, even for a few hours, ketones shoot up...yet that was not the case for my cat.

From what I've seen here, age doesn't really play a part in which cats do/don't get DKA, or which ones do/don't make it. It is very serious. Generally the healthier cats at a good weight, no other underlying conditions have a better chance.

Quality of care matters immensely. We've had cats discharged far too soon, only to go back for a 2nd and 3rd stay within days. Or discharged too soon and didn't make it through the night.

My research is showing me that high ketones would naturally accompany a reduced calorie, high protein, <2% carb diet in a cat with 320 BG. Yet the only examples of DKA were in cats with prolonged or ignored symptoms, and/or still on a high carb diet (sometimes without even knowing it due to bogus prescription diets). IMO, A cat in perfect health and acceptable weight, on a truly low-carb diet with 320 BG is not, out of the blue, going into DKA. I can't find a single study or incident in my hundreds of hours of research.

The paradigm of "tight regulation" pervades the landscape and it is going to sell a lot of insulin. I just can't buy into it. It all sounds scientific but it's backward. It's trying to treat the symptom and force it into submission, then claim credit for remission. It was designed to sell insulin and there are very few studies to back its claims. But I'm always open to reading actual studies. I'm finding the opinions formulated from the studies are not representative of the studies. IMO insulin should be used to get the patient in good health, withdraw it asap, and then watch to see if they respond to diet and exercise. It's about gently healing the pancreas, rather than slamming it with artificial insulin so the numbers fall into place.

 

[FrostD]

My research is showing me that high ketones would naturally accompany a reduced calorie, high protein, <2% carb diet in a cat with 320 BG. Yet the only examples of DKA were in cats with prolonged or ignored symptoms, and/or still on a high carb diet (sometimes without even knowing it due to bogus prescription diets). IMO, A cat in perfect health and acceptable weight, on a truly low-carb diet with 320 BG is not, out of the blue, going into DKA. I can't find a single study or incident in my hundreds of hours of research.

The paradigm of "tight regulation" pervades the landscape and it is going to sell a lot of insulin. I just can't buy into it. It all sounds scientific but it's backward. It's trying to treat the symptom and force it into submission, then claim credit for remission. It was designed to sell insulin and there are very few studies to back its claims. But I'm always open to reading actual studies. I'm finding the opinions formulated from the studies are not representative of the studies. IMO insulin should be used to get the patient in good health, withdraw it asap, and then watch to see if they respond to diet and exercise. It's about gently healing the pancreas, rather than slamming it with artificial insulin so the numbers fall into place.

I think what you've said here has been covered and nauseum in your previous posts, so I won't beat a dead horse. I think nearly all of us will have to agree to disagree with you. I know papers have been linked in the past so I won't go back and link those again.

Nobody is saying DKA comes out of the blue. You also need an infection/inflammation/systemic stress to trigger it. The problem is, those CAN come from out of the blue. Diabetic cats are more prone to UTIs for example, given the sugar in the urine. There are diabetic cats do have underlying conditions simmering that aren't caught in the standard bloodwork (EPI, SCL/IBD, pancreatitis flares,etc).

Anyway, my whole point in previous post was more about prevention and when to take action. There are numerous things you can do to help keep ketones and DKA at bay, and the ketone meter serves as a good warning system for that.

 

[LoCarbCat]

I think what you've said here has been covered and nauseum in your previous posts, so I won't beat a dead horse. I think nearly all of us will have to agree to disagree with you. I know papers have been linked in the past so I won't go back and link those again.

Nobody is saying DKA comes out of the blue. You also need an infection/inflammation/systemic stress to trigger it. The problem is, those CAN come from out of the blue. Diabetic cats are more prone to UTIs for example, given the sugar in the urine. There are diabetic cats do have underlying conditions simmering that aren't caught in the standard bloodwork (EPI, SCL/IBD, pancreatitis flares,etc).

Anyway, my whole point in previous post was more about prevention and when to take action. There are numerous things you can do to help keep ketones and DKA at bay, and the ketone meter serves as a good warning system for that.

I most certainly read the links you sent me. I also read the studies they were using to justify their position. Please, please read the studies, and lack thereof.

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

I entirely agree with @FrostD.
If your kitty has BG over the normal range and you are not giving insulin, you are risking your kitty getting ketones and possibly DKA; furthermore you are condemning your kitty to a horrible eventual death if you do not treat the diabetes with insulin.
If you are not prepared to treat your diabetic kitty with insulin, I think you should surrender him/her to a rescue so that he/she will get a chance at correct treatment.

Just as a FYI… DKA does not have to happen from prolonged or ignored symptoms. It can happen very quickly, and frequently does.

 

[Diane Tyler's Mom GA]

I'm not being mean at all been reading all LoCarCats posts if she doesn't want to take any advice from all of the experienced members here who know what they are talking about why does she come on here asking questions if she knows everything .
I just feel so so bad for her cat.she should give her cat up to someone who is willing to start treating the cat with insulin. Just terrible !
I guess you can lead a horse to water but can't make them drink
@FrostD

@Bron and Sheba (GA)
You both are Awesome!

 

[JL and Chip]

paradigm of "tight regulation" pervades the landscape and it is going to sell a lot of insulin. I just can't buy into it. It all sounds scientific but it's backward. It's trying to treat the symptom and force it into submission [emphasis mine]

Symptom = high blood glucose?

Yet the only examples of DKA were in cats with prolonged or ignored symptoms [emphasis mine]

So, potentially prolonged or ignored high blood glucose, for example??

 

[Hendrick Cuddleclaw]

The paradigm of "tight regulation" pervades the landscape and it is going to sell a lot of insulin.

Humans diabetics use far, FAR more insulin. The companies making insulin are not raking in profits from Tight Regulation, I doubt they even know it exists, like 99% of cat owners. It is a drop in the bucket for insulin companies as far as market share. It was not designed to sell insulin and if it was, it was a huge failure because it doesn't move much at all, and is engineered to gets cats OFF insulin.

I spent exactly $60 on insulin for my cat and got him into remission on TR - big pharma execs are not buying yachts because of TR. If anything, it causes less insulin to be purchased because it weans cats off of it.

My vet had never heard of it, for example. I truly hate big pharma pushing crap we don't need but this is not one of those cases.

Say what you want about TR but the evidence is clear: it works. 18 cats YTD 2022 have gone into remission on TR here at the FDMB. Other dosing methods have not produced a single diet-controlled feline yet this year.

 

[Mac88]

I entirely agree with @FrostD.
If your kitty has BG over the normal range and you are not giving insulin, you are risking your kitty getting ketones and possibly DKA; furthermore you are condemning your kitty to a horrible eventual death if you do not treat the diabetes with insulin.
If you are not prepared to treat your diabetic kitty with insulin, I think you should surrender him/her to a rescue so that he/she will get a chance at correct treatment.

Just as a FYI… DKA does not have to happen from prolonged or ignored symptoms. It can happen very quickly, and frequently does.

I can attest to the part about it happening very quickly. My newly diagnosed cat was his normal self with eating and drinking and generally being aloof right until the day he nearly died of DKA when he was just laying on the floor not moving much. If I hadn't got him right to the vet, the DKA would've killed him.

I can also attest to the part about remission. My other cat went into remission twice with aggressive insulin treatment, one remission lasted 2 years and the other 4 years. If I had just not treated him with insulin, I would've lost him several years ago but he's now a mostly healthy 14yo.

Diabetes is so serious both for cats and for humans. Yes, diet is important, but so is insulin while the cat's body is adjusting to the diet and hopefully starts producing its own insulin again. Please LoCarb, consider giving your cat what it needs right now and hopefully in the future, he/she will go into remission and live a long, happy life.

 

[LoCarbCat]

I can attest to the part about it happening very quickly. My newly diagnosed cat was his normal self with eating and drinking and generally being aloof right until the day he nearly died of DKA when he was just laying on the floor not moving much. If I hadn't got him right to the vet, the DKA would've killed him.

I can also attest to the part about remission. My other cat went into remission twice with aggressive insulin treatment, one remission lasted 2 years and the other 4 years. If I had just not treated him with insulin, I would've lost him several years ago but he's now a mostly healthy 14yo.

Diabetes is so serious both for cats and for humans. Yes, diet is important, but so is insulin while the cat's body is adjusting to the diet and hopefully starts producing its own insulin again. Please LoCarb, consider giving your cat what it needs right now and hopefully in the future, he/she will go into remission and live a long, happy life.

My cat has gone from 374 to 320 in two weeks. I'm not going to further accelerate that. I'm consulting with my vet on this and he's all in.

 

[LoCarbCat]

Humans diabetics use far, FAR more insulin. The companies making insulin are not raking in profits from Tight Regulation, I doubt they even know it exists, like 99% of cat owners. It is a drop in the bucket for insulin companies as far as market share. It was not designed to sell insulin and if it was, it was a huge failure because it doesn't move much at all, and is engineered to gets cats OFF insulin.

I spent exactly $60 on insulin for my cat and got him into remission on TR - big pharma execs are not buying yachts because of TR. If anything, it causes less insulin to be purchased because it weans cats off of it.

My vet had never heard of it, for example. I truly hate big pharma pushing crap we don't need but this is not one of those cases.

Say what you want about TR but the evidence is clear: it works. 18 cats YTD 2022 have gone into remission on TR here at the FDMB. Other dosing methods have not produced a single diet-controlled feline yet this year.

How do you know they wouldn't go into remission without the insulin. Mine is. Most get bullied into insulin. Some nut suggested I give the cat up! I see it happening here big time. They're on a ride to crazy town and I'm not boarding. I understand it's out of love but every case is different. It's not that companies are making money on tight regulation it's that the marketing techniques mirror the human techniques.

I have studied human medicine all my life, I'm an educated person. I know how to do medical research. I train doctors and lawyers how do research for a living. I believe what others are saying but they aren't in the same situation.

BTW. my question was about meter accuracy NOT the ketone numbers. That was the first reading and was done after a 10 hour fast.

 

[LoCarbCat]

Any time BG is unregulated (above 120 on human meter, 150 on pet meter) you are at risk for ketones and DKA,

If you can direct me to the data or articles that have brought you to that belief I would GREATLY appreciate it. I teach people how to research for a living and I can't find anything that would support that other than people's opinions and horror stories with extenuating circumstances.

My cat has done nothing but improve, is under a vet's care (and 5 online vets on Justanswer), and I'm still getting insulin pushed on me as if insulin is safe. It's a "high-alert" medication with a Black Box Warning! It isn't to be taken lightly. Some jerk even suggested I give up the cat!

All I asked was if the meters are accurate for ketones.

 

[LoCarbCat]

Symptom = high blood glucose?


So, potentially prolonged or ignored high blood glucose, for example??

BG is not a physical symptom.

 

[Teetee (UK)]

Some jerk even suggested I give up the cat!
All I asked was if the meters are accurate for ketones.

I think you are out of order calling members a jerk and you should apologise, there's no need whatsoever.
If you don't agree with a post then say so but not by calling them jerks.
The members on here that help others do so voluntary, spending many many hours doing so and don't need to be insulted.
They are concerned for the welfare of your cat.

 

[Suzanne & Darcy]

Blood meters are more of a warning system. Each cat is a little different. My cat baselines at LO to 0.4. When he gets ill or other trouble, 0.8-1.0.

Like Kyle mentioned, once they start getting above 1.5 it's time to keep a close eye. Start pushing fluids (adding to food to make it soupy, etc), stay on top of their appetite, look for signs of infection/inflammation/stress, etc.

In addition to the meter reading, symptoms are also important. We've had cats run higher on the meter without symptoms, but DKA can also happen at lower ketone readings.

Any time BG is unregulated (above 120 on human meter, 150 on pet meter) you are at risk for ketones and DKA, doubly so without insulin. We have a few cats here that once BG is in the 300s, even for a few hours, ketones shoot up...yet that was not the case for my cat.

From what I've seen here, age doesn't really play a part in which cats do/dont get DKA, or which ones do/don't make it. It is very serious. Generally the healthier cats at a good weight, no other underlying conditions have a better chance.

Quality of care matters immensely. We've had cats discharged far too soon, only to go back for a 2nd and 3rd stay within days. Or discharged too soon and didn't make it through the night.

My cat has gone from 374 to 320 in two weeks. I'm not going to further accelerate that. I'm consulting with my vet on this and he's all in.

Those high glucose numbers are nowhere near remission. And this is with a low carb diet you say? Wow what high numbers for a low carb diet. Those numbers are way above the kidney threshold and are damaging your poor cat’s body in many different ways. I feel so sorry for your cat for having a real disease that is not being treated. Any vet who advises to not treat this diabetes with insulin at those high numbers should have their license revoked. It is neither competent nor kind nor concerned for the well-being or even the life of your dear cat.

 

[Suzanne & Darcy]

Yet the only examples of DKA were in cats with prolonged or ignored symptoms, and/or still on a high carb diet (sometimes without even knowing it due to bogus prescription diets).

There are plenty of examples of cats right here who were on truly low carb diets and who were already on insulin (so symptoms not being ignored) who went into DKA. All it takes is for an infection to develop suddenly (could be something as common as a urinary tract infection) and they go into DKA very quickly. If this is all you found in your studies, then the people who published this were obviously very selective in their case selection in order to prove their point (for whatever reason.)

 

[Suzanne & Darcy]

Please, please read the studies, and lack thereof

Have I missed them? Where are these studies you refer to? Were they in a previous thread? I would like to see them.

 

[FrostD]

If you can direct me to the data or articles that have brought you to that belief I would GREATLY appreciate it. I teach people how to research for a living and I can't find anything that would support that other than people's opinions and horror stories with extenuating circumstances.

My cat has done nothing but improve, is under a vet's care (and 5 online vets on Justanswer), and I'm still getting insulin pushed on me as if insulin is safe. It's a "high-alert" medication with a Black Box Warning! It isn't to be taken lightly. Some jerk even suggested I give up the cat!

All I asked was if the meters are accurate for ketones.

With respect to ketone meters and DKA, there are two studies specifically on cats linked in here - https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB...oacidosis-dka-and-blood-ketone-meters.135952/

As far as accuracy, all I can give you is anecdotal. And yes, they read similarly to blood drawn in a lab, keeping the various unit conversions in mind.

Many of us here also have advanced degrees, know how to research, and teach others how to research as well. I fear you and/or your vet are cherry picking the research that fits your views, OR you have been scared off by rare horror stories - which are the result of irresponsible/uninformed vets and/or caregivers. For example, read the ProZinc insert (this is a straight link to download the PDF) - https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...MQFnoECCgQAQ&usg=AOvVaw116JeNy0zyLA7FoMhJxbcU

Read the sections on the field studies. Our primary complaint on this forum is that people don't test enough to keep the cats safe, and vets are making poor decisions on when/how much to increase doses. THAT is how cats die. Insulin is very safe as long as you are taking the proper precautions - the same as any other medication. And here on this forum, it is ALWAYS safety first. Scan some threads, and I guarantee at least a handful of threads a day we are advising that a caregiver is not testing enough, increasing too much, missing decreases, etc.

Again, not looking to argue, we are just concerned for your cat. He may not have symptoms now, but FD takes an internal toll on a lot of things. Not do I consider the change in BG to be a significant improvement that warrants forgoing insulin.

May I ask if you've written off insulin completely? Or is there some criteria/threshold at which you would start it?

 

[Wendy&Neko]

I'm glad to hear you are monitoring ketones in your cat. Our guidelines here is that anything above trace is a cause for concern and you should be on alert and notify the vet. We have also seen cats here with ketones go from small to high and DKA in less than a day. In my time here, I have seen a cat whose ketones would register high with blood sugar over 300. That caregiver definitely benefited from using a blood ketone meter.

As for starting or not starting insulin, at FDMB we are strong believers in using insulin. Some people will do a food trial for a couple of weeks first, but if that does not bring the cat into normal blood sugar range, it's time to start insulin. Since you like to read articles, here are a couple for you written and peer reviewed by vets:
(2018) Managing Feline Diabetes: Current Perspectives and (2018) AAHA Diabetes Management Guidelines for Dogs and Cats

You will note that both articles describe insulin plus dietary management as the mainstay of treatment. A interesting quote to me is the following:

In newly diabetic cats, early effective glycemic control can resolve glucotoxicity before there is permanent loss of sufficient β cells to maintain euglycemia, which increases the probability of remission.

What you decide to do based on discussions with your vet is ultimately your choice, but our experience here with thousands of cats, is that treating a diabetic cat means insulin. Our real life data isn't getting published in articles, but we've also had vets and vet techs as members here.

And lastly, we might all benefit from rereading this Sticky Note: FDMB Guide to Posting and Etiquette Some of the members posting on this thread have personally helped hundreds of caregivers of newly diabetic cats. We all remember what it was like to be new with a cat just diagnosed with diabetes. There is a lot to learn but we all just want to help.

 

[Ben and Oreo]

Might as well clear the air and admit that I'm one (one of several) of the "jerks" that suggested you might give her up if you were going to reject insulin (once again not that I actually want that). These high ketones and continued high BG's after 2 months are why I said that... I'm sorry I wasn't convincing enough, you were warned about DKA countless times... I hold no malice for you because I do choose to believe that you believe your helping your cat, but in my heart I know you're mistaken and it saddens me deeply.