New here, could do with some advice!

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Emma and Solomon

Emma and Solomon

Member Since 2022
Hello everyone!

I have been lurking here reading through MANY threads since my precious boy was diagnosed in March and I have learned so much more from here than I had from the vet so thank you to all you lovely people that spend your time helping newbies like myself!

I took Solomon to the vet after a week of increased drinking/urination and he was diagnosed with Diabetes. I had pretty much googled my way into believing he had Diabetes+ Failing kidneys+Hyperthyroid all at the same time while waiting on the appointment lol so was relieved it was only the one. Solomon is a very chunky boy and was almost 11kg(23+lbs) when I adopted him 2 years ago and with great difficulty I've managed to get him down to 9.5kg, his vet said I caught his Diabetes early enough that he hadn't started to lose weight yet. The only other issue he had at diagnosis was a UTI which was sent for a culture and treated with 10 days of antibiotics and has since resolved.

He was started on 2U of Caninsulin and I got a glucometer after reading on here (I actually panic bought x2 human glucometers and an Alphatrak ha) and started monitoring him. On Caninsulin he slept immediately after his shot and was lethargic for about 4 hours after it and spent the 4 hours before his next shot practically chained to his water bowl, it was awful to watch. I asked the vet multiple times about changing his insulin but I was told that Caninsulin was all they used there and they had patients doing well on it. After persistent requests they finally caved and prescribed Prozinc however the vet openly told me she had no experience with it and would base his dose on his weight so she suggested 4.5U which I decided against and started him on the same dose as his Caninsulin and have been working my way up. His behaviour since starting Prozinc has been night and day! He has been almost back to his usual self which has been amazing but his numbers haven't been great. The last few days he has seemed a bit more slugglish than usual (it has been very hot here so could be the heat) but still eating/ drinking fine.

Since my vet has said she doesn't know about dosing Prozinc I'm hoping some lovely person here can look at his spreadsheet and tell me what to do? :joyful:
Also I think his numbers looked better on Caninsulin so hoping I didn't make a mistake in changing his to Prozinc?

He is on mainly wet food that is 2-3% carbs (he is very fussy so I have to change it all the time) and he gets a small amount of 8.9% dry food per day and I am pretty much feeding him on demand since he is unregulated not sure if I should be? I test his urine for ketones 3x per week and he has always been negative and I have other multi test urine strips I use once a week to check his urine specific gravity to get an idea of his hydration and to check theres no protein in his urine from a UTI.

Any and all advice is appreciated!

Thanks,
Emma
 
Emma and Solomon said:
Hello everyone!

I have been lurking here reading through MANY threads since my precious boy was diagnosed in March and I have learned so much more from here than I had from the vet so thank you to all you lovely people that spend your time helping newbies like myself!

I took Solomon to the vet after a week of increased drinking/urination and he was diagnosed with Diabetes. I had pretty much googled my way into believing he had Diabetes+ Failing kidneys+Hyperthyroid all at the same time while waiting on the appointment lol so was relieved it was only the one. Solomon is a very chunky boy and was almost 11kg(23+lbs) when I adopted him 2 years ago and with great difficulty I've managed to get him down to 9.5kg, his vet said I caught his Diabetes early enough that he hadn't started to lose weight yet. The only other issue he had at diagnosis was a UTI which was sent for a culture and treated with 10 days of antibiotics and has since resolved.

He was started on 2U of Caninsulin and I got a glucometer after reading on here (I actually panic bought x2 human glucometers and an Alphatrak ha) and started monitoring him. On Caninsulin he slept immediately after his shot and was lethargic for about 4 hours after it and spent the 4 hours before his next shot practically chained to his water bowl, it was awful to watch. I asked the vet multiple times about changing his insulin but I was told that Caninsulin was all they used there and they had patients doing well on it. After persistent requests they finally caved and prescribed Prozinc however the vet openly told me she had no experience with it and would base his dose on his weight so she suggested 4.5U which I decided against and started him on the same dose as his Caninsulin and have been working my way up. His behaviour since starting Prozinc has been night and day! He has been almost back to his usual self which has been amazing but his numbers haven't been great. The last few days he has seemed a bit more slugglish than usual (it has been very hot here so could be the heat) but still eating/ drinking fine.

Since my vet has said she doesn't know about dosing Prozinc I'm hoping some lovely person here can look at his spreadsheet and tell me what to do? :joyful:
Also I think his numbers looked better on Caninsulin so hoping I didn't make a mistake in changing his to Prozinc?

He is on mainly wet food that is 2-3% carbs (he is very fussy so I have to change it all the time) and he gets a small amount of 8.9% dry food per day and I am pretty much feeding him on demand since he is unregulated not sure if I should be? I test his urine for ketones 3x per week and he has always been negative and I have other multi test urine strips I use once a week to check his urine specific gravity to get an idea of his hydration and to check theres no protein in his urine from a UTI.

Any and all advice is appreciated!

Thanks,
Emma
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Welcome Emma , have to tell you Solomon is adorable
I will tag a prozinc user for you to look at your spreadsheet
I don't think you made a bad choice switching to Prozinc
There are 2 dosing methods for Prozinc to choose from .
I'll give you the link to take a look at
https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/prozinc-dosing-methods.225629/
@FrostD
Melissa may not be on tonight, I'm sure she will be on tomorrow to look at your spreadsheet

https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB...-vit-b12-and-other-need-to-know-stuff.137376/

I can also try tagging
@Teetee (UK)

@Elizabeth and Bertie
 
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Hi and welcome Emma and Solomon to the forum.:)
Prozinc is a much better insulin for cats than caninsulin. So good choice there.
Do you think you could put a coloured line through the spreadsheet where you started the prozinc so we can see it easily please?
Great job getting the spreadsheet and signature up and running…thank you. That helps us a lot.
And testing for ketones 3 times a week is excellent.
And multiple snacks or free feeding during the day is good.
Are you withholding the food for the 2 hours preshot so the BG is not food influenced?
I am not a pro one user but I’m sure Melissa (frostD) will be along later. She lives in the US so will be asleep at the moment.
Or one of the other prozonc users may be along.
Bron
 
Hi Emma, just wanted to say you're off to a great start. Less drama and tears, more doing what has to be done. Also nice job on some basic research that too many people skip and especially getting off of Caninsulin. That was a lesson I never learned until I got here.
Solomon will be tossing the caber before you know it. :smuggrin:
 
I agree with @Bron and Sheba (GA) and @Noah & me (GA), Prozinc is the better choice.
Emma and Solomon said:
I think his numbers looked better on Caninsulin
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I disagree with you here. He looks steadier on Prozinc. The PS numbers are slowly coming down (more yellows) and I'd bet you'd see a few more blues mid cycle with a bit more testing - anytime you can grab even a single mid cycle test can really help tell us what's going on.

@Diane Tyler's Mom linked the Prozinc Dosing Guidelines above so I don't need to send you there again. Just a couple things for now, same as Bron asked, are you withholding food 2 hours before your preshot tests? And you'll have to follow Prozinc SLGS (Start Low Go Slow) dosing with dry in the mix, even if it's low carb.

You really are off to a good start and you really are doing great! :)
 
Diane Tyler's Mom said:
Welcome Emma , have to tell you Solomon is adorable
I will tag a prozinc user for you to look at your spreadsheet
I don't think you made a bad choice switching to Prozinc
There are 2 dosing methods for Prozinc to choose from .
I'll give you the link to take a look at
https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/prozinc-dosing-methods.225629/
@FrostD
Melissa may not be on tonight, I'm sure she will be on tomorrow to look at your spreadsheet

https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB...-vit-b12-and-other-need-to-know-stuff.137376/

I can also try tagging
@Teetee (UK)

@Elizabeth and Bertie
Click to expand...

Thank you! I have been sort of following one of the methods but would be good to know whether I am going about it the right way. Also thanks for the reassurance re changing to Prozinc, I know myself just by his behaviour that it's better but I just panic a little since I forced the change against the vets advice lol.
 
Bron and Sheba (GA) said:
Hi and welcome Emma and Solomon to the forum.:)
Prozinc is a much better insulin for cats than caninsulin. So good choice there.
Do you think you could put a coloured line through the spreadsheet where you started the prozinc so we can see it easily please?
Great job getting the spreadsheet and signature up and running…thank you. That helps us a lot.
And testing for ketones 3 times a week is excellent.
And multiple snacks or free feeding during the day is good.
Are you withholding the food for the 2 hours preshot so the BG is not food influenced?
I am not a pro one user but I’m sure Melissa (frostD) will be along later. She lives in the US so will be asleep at the moment.
Or one of the other prozonc users may be along.
Bron
Click to expand...
Thank you! Yeah I know myself it's better but since I basically forced the change on my vet I sometimes have a little panic that his high numbers are my fault so the reassurance is helpful lol!

Ah I use the world tab and put the line through that for starting Prozinc didn't even think to do it on the US one but that's it fixed.

His preshots are mostly withholding food but it really depends on my shift patterns, if I do 9 hour shifts with almost an hour travel at either side so sometimes his food is only lifted an hour preshot and sometimes Solomons Dad "forgets" he hasn't to be fed 2 hours before his insulin and feeds him before I get home :banghead:
I tried him with a timed feeder when I first started working on his weight but he was absolutely terrified of it and wouldn't go near it! I'm gonna have a look for less scary ones and hopefully convince him they are not pure evil then I can control when he's fed and attempt to ditch dry also.

Thank you for your help!
 
Noah & me (GA) said:
Hi Emma, just wanted to say you're off to a great start. Less drama and tears, more doing what has to be done. Also nice job on some basic research that too many people skip and especially getting off of Caninsulin. That was a lesson I never learned until I got here.
Solomon will be tossing the caber before you know it. :smuggrin:
Click to expand...
Thank you so much!

Oh we did have tears at first lol, I was a nervous wreck getting about 2 hours sleep a night so I could watch him all night and obsessively read through info on here but thanks to all I learned I am much more relaxed about everything (sometimes ha).

It was a struggle to get the vet to agree but finally after I told her I couldn't handle watching him either totally out cold because the insulin was dropping him too quickly or chained to his water bowl any more she agreed. He is the first patient at that practice on anything other than Caninsulin now!
 
Bad advice and poor judgment by veterinarians seems to be a global thing. Thankfully compassion and common sense are as well.
I only know what a caber is because I married into a Scottish Irish family, I promise not to make any jokes about Haggis.
We have something else from Scotland as well
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I will defer to the more experienced Prozinc users but to my eye, I suspect Solomon needs more insulin. However, since you're working, it's especially important to get tests in the evening since you're not there during the day. We highly recommend getting a "before bed" test every night. Many cats experience lower numbers during the PM cycle so getting at least one test so you are assured that numbers aren't dropping is important. If you're not sure how low numbers are going, I wouldn't advise a dose increase.

Also, can you double check your spreadsheet? The AM+5 is 11.1 on the World side and 200 on the US tab. If the 11.1 is correct, the cell should be yellow, not blue. I'm tagging @Bandit's Mom since she's one of our spreadsheet gurus.
 
Sienne and Gabby (GA) said:
I will defer to the more experienced Prozinc users but to my eye, I suspect Solomon needs more insulin. However, since you're working, it's especially important to get tests in the evening since you're not there during the day. We highly recommend getting a "before bed" test every night. Many cats experience lower numbers during the PM cycle so getting at least one test so you are assured that numbers aren't dropping is important. If you're not sure how low numbers are going, I wouldn't advise a dose increase.

Also, can you double check your spreadsheet? The AM+5 is 11.1 on the World side and 200 on the US tab. If the 11.1 is correct, the cell should be yellow, not blue. I'm tagging @Bandit's Mom since she's one of our spreadsheet gurus.
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Thank you! I know I have a lot more data for Caninsulin since I used annual leave days to reduce my days in work when he was first diagnosed. I'm off work for 3 weeks so will be able to test a lot more!

I think I may have just found the reason for his high numbers yesterday/ day before.. Just heard him rustling something in his hidey hole cave and found an empty ripped open pack of Dreamies :eek: Have no idea how he managed to get them as I binned all but 1 pack that was about 1/4 full and kept it in his food cupboard with his hypo food. I really hope they have somehow been knocked out and he hasn't mastered opening cupboards.

Hmm yeah he was 11.1 +5 when I tested him a couple hours ago and it just changed blue after I entered the number as usual.

Thank you for your advice!
 
That's it for me Emma. I was never a Prozinc user so I have nothing more to offer. You're in a good place now; no more tears, no more sleepless nights.
You did everything right, wishing you and Solomon the life you both deserve. :bighug:
 
I am sorry i have no idea why I didn't get these tags!

Everyone else has given you solid advice for everything else. Glad.you decided to research on your own or you might very well have had a dead cat!

As far as dose - his nadir was pretty good on the 3.5U. Right now you want nadir around 90-120, for him that seems to be around +4/+5 (but I can and does change from cycle to cycle). 3.75U should be ok because you still had room to increase...but if he got into higher carb dry food, you'll want to hold the dose a little longer this time. That can take a week or two to work it's way out of his system.

On the flipside, waiting too long to increase leads to glucose toxicity, so you have to try to balance the two. I would give this dose 2 more days to see what he does, then increase up to 4U.

You maybe saw more "better numbers" on Caninsulin but that is not the whole picture. I'm sure he felt like garbage because of those big swings, and cats rarely ever get regulated on it because it is almost always too harsh and not enough duration. I'd say in my few years here I've seen maybe 3-5 cats (out of 20+) end up regulated on it. So ProZinc is the better choice.
 
FrostD said:
I am sorry i have no idea why I didn't get these tags!

Everyone else has given you solid advice for everything else. Glad.you decided to research on your own or you might very well have had a dead cat!

As far as dose - his nadir was pretty good on the 3.5U. Right now you want nadir around 90-120, for him that seems to be around +4/+5 (but I can and does change from cycle to cycle). 3.75U should be ok because you still had room to increase...but if he got into higher carb dry food, you'll want to hold the dose a little longer this time. That can take a week or two to work it's way out of his system.

On the flipside, waiting too long to increase leads to glucose toxicity, so you have to try to balance the two. I would give this dose 2 more days to see what he does, then increase up to 4U.

You maybe saw more "better numbers" on Caninsulin but that is not the whole picture. I'm sure he felt like garbage because of those big swings, and cats rarely ever get regulated on it because it is almost always too harsh and not enough duration. I'd say in my few years here I've seen maybe 3-5 cats (out of 20+) end up regulated on it. So ProZinc is the better choice.
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Thank you so much for your advice!

I think the treats he got are starting to wear off as his +8 was 160 today, I have never actually checked how high carbs they are as he used to get them all the time and I don't need to be blaming myself for his diabetes any more lol! if your in the US they are temptation treats but in the UK they are called Dreamies. I did test him at +5 to see how he was doing but it was with the Alphatrak since I ran out of freestyle strips.

I have noticed his nadir seems to change daily! When do you think is best to grab tests outside of usual curves? I'm off work for about 2 weeks and would like to get as much useful data as possible. I was thinking getting at least a few hourly from +4 to +7 to try and figure out his most consistent nadir but if you have any other suggestions I'm happy to do that instead!

Thanks for the reassurance with changing insulin. I do actually know that he is much better than he was on Caninsulin, it was harsh and the big swings either knocked him out for hours or kept him lying at his waterbowl for hours and I am much happier with how he has been on Prozinc he is almost back to his pre diabetic self. I was just feeling a little defeated after that awful curve full of pinks and felt like it was my fault and I was doing everything wrong! Feeling better about things now :)

Thank you again for taking the time to have a look and share some wisdom!
 
Diane Tyler's Mom said:
I will tag a prozinc user for you to look at your spreadsheet
I don't think you made a bad choice switching to Prozinc
There are 2 dosing methods for Prozinc to choose from .
I'll give you the link to take a look at
https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/prozinc-dosing-methods.225629/
@FrostD
Click to expand...

Thank you for your help.

I have had a look at them and was leaning more towards the modified prozinc method but someone said above that I would have to use SLGS as he is still on low carb dry food so I will do that while I working on getting him off the dry!
 
What was the +5 on the AT?

Typically on normal ProZinc cycles it should be about +4 to +6 (some cats do go as late as +8 or +10 but that's more rare), he seems to fall right into that.

When they bounce, the bounce-breaking cycle very often has a later nadir, +8-ish or later. I'm not really seeing any prolonged bouncing from him, I think you're seeing more a duration/dose/contraband issue.

Nadir is always best. Second to that, we look for onset. With ProZinc that's usually +2/3-ish, he seems to be sometime after +2 but definitely by +3 most cycles. That information helps to know in lower numbers where close monitoring may be needed - but of course when they get regulated patterns often change :rolleyes:

Spot checks around +9/10 here and there are good as well just to peek at duration but definitely don't need to be a frequent thing. The only time if strongly recommend them is if a cat has a tendency to drop late in a cycle (i.e. bounce break or late nadir) but doesn't seem to be the case for him right now
 
+5 AT was 10.6mmol so 191

He seems to rise at +2 from what I've seen so far which I found very confusing initially since on Caninsulin he had usually dropped by about 140-180 by +2.

Okdoke thank you for all the info, it helps a lot! Will stick with the 3.75 for the next couple of days and get tests over +4 to +6.
 
Emma and Solomon said:
Thank you for your help.

I have had a look at them and was leaning more towards the modified prozinc method but someone said above that I would have to use SLGS as he is still on low carb dry food so I will do that while I working on getting him off the dry!
Click to expand...
You're welcome , yes if that cutie pie is on any dry food you will have to follow SLGS :cat:
That face of his is so adorable
Here is a link for UK members that might be helpful, they list some low carb treats too
https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB...-vit-b12-and-other-need-to-know-stuff.137376/
The Dreamies are most likely very high in carbs just like the Temtations
 
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Emma and Solomon said:
+5 AT was 10.6mmol so 191

He seems to rise at +2 from what I've seen so far which I found very confusing initially since on Caninsulin he had usually dropped by about 140-180 by +2.

Okdoke thank you for all the info, it helps a lot! Will stick with the 3.75 for the next couple of days and get tests over +4 to +6.
Click to expand...
Ok thanks. The AT tends to run a bit higher so I'd say nadir was probably about +6 ish today as well.

Yes, ProZinc takes a little longer to kick in for most cats. So what you're seeing is the food bump from his meal, plus the prior shot worn off and the new one not kicking in yet. Caninsulin yes is usually a quicker onset, +1 or +2
 
Diane Tyler's Mom said:
You're welcome , yes if that cutie pie is on any dry food you will have to follow SLGS :cat:
That face of his is so adorable
Here is a link for UK members that might be helpful, they list some low carb treats too
https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB...-vit-b12-and-other-need-to-know-stuff.137376/
The Dreamies are most likely very high in carbs just like the Temtations
Click to expand...

Thank you, I have been lurking here since he was diagnosed and have the UK food chart saved to my home screen it has been a lifesaver! Probably tried about 50% of the food on the list so far, Solomon is very fussy for a fat cat. Treats have been an issue, he tries to bury any freeze dried treats in absolute disgust but I have found semi moist ones from the list that are less than 5% that he likes. He doesn't get Dreamies/ Temptations at all since he was diagnosed, I just kept a small amount with my hypo kit and he somehow got a hold of them and ripped the pack to shreds- he absolutely loves them! His previous owner had a neighbour that would literally give him FULL BOWLS of them to lure him in to their house which is how he got so chunky :arghh:

With the dry food, would that still be the case if it was Ziwi Peak air dried food that is technically air dried meat and not standard kibble?

I am very biased but I think he is the cutest boy!

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He is very handsome boy. Ziwi air dried is ok and freeze dried as well. I follow TR and occasionally do the Ziwi air dried to give Henry something to chew on. He is former dry food addict. Have you tried the tuna flakes or the fortiflora ? Henry loves both.
 
Thank you! That is good to know about the Ziwi food as he seemed to like the samples they sent so will order some, have some cold pressed food en route so maybe that will go well too!

It's very annoying as pre diabetes I got him down to very little dry food (I would end up binning it after a couple of days because he would never finish the bowl even in a few days) but since he no longer gets his favourite gravy wet food he has been finishing the dry again. Thankfully it's 9% carb food and not the prescription Royal Canin Diabetes I was giving per the vets advice before I knew better!

I've tried both, fortiflora worked wonders at first and actually got him finishing meals for the first time ever! Now in typical fashion he doesn't like it anymore :banghead: He didn't like the flakes or the crushed freeze dried topping I tried either. We have a rotation of low carb wet going which seems to be working for now and we are about 80% wet and 20% dry so will keep working on it!
 
Emma and Solomon said:
Thank you! That is good to know about the Ziwi food as he seemed to like the samples they sent so will order some, have some cold pressed food en route so maybe that will go well too!

It's very annoying as pre diabetes I got him down to very little dry food (I would end up binning it after a couple of days because he would never finish the bowl even in a few days) but since he no longer gets his favourite gravy wet food he has been finishing the dry again. Thankfully it's 9% carb food and not the prescription Royal Canin Diabetes I was giving per the vets advice before I knew better!

I've tried both, fortiflora worked wonders at first and actually got him finishing meals for the first time ever! Now in typical fashion he doesn't like it anymore :banghead: He didn't like the flakes or the crushed freeze dried topping I tried either. We have a rotation of low carb wet going which seems to be working for now and we are about 80% wet and 20% dry so will keep working on it!
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Don't give up on the freeze dried yet. there are so many brands now on the market, maybe he will like one. 9% is still pretty high, we try to be 6% or less unless it's an active cycle. it is hard to find low carb food they love that is for sure. i have bought an entire store and yet to find something he will actually love lol if he loves it one day tomorrow he is like : this again? it's definitely a challenge and they surely like to keep us on our toes.
 
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