5/23/22 - Kaz - BG51 -

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Claire and Kaz

Claire and Kaz

Member Since 2022
@Bron and Sheba (GA)
@Suzanne & Darcy
@tiffmaxee
@Bandit's Mom


Just got home and Kaz has not eaten any of the meals I left out for him. He's alert but definitely not himself His BG is 51.

I have rubbed honey on his gums and will recheck blood in 1/2 hour.
His Ketones are fine at 0.1 on blood monitor.

He doesn't really want to eat but I am managing a tiny amount as long as I mix a bit of dry in with it.

I'm tagging as I think I may have trouble with this evenings shot which is due in 2 hours and I know Bron won't be around at that time.
I'm using high carb food to increase his BG but I don't think this will now be a true indicator of his BG.

I don't want to inject due to a short lived food spike. (His numbers may stay low)
 
Claire and Kaz said:
@Bron and Sheba (GA)
@Suzanne & Darcy
@tiffmaxee
@Bandit's Mom


Just got home and Kaz has not eaten any of the meals I left out for him. He's alert but definitely not himself His BG is 51.

I have rubbed honey on his gums and will recheck blood in 1/2 hour.
His Ketones are fine at 0.1 on blood monitor.

He doesn't really want to eat but I am managing a tiny amount as long as I mix a bit of dry in with it.

I'm tagging as I think I may have trouble with this evenings shot which is due in 2 hours and I know Bron won't be around at that time.
I'm using high carb food to increase his BG but I don't think this will now be a true indicator of his BG.

I don't want to inject due to a short lived food spike. (His numbers may stay low)
Click to expand...
Where is he now? And how much time until his shot?
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
Where is he now? And how much time until his shot?
Click to expand...

He's at 125 now but I have been feeding him 20% carb food. He was a bit wobbly when I got home but at least he was standing. He initially refused all food so I gave honey.
Still refused food so I tried mixing a bit of dry which he loves but is not allowed in with the wet and he ate it.
I'm giving him a small amount now which he is eating reluctantly.

I definitely do not feel comfortable giving the full 2.5 as the BG is still low and I definitely can not stay with him tomorrow.
 
Sorry one more he threw up this morning pretty much all his breakfast so as he ate nothing while I was gone he basically had no food in him.
 
He hasn't thrown anything up.

If Kaz was allowed he would eat nothing but dry food but due to his UTI issues he's not allowed dry food but I keep it in the house for emergencies and tiny treat here and there.

If he see's the dry food coming out he usually comes so I put a spoonful of the 20% carb in a bowl and mixed some dry morsels in with it and he ate it.

Since I got home I have managed to get him to eat one small can of 20% food with tiny amt of dry plus a bit of 4% again with a bit dry in it.
 
Okay. I see how you got him to eat with kibble. We can’t trust that number. You can’t stall very long because of work….

That 125 is, to me, still too low with honey and all the HC food so recently.
 
I have to give him his shot in the next 5 minutes so unless someone tells me what to give him I will have to give a very small amount as I am worried about him crashing when the effects of the food wear off.
 

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Okay, so technically we don't like to skip shots with cats who have gone DKA in the past (and his was March 2022). However, given his ketones are normal, I think you will be safe in giving a very small dose (.5 units) or skipping entirely. I see your chart. He's close to the 100 number that says .5 That was Bron's direction.
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
Okay, so technically we don't like to skip shots with cats who have gone DKA in the past (and his was March 2022). However, given his ketones are normal, I think you will be safe in giving a very small dose (.5 units) or skipping entirely. I see your chart. He's close to the 100 number that says .5 That was Bron's direction.
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No graph is my own judgement call if I am unable to get help.
Ok I'll give him 0.5 units.

Giving this to him now
 
Claire and Kaz said:
Is it safe to skip a dose if the insulin level has been at 2.5 units?
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I skipped doses with my cat many a time -- and he was on a HUGE dose (up to over 40 units at one point.) Kaz can be hurt by too much insulin, but too little will just cause him to go high temporarily. I'm very uncomfortable with a 51 on the Alpha Trak and him being wobbly and his current number is artificially inflated and it's still only 125... but that would not be 125 without the HC food. So I question the wisdom of even giving .5 units. If it were a non-food-influenced number then okay... but it's not.
 
Okay, your call. I think that, as long as you can monitor him and prop him up with food, honey, etc. as necessary, that he will be safe. But you have to make sure that he is staying up into safe numbers for two hours (with no HC food or honey intervention) before you can go to sleep for the night.
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
I skipped doses with my cat many a time -- and he was on a HUGE dose (up to over 40 units at one point.) Kaz can be hurt by too much insulin, but too little will just cause him to go high temporarily. I'm very uncomfortable with a 51 on the Alpha Trak and him being wobbly and his current number is artificially inflated and it's still only 125... but that would not be 125 without the HC food. So I question the wisdom of even giving .5 units. If it were a non-food-influenced number then okay... but it's not.
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I have already given him the 0.5 units so I can't take it back.
The 51 units is on a people monitor not the AT2 Bron had me switch a week ago due to my upcoming trip and the fact that the Libre button is based off human readings.
The 51 BG is at the very bottom end of the dark green. I am going to try feeding him again in a bout an hour he's pretty lethargic but he is alert if that makes sense.
I have honey sitting on my counter and will test him before I feed him.
Because he threw up in the MeowSpace hes now refusing to go in it even though I took it completely apart and washed it. This is worrying as I need him to eat when I am not here.
Going to try and make him eat all his small meals in there tonight so he see's it clean and safe again.
 
Claire and Kaz said:
I have already given him the 0.5 units so I can't take it back.
The 51 units is on a people monitor not the AT2 Bron had me switch a week ago due to my upcoming trip and the fact that the Libre button is based off human readings.
The 51 BG is at the very bottom end of the dark green. I am going to try feeding him again in a bout an hour he's pretty lethargic but he is alert if that makes sense.
I have honey sitting on my counter and will test him before I feed him.
Because he threw up in the MeowSpace hes now refusing to go in it even though I took it completely apart and washed it. This is worrying as I need him to eat when I am not here.
Going to try and make him eat all his small meals in there tonight so he see's it clean and safe again.
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Poor baby. I forgot you had made the switch to the human meter (which I prefer). 50 is the take action number. Then my only real problem is that I do not know what his “real” AMPS would be if he hadn’t had the HC food. That makes it hard to tell if it’s safe to shoot. But .5 is a very small amount compared to his normal amount and I think he will be fine. Bron should be along soon too, to catch up.
 
I don’t normally come on this early but did this morning …just reading what has happened. I’m glad Suzanne was around for you.
Sounds like he dropped to 51 because he vomited and didn’t eat during the day.
I don’t think it was because the dose was too high.
I’m glad you did give some insulin…..it’s a hard call given what happened and the circumstances.

I am very concerned though that he is lethargic and wobbly.
How is he eating now?
Do you think he is nauseated?
Do you have any antinausea medications such as cerenia or ondansetron at home?
I would try and get him to eat as much as you can….without making him want to vomit again of course.
 
Yes. The wobbly part bothered me a lot. I think that's why I was thinking that the 51 was an Alpha Trak an not the human meter reading. But I do think you, Claire, will be able to keep him safe. I'm very glad he's eating now. I am sure he will go high for a time, due to the .5 units, but that will be temporary.
 
Sorry Kaz is a bit unwell he's been sleeping on my lap and I did not want to move him. He did eat after the +2 however he will only eat Tiki right now which is 0 carb. Just tested him again and he's dropped slightly so I am going to see if he will eat a low carb one but if not have to give him the Tiki again.
 
Yes. I was checking his spreadsheet a little while ago while I was sitting in my car (parked) and sW he was in the blue. That’s good. I’m concerned about him not feeling well though (a relief that his ketones are low.).
 
He's more with it now he's walking straight again. He followed me into the lounge and has rolled onto his back while I am typing asking me to rub his tummy so I know he's feeling better.
I don't think I gave him enough insulin to put him into any danger.
He had a few of seizures last September which were brought on by the distemper shot and for a horrible minute tonight I thought that he might have one. He looked similar with the disorientation.

I am beginning to think that the more he goes into the green numbers the more this is going to happen which is concerning. However if he goes more into green then he will get another decrease if I am correct and less insulin is always good.

Was that a typo earlier when you said your cat had 40 units at one time? That seems way more than normal. Never thought a cat could ever have that much insulin at one time.
 
Claire and Kaz said:
He's more with it now he's walking straight again. He followed me into the lounge and has rolled onto his back while I am typing asking me to rub his tummy so I know he's feeling better.
I don't think I gave him enough insulin to put him into any danger.
He had a few of seizures last September which were brought on by the distemper shot and for a horrible minute tonight I thought that he might have one. He looked similar with the disorientation.

I am beginning to think that the more he goes into the green numbers the more this is going to happen which is concerning. However if he goes more into green then he will get another decrease if I am correct and less insulin is always good.

Was that a typo earlier when you said your cat had 40 units at one time? That seems way more than normal. Never thought a cat could ever have that much insulin at one time.
Click to expand...
My cat had Acromegaly, which is a condition caused by a tumor on the pituitary gland that causes an excess of growth hormone in the body. This excess growth hormone causes insulin resistance and that’s why cats with Acromegaly need a lot more insulin than a “regular” diabetic cat. We have quite a few cats on the Board now with Acromegaly.
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
My cat had Acromegaly, which is a condition caused by a tumor on the pituitary gland that causes an excess of growth hormone in the body. This excess growth hormone causes insulin resistance and that’s why cats with Acromegaly need a lot more insulin than a “regular” diabetic cat. We have quite a few cats on the Board now with Acromegaly.
Click to expand...

Going to have to read up on this never heard of this one.
Suzanne & Darcy said:
I would like to hear more about this. I am very against over-vaccinating cats. I am not against all vaccines for cats. Clearly, Kaz should not have the FVRCP vaccine again. That must have been so frightening.
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This was an unfortunate incident that could have been avoided. After Kaz got diagnosed with the 75% masses on his liver I sort of changed my vet to the Animal Hospital. Prior to this change I was seeing another vet who told me two years ago that the distemper could cause seizures in older cats and that as they were both indoor cats I did not have to have the shot. So I chose against the shot so for 9 years they had both received it then for two years they both stopped having it. Then fast forward to the new vet at the hospital. I went for the yearly and I know I clearly said to the vet do not give my cats the distemper. He claimed that he did not realize and he gave both of them the shot. That evening I happened to be in the living room on the computer when I saw Kaz fall off a raised bed. He hit the floor with force and then ran into a wall as he could not walk straight. Then I went after him as I did not know what was happening. He ran up the hall slamming into the wall the whole way up. I finally caught him and held him till it passed.
I immediately took him to the hospital and I was pretty angry when they tried to deny it had anything to do with the shot and said it was just coincidence.
Nothing they could do. I was told to take him home and watch him. Over the next week he had a few more episodes that I witnessed although there could have been more. Once they were over the cat was a bit disoriented, tired but otherwise ok. As the distemper worked it's way through the body the seizures became less and then one day just stopped.
They were talking about seizure medicine at one point.
Kaz has not been the luckiest kid on the block.

Ok its 11pm need to go sleep for a bit. Kaz's numbers are ok he's up to 158 and has eaten another couple of teaspoons.
 
Bron and Sheba (GA) said:
How is Kaz today! Is he any better?
Looks like Kaz is bouncing from the 51 today.
No dose in the AMPS U column but I’m assuming you gave the 2.5 units.
Click to expand...


Kaz's numbers continue to drop again and I am having issues getting him to eat any high carb food he doesn't seem to like any of it.
After the 8th or 9th can I finally found something he would eat. It's bit much tonight nothing seems to be working.
Guessing I may have issues tomorrow. I can stall a tiny bit tomorrow morning (can leave an hour later than usual) but have an appointment that I must attend after that.
Again treating the drop with high carb food which is a huge struggle to get him to eat this means he may not eat anything I leave him again tomorrow if it's not his usual food and the insulin appears to be really affecting him now.

Now coming up to 1am going to lie down for an hour as there is not much else I can do till I do another blood prick
 
I agree he seems to be needing less insulin, which is a good thing. Doing OK with the reduced dose which is good.
He doesn't need the high carb food when he is above 50 if you are going to be there to monitor. It is better to let him eat what he would normally eat when you are not there so we can see what the BG will do.
How are you going?. Getting enough sleep?.
 
Yes I am home to monitor right now but its 2.15am not really sure how much more I can do without sleep. Don't actually remember the last time I got more than 4 hours sleep at one time.
I have brought his number up again but this is food induced so I am petrified he's going to drop below 50 while I am at work.
He doesn't want any food now so I am not going to force him.

I did not feel like I had a choice regarding the high carb food he went from 333 to 188 within 2 hours and then to 106 2 hours after that and then to 85 2 hours after that. By now its 12.15am and I did not want to risk him dropping another 20-30 points then not waking up to test him so I fed the high carbs. He's definitely not himself he hasn't been since yesterday. He seems to know something is wrong as he came into my lap without treats or anything for the last blood test. Just thankful he's staying on the bed with me. I've given up trying to sleep I'm just monitoring him at this point. I know his Ketones are fine but something happened when I was not here that scared him and he's slow to get over it. Just need to get through Thursday then I am home for 4 days due to the holiday on Monday.

Going to go lie down for a while.
 
Quote I did not feel like I had a choice regarding the high carb food he went from 333 to 188 within 2 hours and then to 106 2 hours after that and then to 85 2 hours after that. Quote
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Actually, that was a pretty nice cycle. It seems like a lot of food though (1/2 small can Weruva 4% twice). Usually just a spoonful is enough to prop them up.) The only reason I am saying that is because, if he did continue to drop after the 85, you would want him to be hungry. High carb (and 15% is more like medium carb) should generally be saved for 50 or below (depends a lot on the cat.).

I am sooo sorry about your sleep deprivation. I also think I would be extremely anxious about him not eating. I know I would be.
 
You probably shot around 6:15 this morning, if I remember correctly. So it is approaching 7:15 and I know you will have to leave the house. Can you feed him a spoonful just before you go? Will he eat, do you think? If I need my cats to eat a small amount of food for any reason (even If it is trying to get them to clean up leftovers) I will sprinkle a little bit of FortiFlora on top of the food. That does the trick. Or a few Bonita flakes on the top of the food or a little sprinkle of Parmesan cheese on top of the food. That normally will get them to eat just a little bit of food and sometimes more.
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
You probably shot around 6:15 this morning, if I remember correctly. So it is approaching 7:15 and I know you will have to leave the house. Can you feed him a spoonful just before you go? Will he eat, do you think? If I need my cats to eat a small amount of food for any reason (even If it is trying to get them to clean up leftovers) I will sprinkle a little bit of FortiFlora on top of the food. That does the trick. Or a few Bonita flakes on the top of the food or a little sprinkle of Parmesan cheese on top of the food. That normally will get them to eat just a little bit of food and sometimes more.
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Already left waiting for appointment right now. I did feed him some food before I left he’s getting picky though I have three open containers in the fridge from this morning alone. Luckily Sam doesn’t bother so he will get some of it for his evening meal.

The only way Katz might eat food he doesn’t like is with a bit kibble in.

All the times are actually listed at the top of the spreadsheet I added it as it makes it easier to record numbers especially in the middle of the night.

Also left him two other very small meals with slightly higher carbs.
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
Have you tried grinding up some low carb kibble like Dr. Elsey’s and sprinkling a little of the “dust” on top of his food?
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I can try that but I don't think that it will work as he likes the crunch of it. The FortiFlora I actually have as my vet persuaded me to try it over the current probiotics I use (think mine are better) however Sam will take this but Kaz will not. I am assuming it must have a certain taste to it which he does not like.

Never heard of Bonito flakes I could try it don't think I would try parmesan cheese though based on a google search?


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Did you see something bad about sprinkling a tiny bit of parmesan cheese? Been doing this for years and I am not alone.

You’re right about the forti flora. It stinks as a probiotic with a single strain, but most cats love the taste so most people that I know only use it as an appetite stimulant. Too bad Kaz doesn’t like it ☹️
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
Did you see something bad about sprinkling a tiny bit of parmesan cheese? Been doing this for years and I am not alone.

You’re right about the forti flora. It stinks as a probiotic with a single strain, but most cats love the taste so most people that I know only use it as an appetite stimulant. Too bad Kaz doesn’t like it ☹️
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I looked it up and found what I snipped above. I would have thought this was not good for a diabetic cat due to the sugars but the upset stomach and high risk of death put me off. I checked three other websites and they all basically said the same. Not recommended.
 
Interesting. I've just looked it up and see some of what you found. I also found a ton of other sites saying it's okay and that true aged parmesan has something like .01 lactose. Anyway, I know you won't give it to him if it makes you uncomfortable. I was just trying to think of things that might help.
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
Interesting. I've just looked it up and see some of what you found. I also found a ton of other sites saying it's okay and that true aged parmesan has something like .01 lactose. Anyway, I know you won't give it to him if it makes you uncomfortable. I was just trying to think of things that might help.
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I absolutely appreciate it and take any help I can get. I will try the Bonita though to see if that would help.
Had same issue with him tonight. He simply did not want the food I opened so I put about 6 bits kibble in it. He watched me do it and then he ate the entire meal. He’s a weird one. I also know that as he now drinks so much more due to the diabetes this amount is not hurting him.
This is my last resort method if this ever stops working I will be in trouble as I really do not want to syringe feed.
 
Hi Claire, my Henry is super picky as well so I have to sprinkle goodies on his food. Have you tried Stella and Chewy Freeze Dried (different flavors - my kitty does not care for chicken but loves the lamb and salmon), orijen freeze dried sprinkled on the food (even if you break it, it still has crunch it won't break all the way), purebites freeze dried. I also tried this for moisture and he seems to love it. Chewy has the Weruva truluxe variety pack (not all are low carb) which was a hit for Henry especially the Steak Frites (6% carbs). If Kaz does not like it Chewy will refund. Henry loves his bonito flakes as well. He is so picky with wet food (prior dry food addict). I have to constantly invent new ways to make his food more enticing. Today he will like a can of something and tomorrow big no no. Hope you find something your baby will like.
 
I agree. My cats all love Pure Bites freeze dried chicken crumbled on their food. They love the shrimp too but those are not really very crumble-able.

As for Bonita flakes, I just buy the human grade ones from my local Fresh Market. They are used to make a traditional Japanese soup. Bonita are in the same family as mackerel and tuna, and the flakes are shaved very finely and dried. I used to buy the Cat Man Doo brand for cats, but now just get the human ones.
 
Roxana & Henry said:
Hi Claire, my Henry is super picky as well so I have to sprinkle goodies on his food. Have you tried Stella and Chewy Freeze Dried (different flavors - my kitty does not care for chicken but loves the lamb and salmon), orijen freeze dried sprinkled on the food (even if you break it, it still has crunch it won't break all the way), purebites freeze dried. I also tried this for moisture and he seems to love it. Chewy has the Weruva truluxe variety pack (not all are low carb) which was a hit for Henry especially the Steak Frites (6% carbs). If Kaz does not like it Chewy will refund. Henry loves his bonito flakes as well. He is so picky with wet food (prior dry food addict). I have to constantly invent new ways to make his food more enticing. Today he will like a can of something and tomorrow big no no. Hope you find something your baby will like.
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Hi Roxana
I buy Tiki and now Wernuva. I always buy from Chewy but a couple weeks ago I came across Pet Flow and have figured out how to get 15% off pretty much every time so I have bought from them last two times. I actually bought the Steak Frites that you mentioned (only sell by case) both cats hate it and I don't seem to be able to return the unused items. Learnt find the item elsewhere to try and then buy by the case from Pet Flow (sometimes Chewy is cheaper).
I'll look at the other items you suggested.

Thanks
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
I agree. My cats all love Pure Bites freeze dried chicken crumbled on their food. They love the shrimp too but those are not really very crumble-able.

As for Bonita flakes, I just buy the human grade ones from my local Fresh Market. They are used to make a traditional Japanese soup. Bonita are in the same family as mackerel and tuna, and the flakes are shaved very finely and dried. I used to buy the Cat Man Doo brand for cats, but now just get the human ones.
Click to expand...

I'll give it a try but Kaz doe not seem to like Mackerel and Tuna goes in cycles.
 
Claire and Kaz said:
Hi Roxana
I buy Tiki and now Wernuva. I always buy from Chewy but a couple weeks ago I came across Pet Flow and have figured out how to get 15% off pretty much every time so I have bought from them last two times. I actually bought the Steak Frites that you mentioned (only sell by case) both cats hate it and I don't seem to be able to return the unused items. Learnt find the item elsewhere to try and then buy by the case from Pet Flow (sometimes Chewy is cheaper).
I'll look at the other items you suggested.

Thanks
Click to expand...
You will have to keep experimenting for sure. You can first try it on Chewy and if cat does not like it, easy refund. Then if you know he likes it you can order it elsewhere. it is annoying to have to buy the cases for sure. I also forgot to mention shrimp (but not any kind he likes the cooked jumbo shrimp lol). Henry does not care about tuna or other fish but loves the bonita flakes - just not every day, have to alternate. He also loves beef to my big surprise and sometimes lamb. It is a challenge for sure. Here is another list of treats posted here (some are no longer sold but still good):https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/list-of-low-carb-healthy-treats.9172/
 
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