04/21 Eddie AMPS 482 +2.5 454 PMPS 236 +2.5 263 returning to normal

Hi Jodey, I only skimmed through you previous posts but is he getting antibiotics for the UTI? Those can cause GI issues including diarrhea and appetite loss. Is he getting a probiotic? I really like S. Boulardii

It's also possible he is put off my food he was eating when he was sick. Did you try a different food?

Like Elise said, if he looks nauseous, some ondansetron will help.
 
The antibiotic can be hard on them. I was just read your past posts as well. Hoping cerenia kicks I. Soon. Ondansetron was my go to. Until he wants to eat syringe small amounts often.
 
Hi Jodey, I only skimmed through you previous posts but is he getting antibiotics for the UTI? Those can cause GI issues including diarrhea and appetite loss. Is he getting a probiotic? I really like S. Boulardii

It's also possible he is put off my food he was eating when he was sick. Did you try a different food?

Like Elise said, if he looks nauseous, some ondansetron will help.
Hi Bhooma, yes, he's been on antibiotics. I was giving him S.Boulardii, thanks to a suggestion you made awhile back.

Hopefully, I can syringe enough into him after the cerenia to get him settled. He loves the food. Yesterday he was eating it like a boss. I think you may be right about the antibiotics. Since I had to pill him with the cerenia, I just didn't give him the antibiotic at the same time.
 
The probiotic and antibiotic need to be paced by at least 2 hours

If he's still having diarrhea you can increase the boulardii, how much are you currently giving him?

Hopefully a bit of syringes stuff is enough to get him to perk up, sometimes just getting that little bit into them helps
 
The probiotic and antibiotic need to be paced by at least 2 hours

If he's still having diarrhea you can increase the boulardii, how much are you currently giving him?

Hopefully a bit of syringes stuff is enough to get him to perk up, sometimes just getting that little bit into them helps

OMG, I think I know what's happened. In being overwhelmed with insulin issues, plus all his other medications (DDVAP, Prednisolone & Thryoxine) I MISREAD the instructions on the Clavaseptin!!!!! it says to give him 1/2 tablet every 12 hours. I have given him an ENTIRE TABLET for every 12 hours for the three days OMG!! No wonder he feels awful. Now we both do. I wouldn't have realized this except that I was calling the vet to get a liquid form of Clavaseptin and had to read the envelope to the vet tech. I just read this, too, :
Amoxicillin may also interact with certain urine glucose tests and cause false positive results.

Shoot me now.

@FrostD @Wendy&Neko What should I do???
 
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My vet overdosed Bandit on Clavamox last year and after a single dose, she started vomiting and she continued to vomit sporadically for over 24 hours - even though we discontinued it right away. Some cats find it very hard to tolerate.
 
My vet overdosed Bandit on Clavamox last year and after a single dose, she started vomiting and she continued to vomit sporadically for over 24 hours - even though we discontinued it right away. Some cats find it very hard to tolerate.
But I realize I've been doing this for three days. I can't believe. I'm usually so detail-oriented with all the medications and now this! Poor Eddie. Do you have any recommendations? I guess I should just keep syringe feeding soupy food with S. Bouldardi dissolved in it?
 
Hmm I would call the vet just to see if there's any potentially more serious effects from the overdosing, if you now need to skip the next dose, or what. But yes definitely keep trying to get him the small amounts of food with boulardii
 
What should I do???
Call the vet and ask. Most of us here are not vets.

In addition to the feeding with boulardii, I would add "test for ketones" to the list. And when you get a test result, add it to the Remarks section so we don't keep asking. ;)
Amoxicillin may also interact with certain urine glucose tests and cause false positive results.
Not a problem, you are doing BG tests, not urine tests.
 
Hmm I would call the vet just to see if there's any potentially more serious effects from the overdosing, if you now need to skip the next dose, or what. But yes definitely keep trying to get him the small amounts of food with boulardii
On t
Hmm I would call the vet just to see if there's any potentially more serious effects from the overdosing, if you now need to skip the next dose, or what. But yes definitely keep trying to get him the small amounts of food with boulardii

I called the vet. They said, "skip the morning dose". Haha. I'll be speaking with them later today and will also pick up some ketone test strips (but Eddie first has to get to the kitty box before I can make that notation.
 
Do you have any slippery elm bark that you can give to help sooth his entire GI tract?

I would definitely skip a dose. Poor Eddie. The vet said to skip one dose and then resume with the half tablet every 12 hours?? Is that right?

Clav is hard on the GI tract to begin with. I really think the slippery elm bark could help (made into a "syrup"... but they may also eat it in their food... I've done it before.) I would give it 1-2 hours prior to antibiotics so as not to potentially interfere with the absorption of the antibiotics (or other meds ... which could be hard since he's on a lot of different meds.)

Another vote here for Ondansetron. Absolutely the best for nausea (which hopefully will go away if you can get him back on the correct dose and maybe try some slippery elm). Ondansetron can cause constipation though.
 
Do you have any slippery elm bark that you can give to help sooth his entire GI tract?

I would definitely skip a dose. Poor Eddie. The vet said to skip one dose and then resume with the half tablet every 12 hours?? Is that right?

Clav is hard on the GI tract to begin with. I really think the slippery elm bark could help (made into a "syrup"... but they may also eat it in their food... I've done it before.) I would give it 1-2 hours prior to antibiotics so as not to potentially interfere with the absorption of the antibiotics (or other meds ... which could be hard since he's on a lot of different meds.)

Another vote here for Ondansetron. Absolutely the best for nausea (which hopefully will go away if you can get him back on the correct dose and maybe try some slippery elm). Ondansetron can cause constipation though.

Yes, skip the dose for the morning. Which I had already done. And, yes, resume with half tablet (i.e. correct dose) tonight.

I do not have slippery elm but can pick some up. Eddie seems no longer nauseated. In fact, he came down off his cat tower and ate a little food on his own. So, something is resolving.

Meanwhile, I'm still shaking my head over that mistake.
 
Yes, skip the dose for the morning. Which I had already done. And, yes, resume with half tablet (i.e. correct dose) tonight.

I do not have slippery elm but can pick some up. Eddie seems no longer nauseated. In fact, he came down off his cat tower and ate a little food on his own. So, something is resolving.

Meanwhile, I'm still shaking my head over that mistake.
You've got a lot on your plate and you've just been through a very stressful time. It sounds like he's going to be okay. Just slow down and be mindful about everything that you give him (which is probably your normal modus operandi.)
 
From felinecrf.org....

Slippery Elm Bark Formulations

Loose Powder
Ideally, you want organic or wild-crafted slippery elm bark powder from most good health food shops. See below for sources.

Capsules
If you cannot find loose slippery elm bark, you can usually find capsules in a 350-400mg size. Try to ensure the capsules contain only pure slippery elm bark, no fillers, because it can be virtually impossible to make the syrup recipe from capsules containing anything other than slippery elm bark (it will not thicken).

Unfortunately it is difficult to find capsules that don't contain magnesium stearate because it is a glidant used in the manufacturing process (it helps the powder flow when the capsules are being filled). Magnesium stearate is safe for cats but may affect the thickening of the syrup, though some people have been able to make it successfully from such capsules. There is one US supplier below selling capsules containing slippery elm bark only.

Tinctures
I would avoid tinctures because they often contain other ingredients, especially alcohol, though some members of my support group in the USA have managed to find one brand without alcohol.

Slippery Elm Bark Dosage

The usual dosage is:
  • 1/8 to 1/4 (0.125 - 0.25) of a teaspoon of the organic or wild-crafted slippery elm bark powder once or twice a day; or

  • one 350-400mg capsule a day. You can give these whole or open them and sprinkle on the cat's food once or twice a day.
Most cats are given slippery elm bark daily, but some cats do not need it every day, so experiment and see what works best for your cat.

I open the capsules and sprinkle the slippery elm bark into my cat's food and mix it up, but slippery elm bark has a bittersweet flavour which some cats do not like. In that case, try giving it in a capsule, either the one it came in (though these may well be too big for the average cat) or, if you are using loose slippery elm bark, purchase gelcaps separately for this purpose.

Some people have found their cat will eat slippery elm bark if it is mixed in a little baby food (make sure the baby food does not contain any onion).

Syrup Recipe
You can also make slippery elm bark into a syrup that is used for digestive problems or for mouth sores or ulcers. It has the same soothing and healing effects in the mouth — try dabbing in your cat's mouth ulcers if required. The syrup is weaker than the straight powder, so you can give a little more of it. Some people have told me they find it hard to place the syrup on their cat's mouth ulcers if they are in hard-to-reach areas of the mouth. In such cases, you may wish to use a syringe to aim the syrup at the ulcers.

If you are using slippery elm bark decanted from capsules, you need pure slippery elm bark with no fillers, otherwise the syrup will usually not thicken properly.

Stovetop Method

  • Take a stainless steel or heat-proof glass pan (not an aluminium or non-stick one).
  • Put one cup of cold water in the pan.
  • Sprinkle 1 to 1.5 tsp of slippery elm bark powder on to the water.
  • Let it sit until the powder is damp (this should not take too long), then bring to the boil stirring constantly.
  • Reduce the heat and simmer, still stirring constantly, until it thickens, about 3 minutes or so. It will be the consistency of watery egg whites.
  • Allow to cool and give ¼ - ½ (0.25 to 0.5) teaspoon up to 4 times a day.
  • This will keep at room temperature for a day or in the fridge for up to five days.
Microwave Method
For the non-cooks among us, one of my support group members came up with this method but it may not work with powdered slippery elm bark.
  • Take a glass container which holds two cups.
  • Put one cup of water in the cup.
  • Add 1 to 1.5 tsp of slippery elm bark powder.
  • Heat in the microwave on high for about 1.5 minutes.
  • Remove from the microwave and stir, then put it back in for about another 30 seconds.
  • Keep an eye on it because you do not want it to boil over.
  • Remove from the microwave and stir again.
  • Allow to cool and give ¼ - ½ (0.25 to 0.5) teaspoon up to 4 times a day.
  • This will keep at room temperature for a day or in the fridge for up to five days.
Slippery Elm Bark: Where to Buy
USA
San Francisco Herb Co
sells loose slippery elm bark powder at the best price I've found, US$22.20 per pound plus exact shipping cost, but their minimum order is for US$30. They will waive this on request and charge a US$7 small order fee instead; alternatively you could stock up on other products such as catnip.

Frontier Natural Products Co-Op sells loose slippery elm bark, in both organic and standard forms. You can also find Frontier products on Amazon.

Mountain Rose Herbs sell 4 oz of slippery elm bark powder for US$9.75.

Whole Foods Market sells slippery elm bark in bulk in its stores in USA and Canada.

Vitacost sells 4 oz of the NOW brand for US$9.00.

Iherb sells 4 oz of the NOW brand of slippery elm bark powder for US$8.99.

Iherb also sells 100 Christopher's Original Formula 400mg capsules without any fillers.

Vitamin Shoppe sells slippery elm bark capsules.

Swanson Vitamins sells its own brand 400mg slippery elm bark capsules for US$3.49 for 60.

Canada
Amazon Canada
sells a 1 lb bag of Starwest Botanicals organic slippery elm bark powder for CAN$59.99.


Slippery Elm Bark: Cautions
PennState Hershey states that slippery elm bark can inhibit the absorption of other medications or supplements. It is therefore best to give it 1-2 hours before or after any other medications (especially antibiotics), and ideally on an empty stomach, although it is safe to sprinkle it on food if you wish.

Slippery elm bark also contains calcium, so it is probably safer not to use it if your cat has hypercalcaemia.
 
From felinecrf.org....

Slippery Elm Bark Formulations

Loose Powder
Ideally, you want organic or wild-crafted slippery elm bark powder from most good health food shops. See below for sources.

Capsules
If you cannot find loose slippery elm bark, you can usually find capsules in a 350-400mg size. Try to ensure the capsules contain only pure slippery elm bark, no fillers, because it can be virtually impossible to make the syrup recipe from capsules containing anything other than slippery elm bark (it will not thicken).

Unfortunately it is difficult to find capsules that don't contain magnesium stearate because it is a glidant used in the manufacturing process (it helps the powder flow when the capsules are being filled). Magnesium stearate is safe for cats but may affect the thickening of the syrup, though some people have been able to make it successfully from such capsules. There is one US supplier below selling capsules containing slippery elm bark only.

Tinctures
I would avoid tinctures because they often contain other ingredients, especially alcohol, though some members of my support group in the USA have managed to find one brand without alcohol.

Slippery Elm Bark Dosage

The usual dosage is:
  • 1/8 to 1/4 (0.125 - 0.25) of a teaspoon of the organic or wild-crafted slippery elm bark powder once or twice a day; or

  • one 350-400mg capsule a day. You can give these whole or open them and sprinkle on the cat's food once or twice a day.
Most cats are given slippery elm bark daily, but some cats do not need it every day, so experiment and see what works best for your cat.

I open the capsules and sprinkle the slippery elm bark into my cat's food and mix it up, but slippery elm bark has a bittersweet flavour which some cats do not like. In that case, try giving it in a capsule, either the one it came in (though these may well be too big for the average cat) or, if you are using loose slippery elm bark, purchase gelcaps separately for this purpose.

Some people have found their cat will eat slippery elm bark if it is mixed in a little baby food (make sure the baby food does not contain any onion).

Syrup Recipe
You can also make slippery elm bark into a syrup that is used for digestive problems or for mouth sores or ulcers. It has the same soothing and healing effects in the mouth — try dabbing in your cat's mouth ulcers if required. The syrup is weaker than the straight powder, so you can give a little more of it. Some people have told me they find it hard to place the syrup on their cat's mouth ulcers if they are in hard-to-reach areas of the mouth. In such cases, you may wish to use a syringe to aim the syrup at the ulcers.

If you are using slippery elm bark decanted from capsules, you need pure slippery elm bark with no fillers, otherwise the syrup will usually not thicken properly.

Stovetop Method

  • Take a stainless steel or heat-proof glass pan (not an aluminium or non-stick one).
  • Put one cup of cold water in the pan.
  • Sprinkle 1 to 1.5 tsp of slippery elm bark powder on to the water.
  • Let it sit until the powder is damp (this should not take too long), then bring to the boil stirring constantly.
  • Reduce the heat and simmer, still stirring constantly, until it thickens, about 3 minutes or so. It will be the consistency of watery egg whites.
  • Allow to cool and give ¼ - ½ (0.25 to 0.5) teaspoon up to 4 times a day.
  • This will keep at room temperature for a day or in the fridge for up to five days.
Microwave Method
For the non-cooks among us, one of my support group members came up with this method but it may not work with powdered slippery elm bark.
  • Take a glass container which holds two cups.
  • Put one cup of water in the cup.
  • Add 1 to 1.5 tsp of slippery elm bark powder.
  • Heat in the microwave on high for about 1.5 minutes.
  • Remove from the microwave and stir, then put it back in for about another 30 seconds.
  • Keep an eye on it because you do not want it to boil over.
  • Remove from the microwave and stir again.
  • Allow to cool and give ¼ - ½ (0.25 to 0.5) teaspoon up to 4 times a day.
  • This will keep at room temperature for a day or in the fridge for up to five days.
Slippery Elm Bark: Where to Buy
USA
San Francisco Herb Co
sells loose slippery elm bark powder at the best price I've found, US$22.20 per pound plus exact shipping cost, but their minimum order is for US$30. They will waive this on request and charge a US$7 small order fee instead; alternatively you could stock up on other products such as catnip.

Frontier Natural Products Co-Op sells loose slippery elm bark, in both organic and standard forms. You can also find Frontier products on Amazon.

Mountain Rose Herbs sell 4 oz of slippery elm bark powder for US$9.75.

Whole Foods Market sells slippery elm bark in bulk in its stores in USA and Canada.

Vitacost sells 4 oz of the NOW brand for US$9.00.

Iherb sells 4 oz of the NOW brand of slippery elm bark powder for US$8.99.

Iherb also sells 100 Christopher's Original Formula 400mg capsules without any fillers.

Vitamin Shoppe sells slippery elm bark capsules.

Swanson Vitamins sells its own brand 400mg slippery elm bark capsules for US$3.49 for 60.

Canada
Amazon Canada
sells a 1 lb bag of Starwest Botanicals organic slippery elm bark powder for CAN$59.99.


Slippery Elm Bark: Cautions
PennState Hershey states that slippery elm bark can inhibit the absorption of other medications or supplements. It is therefore best to give it 1-2 hours before or after any other medications (especially antibiotics), and ideally on an empty stomach, although it is safe to sprinkle it on food if you wish.

Slippery elm bark also contains calcium, so it is probably safer not to use it if your cat has hypercalcaemia.
Wow, thank you for this!!!
 
Update: Eddie spent the day in the living room. When I came back just now I was preparing the food for everyone and thought if he doesn't come in of his own accord, I'll go back to the syringe.

He came through the kitchen, walked over to his incline scratch platform, gave it a few good scratches, returned to the kitchen ate his entire bowl of food (with more S. Boulardi). I see no diarrhea and no more queasiness. After finishing the entire bowl, he strolled into the living again where he's now sitting by the gas fireplace.

I was the problem this time. I realize I just had so much on my plate that I did not carefully read the dosage or rather I just read it as I did, which I guess is the same thing. I really had a horrible moment when I was reading out the prescription and it struck me like lightning what I had been doing. A lesson for me.

So, I think Eddie is ok. I'm going to stock up on slippery elm and I've got a call in for Ondansetron which will find a place in Eddie's medicine cabinet. I'll pick that up and some ketone strips.
 
Great news on Eddie feeling better and eating!:) Again, don't beat yourself up. :bighug:You did catch the problem.

I buy Slippery Elm Bark from Carnivora, this one. There are a few stores selling Carnivora in your town, check out Bone & Biscuit for one. You don't need to cook or microwave it, just add liquid and stir to get thickness desired. I sometimes added to home made chicken stock (just boiled chicken).

You want a prescription for ondasetron, don't buy the product from the vet. Generics will only cost you part of the arm and a leg. :rolleyes: It's about $4 a pill in Canada, do phone around as I've seen it as high as $5. Zofran, the brand, is ridiculously expensive.
 
Great news on Eddie feeling better and eating!:) Again, don't beat yourself up. :bighug:You did catch the problem.

I buy Slippery Elm Bark from Carnivora, this one. There are a few stores selling Carnivora in your town, check out Bone & Biscuit for one. You don't need to cook or microwave it, just add liquid and stir to get thickness desired. I sometimes added to home made chicken stock (just boiled chicken).

You want a prescription for ondasetron, don't buy the product from the vet. Generics will only cost you part of the arm and a leg. :rolleyes: It's about $4 a pill in Canada, do phone around as I've seen it as high as $5. Zofran, the brand, is ridiculously expensive.

Yes, I know the Bone & Biscuit, I'll check that out. Thanks!

About Ondasetron: the only vet that has it is the emergency clinic where Eddie was and they have only the injectable. The vet is calling in a prescription for it as it needs be compounded...I have one Cerenia left for the morning if I need it.
 
((((@Jodey&Eddie )))) As best you can, try to get a good night's sleep. You've really been through the wringer. And be kind to yourself, we all do the best we can do, Eddie knows and appreciates this. :bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug:
Thank you! As I said, I feel relief that he ate on his own and if by shot time he decides he doesn't want to eat, I'll just slip some food into a syringe again.
 
Yes, I know the Bone & Biscuit, I'll check that out. Thanks!

About Ondasetron: the only vet that has it is the emergency clinic where Eddie was and they have only the injectable. The vet is calling in a prescription for it as it needs be compounded...I have one Cerenia left for the morning if I need it.
...why does it need to be compounded? Is that a Canadian thing? Or Eddie will only take it compounded?

I get 4mg pills from the pharmacy and split in half and just pill him, I think I've heard it's a bit bitter though
 
...why does it need to be compounded? Is that a Canadian thing? Or Eddie will only take it compounded?

I get 4mg pills from the pharmacy and split in half and just pill him, I think I've heard it's a bit bitter though

This is the word I got from the vet's office. I'll investigate further in the morning. I'm always getting strange information from the regular vet anyway, so maybe this is wrong.
 
The vet is calling in a prescription for it as it needs be compounded.
No it doesn't. A human med, 4 mg amounts can be obtained at most human pharmacies. Injectables are not a bad option if kitty is off their food and hard to medicate. I got this at Save On Foods pharmacy this year. And have gotten it at other pharmacies too.
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I never bother to cook my slippery elm bark either. Too much work. Makes a great mucilaginous solution just mixed with liquid (to be syringed in) or I have mixed it in with all meat baby food and kitty eats it up.
 
No it doesn't. A human med, 4 mg amounts can be obtained at most human pharmacies. Injectables are not a bad option if kitty is off their food and hard to medicate. I got this at Save On Foods pharmacy this year. And have gotten it at other pharmacies too.
View attachment 64096
ETA: My vet just phoned in the prescription to my pharmacy of choice.
Even after I told the vet that the emergency clinic had Eddie on Ondansetron, he just emailed me to say "I do not use Ondansetron, I use Maropitant. Therefore I do not feel comfortable prescribing Ondansetron."
Le sigh. Is there a difference?
 
Le sigh. Is there a difference?
Yes, for the majority of cats, ondansetron works better for anti nausea on it's own. Cerenia (maropitant) is better for vomiting though ondansetron does help. They target different nausea receptors. Ondansetron targets the 5-HT3 receptor antagonist and Cerenia targets the NK-1 receptor antagonist. For some reason, many vets are reluctant to use ondansetron. I had to ask Neko's internal medicine vet to humour me to try it. It made a world of difference. A couple papers if your vet responds to those:
Quimby JM et al,"Oral, subcutaneous, and intravenous pharmacokinetics of ondansetron in healthy cats," J Vet Pharmacol Ther. Aug 2014 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4059788/
and Andrew H.Sparkes et al, “ISFM Consensus Guidelines on the Diagnosis and Management of Feline Chronic Kidney Disease,”Table 9;Journal of Feline Medicine and Surgery, March 2016 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1098612X16631234

Although the same studies haven't been done on cats, one study on chemo induced nausea on dogs showed 90% reduction in nausea for ondansetron, 25% for Cerenia.

You can give both drugs at the same time. Cerenia is just once a day dosing, ondasetron you can do up to 4 times, though sometimes twice a day will do.

Was this the IM vet rejecting the idea or the general practice vet?
 
Yes, for the majority of cats, ondansetron works better for anti nausea on it's own. Cerenia (maropitant) is better for vomiting though ondansetron does help. They target different nausea receptors. Ondansetron targets the 5-HT3 receptor antagonist and Cerenia targets the NK-1 receptor antagonist. For some reason, many vets are reluctant to use ondansetron. I had to ask Neko's internal medicine vet to humour me to try it. It made a world of difference. A couple papers if your vet responds to those:
Quimby JM et al,"Oral, subcutaneous, and intravenous pharmacokinetics of ondansetron in healthy cats," J Vet Pharmacol Ther. Aug 2014 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4059788/
and Andrew H.Sparkes et al, “ISFM Consensus Guidelines on the Diagnosis and Management of Feline Chronic Kidney Disease,”Table 9;Journal of Feline Medicine and Surgery, March 2016 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1098612X16631234

Although the same studies haven't been done on cats, one study on chemo induced nausea on dogs showed 90% reduction in nausea for ondansetron, 25% for Cerenia.

You can give both drugs at the same time. Cerenia is just once a day dosing, ondasetron you can do up to 4 times, though sometimes twice a day will do.

Was this the IM vet rejecting the idea or the general practice vet?

It was the IM vet who works with the GP vet in the same clinic. In fact, the IM vet had kind of handed Eddie over to the GP vet unless we were talking about insulin. He's very odd. I'm going to read up and think asking him to humour me might be a way to get around things.
 
With Neko's IM vet, I was able to say the Cerenia by itself wasn't doing the job, and would there be any harm in trying ondansetron too. So I wasn't asking for ondansetron instead of, but rather involving him in the decision. Turns out the Cerenia was underdosed, but that's another story. The ondansetron did help.
 
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