? Spreadsheet shared and seeking advice

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RPride

RPride

Member Since 2022
We are a week and a half into our diabetes journey with 17 year old Marie and I am unsure what to do next. The vet started Marie at 3 units of ProZinc and we quickly determined, after 3 cycles, that was going to be too high of a dosage. We did change her diet to completely low carb wet food upon diagnosis. I would have tried this first, before insulin, but I was unprepared for this diagnosis. She does have beginning stages of kidney issues so I was expecting that to be the issue. She was given her first dose of insulin at her appointment at diagnosis. I found this group the same day but she already had 3 units so I thought I needed to keep it going. However, we have come down in dose and are now at .5 units, but I have been unable to give her the insulin due to numbers under 200. I am unsure how to move forward and would love some help. She is scheduled for a dental on Monday and I am so nervous! I want to make sure I am preparing her the best I can. Should I still do .5 units at each cycle if and only if she reaches 200?? She had a couple low numbers about 90 so I am nervous about that as well. Additionally, she has what they were calling arthritis but, after some research, it appears it could be neuropathy. Is the methyl-B a good supplement to add this early after diagnosis? Should I halt to injections she is receiving for arthritis? And one spreadsheet question, on the labs tab, should we change the ranges if they are not the same as the ones our vet provided on their reports? Thank you all so much. This resource has given me some sanity and is helping our little pin cushion get back on her feet...quite literally!
 
Previous post which was her intro post
https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/prozinc-and-early-kidney-issues.258725/

I will tag a few members for you about the dose and to look at your SS
I see Melissa helped you on your intro thread

Are you feeding Marie the weruva wet food since she has the beginning of kidney issues ?
I gave you a list on your previous post.

You can start the Methyl B-12 now if you want to I will give you a link for it
Also for the labs you can changes the ranges that are on there already if they aren't the same as your vets, you can make a note below what lab they were sent to or if they were in house

@FrostD

@JanetNJ
 
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Thank you for your response and for tagging other members. I'm never quite sure if I'm posting correctly so I appreciate your help so much.

Marie is eating some of the Weruva wet food but she is not a huge fan yet. She is also eating Wellness wet food. I know it is not as low phosphorous as the Weruva but it was still below the 250. Is that okay or do you suggest trying to push the Weruva more? I just don't want to turn her off since we had to remove her previous diet of Fancy Feast.

Yes, I would like the link for the Methyl B-12. Do you know how to tell the difference between arthritis and neuropathy? I don't want to cause more harm than good.

Thank you for the info on the labs. I will add them in as soon as I can.
 
This is actually the greatest thing I've seen all day!

So, here's where you have some decisions to make:
- Her BGs are still higher than I'd like. Ideally, those "preshots" should be green for 2 weeks without insulin before we'd call it remission . Which leads me to my next point....
- I think you need to try MPM, that's the method where reductions are under 50. It involves a fair amount of testing when they get this low and close to remission, so if you aren't home during the day or have trouble testing at least once at night I'll have to rethink.
- Do you think you can relatively accurately measure 0.1U on your syringes? It depends on the syringe, but on most it would be the plunger just barely pulled up. We could do 0.25U, but I think 0.1U might be a better way to ease you into these lower numbers.
 
I do believe I can do that but it does scare me! However, this is what we aim for so I think I'm ready. That being said, we have to be out of town for a few hours on Saturday and then she has a dental on Monday. Do you think I should start it now or wait until she is done with her dental?
 
RPride said:
Marie is eating some of the Weruva wet food but she is not a huge fan yet. She is also eating Wellness wet food. I know it is not as low phosphorous as the Weruva but it was still below the 250. Is that okay or do you suggest trying to push the Weruva more? I just don't want to turn her off since we had to remove her previous diet of Fancy Feast.

Yes, I would like the link for the Methyl B-12. Do you know how to tell the difference between arthritis and neuropathy? I don't want to cause more harm than good.
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The Wellness should be fine as long as the carbs were low and the phosphorus was under 250
I really couldn't say if I knew the difference between arthritis and neuropathy
Tyler had neuropathy , he was walking flat footed like a rabbit would, his back legs
He would then have to stop and rest for awhile and then continue to walk
It took about 2 months before he was back to walking normal
You can ask your vet if an x-ray would show arthritis

Here is the link for the Methy B-12. Give one a day mixed in the wet food , add water ,mix it up
It's also tasteless
https://www.vitacost.com/vitacost-vitamin-b-12-methylcobalamin-5000-mcg-100-capsules-6
 
RPride said:
I do believe I can do that but it does scare me! However, this is what we aim for so I think I'm ready. That being said, we have to be out of town for a few hours on Saturday and then she has a dental on Monday. Do you think I should start it now or wait until she is done with her dental?
Click to expand...

Tagging Melissa
@FrostD
 
RPride said:
I do believe I can do that but it does scare me! However, this is what we aim for so I think I'm ready. That being said, we have to be out of town for a few hours on Saturday and then she has a dental on Monday. Do you think I should start it now or wait until she is done with her dental?
Click to expand...
Oh! Wait til after the dental. To be honest that may completely bring everything down in normal range. For now just check ketones, if those start to show trace let me know and we'll figure out a plan
 
Diane Tyler's Mom said:
The Wellness should be fine as long as the carbs were low and the phosphorus was under 250
I really couldn't say if I knew the difference between arthritis and neuropathy
Tyler had neuropathy , he was walking flat footed like a rabbit would, his back legs
He would then have to stop and rest for awhile and then continue to walk
It took about 2 months before he was back to walking normal
You can ask your vet if an x-ray would show arthritis

Here is the link for the Methy B-12. Give one a day mixed in the wet food , add water ,mix it up
It's also tasteless
https://www.vitacost.com/vitacost-vitamin-b-12-methylcobalamin-5000-mcg-100-capsules-6
Click to expand...
Thank you for the information! Marie is doing exactly as you described Tyler as doing. I will order the Methyl B-12 now.
 
FrostD said:
Oh! Wait til after the dental. To be honest that may completely bring everything down in normal range. For now just check ketones, if those start to show trace let me know and we'll figure out a plan
Click to expand...
I will be sure to test the ketones daily. Should I keep checking BG at her normal cycle times and administer insulin if it is over 200?
 
RPride said:
Thank you for the information! Marie is doing exactly as you described Tyler as doing. I will order the Methyl B-12 now.
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Ok good, just give it a couple of months, you may see an improvement sooner
Just mix it up good with water, maybe even warm the food up in the microwave
 
Diane Tyler's Mom said:
And that's not helping, how long has she been getting them?
How do they know it's arthritis
I can tag some other members that use adequan
Click to expand...
She has been getting them for 8 months, I believe. I would have to check the date to be sure. But I have not noticed any improvement until she started on the insulin and low carb diet. That is what made me think it might be neuropathy. She has also lost some weight so that probably helped mobility a bit as well. I just don't want to give her things she doesn't need. I'd love if you would tag fellow adequan users. Thank you!
 
FrostD said:
Yes, and yes if you can monitor. I'd do something like 0.25U
Click to expand...
Yes I can do that. I will just check every 12 hours and if she's above 200 I'll administer .25 units. And maybe a ketones test daily? Also, how long after the dental should I wait to start any changes?
 
@FrostD
Melissa her kitty is getting adequan injections once a month, Vet thinks she has arthritis, but she thinks it's neuropathy . I described how Tyler was walking when he had it and she said that's exactly how her kitty is walking.
She was wondering if she should stop the adequan injections
Do you have any thoughts see #19
Melissa do you want to go have a drink later :p:p
 
RPride said:
Yes I can do that. I will just check every 12 hours and if she's above 200 I'll administer .25 units. And maybe a ketones test daily? Also, how long after the dental should I wait to start any changes?
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Yes, I would do ketones daily just to be safe. At these numbers I wouldn't stress if you can't get one one day.

And sorry @Diane Tyler's Mom I don't know anything about adequan vs neuropathy. From what I've read here, the adequan usually works pretty quickly (not 8 months).

Tagging @Katherine&Ruby since she recently started adequan for ruby
 
Diane Tyler's Mom said:
Yes it's ok, I used to give it to Tyler's brother who had kidney disease, I had joined a kidney group and they all said to give it
Did the vet do an x-ray and say it was arthritis?
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That's a relief! I figured it would be fine for diabetes and bad for kidneys. The vet did not do x-rays for the arthritis. I guess she based it on observation??
 
FrostD said:
Yes, I would do ketones daily just to be safe. At these numbers I wouldn't stress if you can't get one one day.

And sorry @Diane Tyler's Mom I don't know anything about adequan vs neuropathy. From what I've read here, the adequan usually works pretty quickly (not 8 months).

Tagging @Katherine&Ruby since she recently started adequan for ruby
Click to expand...
Okay I will just add in the ketone test to our daily routine. I thought the same thing about Adequan that it should work a bit faster than 8 months. But I thought maybe she was feeling benefits that I couldn't see. I'm learning so much here!
 
RPride said:
That's a relief! I figured it would be fine for diabetes and bad for kidneys. The vet did not do x-rays for the arthritis. I guess she based it on observation??
Click to expand...
OK will tag a few members, just to make sure Marie is walking like a rabbit flat footed, did you notice it before she was diagnosed? That's when I noticed it , took Tyler to my vet and she immediately knew he was diabetic and it was neuropathy.
Is she sliding around on the floor, wood floors or kitchen floor?
 
Diane Tyler's Mom said:
OK will tag a few members, just to make sure Marie is walking like a rabbit flat footed, did you notice it before she was diagnosed? That's when I noticed it , took Tyler to my vet and she immediately knew he was diabetic and it was neuropathy.
Is she sliding around on the floor, wood floors or kitchen floor?
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I did notice before diagnosis that she was walking differently but didn't put much more thought into it when the vet said arthritis. I wish I would have now! Yes, her feet slide out from under her so I have been covering the floors in rugs and runners because I felt bad for her. I thought it was just that she was old and couldn't hold herself up as well. Also, she walks down on her "wrists" in the front.
 
RPride said:
I did notice before diagnosis that she was walking differently but didn't put much more thought into it when the vet said arthritis. I wish I would have now! Yes, her feet slide out from under her so I have been covering the floors in rugs and runners because I felt bad for her. I thought it was just that she was old and couldn't hold herself up as well. Also, she walks down on her "wrists" in the front.
Click to expand...
Does sound like neuropathy
Give me a minute to explain what's been going on and then I'll tag some members







@JanetNJ



Hi Ladies I'll try to make this short
Ryan"s kitty Marie has been getting adequan injections monthly for 8 months, and see's no improvement. Her vet did not do x-rays just said it was arthritis by looking at her walk
If you can skim thru some of the posts that would be helpful to see what we've been talking about
Ryan thinks it's neuropathy , I described how Tyler was walking before he was diagnosed and Ryan noticed it also before Marie was diagnosed

Her question is should she continue with the adequan? Maybe it's not arthritis, How do they diagnose it ! Is it x-rays?
She just ordered the Methyl B-12

Thank you
 
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Diane Tyler's Mom said:
Just tagged some members , just want to be sure your name is Ryan ?
Marie looks like a sweety, poor baby walking like that
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Thank you so much for tagging them. Yes, my name is Ryan and I am Marie's mom. Thank you, she is a sweet girl. I hate seeing her slide around but I'm very hopeful!
 
FrostD said:
Yes, I would do ketones daily just to be safe. At these numbers I wouldn't stress if you can't get one one day.

And sorry @Diane Tyler's Mom I don't know anything about adequan vs neuropathy. From what I've read here, the adequan usually works pretty quickly (not 8 months).

Tagging @Katherine&Ruby since she recently started adequan for ruby
Click to expand...
Oh I forgot part of the question - I would just monitor BG for a day or two after dental and see where she's at
 
FrostD said:
Oh I forgot part of the question - I would just monitor BG for a day or two after dental and see where she's at
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That sounds good! Now we just have to get through this dental that has me worrying like crazy!
 
Hi Ryan, This is a good video showing a cat with neuropathy. You'll see Tootsie walks on the back of her legs or her haunches rather than on the tips of her paws like a cat should. Does Marie do this? If so, methyl B12 supplementation should help as well as better control of her glucose levels.

 
@Katherine&Ruby
Ryan"s kitty Marie has been getting adequan injections monthly for 8 months, and see's no improvement. Her vet did not do x-rays just said it was arthritis by looking at her walked
Her question is should she continue with the adequan? Maybe it's not arthritis, How do they diagnose it ! Is it x-rays?
What do you think? Don't know if you can give your opinion on this
Thanks Katherine
 
Katherine&Ruby said:
Hi Ryan, This is a good video showing a cat with neuropathy. You'll see Tootsie walks on the back of her legs or her haunches rather than on the tips of her paws like a cat should. Does Marie do this? If so, methyl B12 supplementation should help as well as better control of her glucose levels.

Click to expand...
That's a great video! Marie isn't quite as "wiggly" in the hind end as Tootsie. She is a bit more stiff, so maybe it could be a bit of both?? She does walk down on her wrists and her feet slide out on the wood floors. She has to stop and rest walking from room to room. But she is walking a lot longer distances after starting insulin and low carb a week and a half ago and I saw no progress with the arthritis injection the last 8 months! Thank you for the video. I'm going to compare closely to Marie when she wakes up to run away from me at testing time haha
 
If none of the others that I tagged , I'll tag them again in the late morning
Ryan just in case you need to tag anyone do you know how to do it?
When you're done writing what you want to and need advice
Start to type in the first 3 letters or so of the member you want to tag , a drop down will appear, look for the members name and just tap on it

It should be blue after you hit post. If you don't see it blue it didn't work
You can just look at the persons name and just copy it
 
Diane Tyler's Mom said:
If none of the others that I tagged , I'll tag them again in the late morning
Ryan just in case you need to tag anyone do you know how to do it?
When you're done writing what you want to and need advice
Start to type in the first 3 letters or so of the member you want to tag , a drop down will appear, look for the members name and just tap on it

It should be blue after you hit post. If you don't see it blue it didn't work
You can just look at the persons name and just copy it
Click to expand...
Thank you for that information because I had no idea!
 
RPride said:
That's a great video! Marie isn't quite as "wiggly" in the hind end as Tootsie. She is a bit more stiff, so maybe it could be a bit of both?? She does walk down on her wrists and her feet slide out on the wood floors. She has to stop and rest walking from room to room. But she is walking a lot longer distances after starting insulin and low carb a week and a half ago and I saw no progress with the arthritis injection the last 8 months! Thank you for the video. I'm going to compare closely to Marie when she wakes up to run away from me at testing time haha
Click to expand...
Tootsie got better within a month of taking supplemental B12. I would try it and see if it makes things better for Marie. My kitty has been on Adequan for a few weeks and she is much less stiff and jumps up to places she never did before, but every cat is different. Daily massage, a heated cat bed and fish oil added to her food are also ways of helping pain and inflammation in the joints. Acupuncture and cold laser therapy are other options.
 
Katherine&Ruby said:
Tootsie got better within a month of taking supplemental B12. I would try it and see if it makes things better for Marie. My kitty has been on Adequan for a few weeks and she is much less stiff and jumps up to places she never did before, but every cat is different. Daily massage, a heated cat bed and fish oil added to her food are also ways of helping pain and inflammation in the joints. Acupuncture and cold laser therapy are other options.
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Thank you for all of the information! I will check into all of the supplements you mentioned. Massage might be okay in her "green light" areas but those change from day to day. I'm hoping maybe to do the Adequan, Methyl B-12, and Kidney Support Gold together but I'm worried it might be too much. My vet doesn't talk much about supplements so I don't get much information there. So, Thank you for sharing your experience! I'm out of my element with all of this.
 
RPride said:
Thank you for all of the information! I will check into all of the supplements you mentioned. Massage might be okay in her "green light" areas but those change from day to day. I'm hoping maybe to do the Adequan, Methyl B-12, and Kidney Support Gold together but I'm worried it might be too much. My vet doesn't talk much about supplements so I don't get much information there. So, Thank you for sharing your experience! I'm out of my element with all of this.
Click to expand...
The Adequan can’t hurt. I have heard that the kidney support supplements don’t really help so much (I am suspicious of anything with “gold” on the label). Do you have any recent labs you can enter into the LABS tab of your spreadsheet? Early CKD needs primarily hydration, best in the form of low carb wet food high in protein. If her appetite is ok and her phosphorus is within a normal range, you don’t need to supplement anything.
 
Wendy&Neko said:
Post on Neuropathy Feline Diabetic Neuropathy
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Hi Wendy don't mean to bother you again, but she wanted to know if you can answer this
Ryan"s kitty Marie has been getting adequan injections monthly for 8 months, and see's no improvement. Her vet did not do x-rays just said it was arthritis by looking at her walked
Her question is should she continue with the adequan? Maybe it's not arthritis, How do they diagnose it ! Is it x-rays?
What do you think? Don't know if you can give your opinion on this
@Wendy&Neko
 
I never gave Adequan, it is not available in Canada. Neko never had xrays for her arthritis, vet could feel it. So could I. :( This is a question for the vet, we are not vets.
 
Katherine&Ruby said:
The Adequan can’t hurt. I have heard that the kidney support supplements don’t really help so much (I am suspicious of anything with “gold” on the label). Do you have any recent labs you can enter into the LABS tab of your spreadsheet? Early CKD needs primarily hydration, best in the form of low carb wet food high in protein. If her appetite is ok and her phosphorus is within a normal range, you don’t need to supplement anything.
Click to expand...
That is great to know! I had read good things but was also a little hesitant. I do have her labs and will be adding them. Her phosphorous was slightly high and the last day or so she hasn't been eating nearly as much. But she seems to feel fine. I wonder if maybe the lower BG is giving her less appetite? I'm just worrying about her.
 
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