Black zone

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Shelley7

Member Since 2022
Hi! I started checking sugars and doing insulin on 9/27 and besides one evening where they decreased a little, there hasn’t seemed to be much response to insulin yet. One night was a fur shot so that may have been a no insulin night. This morning his sugar was 510 which was the highest it’s been. He is on prednisone (weaning) and received it later than usual yesterday. I usually give it at dinner time but forgot so he got it at 10 pm. Could that be the reason the amps is so high? Is there anything I need to do differently for levels above 500? I did check ketones and it’s negative.
 
Definitely possible, though consider meter variance it's not too far off.

Can you start posting on Lantus forum now? Lot more eyes over there. Looks to me like you'll want to consider an increase soon, but need more nighttime tests (at least a +2 or +3 each night)
 
Definitely possible, though consider meter variance it's not too far off.

Can you start posting on Lantus forum now? Lot more eyes over there. Looks to me like you'll want to consider an increase soon, but need more nighttime tests (at least a +2 or +3 each night)
Ok, will do. Thanks!
 
Definitely possible, though consider meter variance it's not too far off.

Can you start posting on Lantus forum now? Lot more eyes over there. Looks to me like you'll want to consider an increase soon, but need more nighttime tests (at least a +2 or +3 each night)
Hi again! I was wondering why it’s important to have a +2 or +3 in the night readings. Wouldn’t the +6 be more important to see how low it goes?
 
Hi again! I was wondering why it’s important to have a +2 or +3 in the night readings. Wouldn’t the +6 be more important to see how low it goes?
The +2 or +3 we call a "before bed" test. We use it as a gauge for if we can sleep through the night, or if we need to set an alarm, and for when.

What you did on the 27th and 28th was actually exactly what I mean - that at AM cycle + huge drop on 27th was the clue she was going away down and to keep testing. Active cycles usually follow flat ones. Then on the 28th it was a drop but not a big one, so just one spot check middle of the night was good. It takes a little bit of learning the cats trends, though some (like mine) arent predictable enough.

I'll never complain about a +5 ish any cycle! You actually want to test a bit before what you think nadir is (remember it can change time) so you have time to intervene if needed
 
The +2 or +3 we call a "before bed" test. We use it as a gauge for if we can sleep through the night, or if we need to set an alarm, and for when.

What you did on the 27th and 28th was actually exactly what I mean - that at AM cycle + huge drop on 27th was the clue she was going away down and to keep testing. Active cycles usually follow flat ones. Then on the 28th it was a drop but not a big one, so just one spot check middle of the night was good. It takes a little bit of learning the cats trends, though some (like mine) arent predictable enough.

I'll never complain about a +5 ish any cycle! You actually want to test a bit before what you think nadir is (remember it can change time) so you have time to intervene if needed
Ok, I see. But I don’t totally understand when you choose to set your alarm for further testing. Like the 27th the drop wasn’t very much so I probably wouldn’t check a +5 now but the 28th the drop was way more than the 27th but you said that was the night that only one extra check would have been ok. I totally get if the +2 is heading towards hypo or already in a worrisome level but when it’s in the 200-300 range (but less than PMPS) when do you need more info? Thanks!
 
Ok, I see. But I don’t totally understand when you choose to set your alarm for further testing. Like the 27th the drop wasn’t very much so I probably wouldn’t check a +5 now but the 28th the drop was way more than the 27th but you said that was the night that only one extra check would have been ok. I totally get if the +2 is heading towards hypo or already in a worrisome level but when it’s in the 200-300 range (but less than PMPS) when do you need more info? Thanks!
That's what I meant about learning his trends. If you post in the Lantus forum there will be a lot of people to help guide you, pretty much any time day or night. It depends on the numbers and drops you're seeing.

As very rough guidelines at these numbers, if flat probably good to go to bed. If a drop of about 15%, probably best to set an alarm about 30-60 mins before nadir (which appears to be around +6 or +7) just as a spot check. If a big drop, it unfortunately really depends. It may be the next hour, it may be in 2 hours.

It's a little unlikely she'd get low enough for a reduction BUT we just don't know right now. If she's seeing blues, especially low blues, we hold a dose for a little longer. Whereas if she is only seeing pink and higher, we can increase a little more quickly sometimes

It's a little rough in the beginning because you're learning how to keep her safe but also maximize sleep ha
 
That's what I meant about learning his trends. If you post in the Lantus forum there will be a lot of people to help guide you, pretty much any time day or night. It depends on the numbers and drops you're seeing.

As very rough guidelines at these numbers, if flat probably good to go to bed. If a drop of about 15%, probably best to set an alarm about 30-60 mins before nadir (which appears to be around +6 or +7) just as a spot check. If a big drop, it unfortunately really depends. It may be the next hour, it may be in 2 hours.

It's a little unlikely she'd get low enough for a reduction BUT we just don't know right now. If she's seeing blues, especially low blues, we hold a dose for a little longer. Whereas if she is only seeing pink and higher, we can increase a little more quickly sometimes

It's a little rough in the beginning because you're learning how to keep her safe but also maximize sleep ha
Thanks for those guidelines. I have to say the sleep disruption is the hardest part of this. I’m making mistakes, forgetting stuff, can’t keep things straight and just overall do horrible if I can’t sleep. I’m praying it gets better over time.
 
A little reading , here is the link for the 2 dosing methods for lantus.
We choose which one we want to follow, they will tell you when you need to increase or decrease the dose. When you decide you add it to your signature so members know
https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/thr...-low-go-slow-slgs-tight-regulation-tr.210110/
I’ve read that page like 20 times and still am not sure how to know which is best for him. What makes someone choose one over the other?
 
When you start to post on the lantus forum there is a certain way we post
Here is an EXAMPLE
2-1 Frankie AMPS- his BG and any other tests after the AMPS
So Example
2-1 Frankie AMPS-235/ 229 +3/ 190 +5 you can then add the PMPS BG and any tests after that

We do a new post every day and we also link the previous days post to the new day in case members need to go back to see it
 
I’ve read that page like 20 times and still am not sure how to know which is best for him. What makes someone choose one over the other?
Summary:
SLGS you reduce anytime under 90 (exception being back to back reductions, have to let depot drain first). But you hold the dose for a week, then do a curve. Technically the required tests are only the preshots, and the curve once a week. Based on the curve you can decide to hold/increase/decrease. For some people, this works best for their schedule, sleep, health, etc. The downside is you end up holding doses fairly long, so some glucose toxicity can set in and/or it takes longer to get regulated. Lower chances of remission.

TR you reduce under 50, also must be completely low carb wet diet. 4 tests minimum - the two preshots, plus one more test each cycle. Those extra tests should be strategic to get the whole picture over the course of a few days. Increases can be done every 3-5 days depending on nadir. Benefits are better numbers more quickly, better chances at remission. Downside is the testing...those 4 are the minimum. As they get into lower number it can be more testing, less sleep. That same can be true of SLGS but it generally keeps them in the 90-150 range when regulated....TR allows them into much lower numbers, which is why the extra testing.

You can always start with one and change your mind later ..but we are stickers for the extra testing with TR simply because of the risk associated with it.

Example - look at my spreadsheet starting in April. I followed TR the whole time, but you can see that I had him very nicely regulated with fairly minimal testing (a la SLGS). Then ignore April til early July, because that was issues with his underlying conditions flaring up. Then in July, we hit the numbers TR is aiming for (50-100) and you can see aaallll the extra testing. Granted, he started medication for acromegaly (which significantly lowered his BG) so there was probably twice the testing there would have been with just regular TR.

Let me look through some spreadsheets and I'll take a few people here/link some posts
 
Ares is a pretty good example for TR - Ashleigh had a bit of a learning curve after switching to TR, but look at his numbers and how she's been testing the last two weeks, it's pretty typical of TR: https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/2-1-ares-amps-138-3-72-4-5-67-5-5-66-pmps-103.258706/

Henry is another example of a very tightly regulated cat: https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/02-01-henry-amps-99-3-5-72-pmps-103-3-5.258718/

Mikey is fairly typical of a cat on SLGS, they often don't settle nicely into a green/blue range: https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB...7-pmps-129-should-i-dose.258433/#post-2905519

Same with Furball: https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/02-01-furball-10-307-amps-346-pmps-334.258697/

And lastly, Susie (GA) is a pretty good example of SLGS altogether. Summer switched back and forth a few times as her situation allowed, but you can see the time it takes to get into good numbers and then the testing required: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...5JKlqQPx18tG3AT8XldaNLEZhJPXa8gz7ZZLb/pubhtml
 
Summary:
SLGS you reduce anytime under 90 (exception being back to back reductions, have to let depot drain first). But you hold the dose for a week, then do a curve. Technically the required tests are only the preshots, and the curve once a week. Based on the curve you can decide to hold/increase/decrease. For some people, this works best for their schedule, sleep, health, etc. The downside is you end up holding doses fairly long, so some glucose toxicity can set in and/or it takes longer to get regulated. Lower chances of remission.

TR you reduce under 50, also must be completely low carb wet diet. 4 tests minimum - the two preshots, plus one more test each cycle. Those extra tests should be strategic to get the whole picture over the course of a few days. Increases can be done every 3-5 days depending on nadir. Benefits are better numbers more quickly, better chances at remission. Downside is the testing...those 4 are the minimum. As they get into lower number it can be more testing, less sleep. That same can be true of SLGS but it generally keeps them in the 90-150 range when regulated....TR allows them into much lower numbers, which is why the extra testing.

You can always start with one and change your mind later ..but we are stickers for the extra testing with TR simply because of the risk associated with it.

Example - look at my spreadsheet starting in April. I followed TR the whole time, but you can see that I had him very nicely regulated with fairly minimal testing (a la SLGS). Then ignore April til early July, because that was issues with his underlying conditions flaring up. Then in July, we hit the numbers TR is aiming for (50-100) and you can see aaallll the extra testing. Granted, he started medication for acromegaly (which significantly lowered his BG) so there was probably twice the testing there would have been with just regular TR.

Let me look through some spreadsheets and I'll take a few people here/link some posts
Thank you so much! Very helpful!
 
Ares is a pretty good example for TR - Ashleigh had a bit of a learning curve after switching to TR, but look at his numbers and how she's been testing the last two weeks, it's pretty typical of TR: https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/2-1-ares-amps-138-3-72-4-5-67-5-5-66-pmps-103.258706/

Henry is another example of a very tightly regulated cat: https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/02-01-henry-amps-99-3-5-72-pmps-103-3-5.258718/

Mikey is fairly typical of a cat on SLGS, they often don't settle nicely into a green/blue range: https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB...7-pmps-129-should-i-dose.258433/#post-2905519

Same with Furball: https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/02-01-furball-10-307-amps-346-pmps-334.258697/

And lastly, Susie (GA) is a pretty good example of SLGS altogether. Summer switched back and forth a few times as her situation allowed, but you can see the time it takes to get into good numbers and then the testing required: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...5JKlqQPx18tG3AT8XldaNLEZhJPXa8gz7ZZLb/pubhtml
Thank you. It definitely helps to have these examples. Bummer that the SLGS cats run higher and don’t look as good number wise. I’m thinking for now I’ll do the SLGS method but may dial it up to TR once he’s completely off the steroids. There are just so many changes coming up that I’m worried if I’m too aggressive then I could get into a bad hypo situation once the pred falls away or budesonide stops or chlorambucil is added and he stops eating because it’s nauseating. Hoping the SLGS method will give him enough insulin to keep him out of acidosis danger zone without swinging to hypo until his gut meds are sorted. So many factors to consider.
 
Makes sense! It's never straightforward once you start adding all the other conditions/factors, so just do what you think is best for you and Frankie, and reevaluate every so often
 
Hi Shelley, I think sticking to SLGS for now is prudent. You are still learning the diabetes ropes and you have a lot going on with Frankie. Because Ruby is on pred, I do a modified TR, which basically means I often reduce the dose before she gets to 50 because she is too unpredictable and there are some days when nobody but a once a day cat sitter comes to test her. On the other hand, I want to respond to high numbers quickly by increasing sooner than every 7 days so I don’t do SLGS. My goal is to keep Ruby below 200 and above 55 as much as possible. I’ve been at this dance for a while now and I know Ruby really well. You will find your way once you settle on the right steroid that will keep Frankie feeling better.
 
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