Grasping at straws! Need help.

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Susan Shropshire

Member Since 2021
I have been back and forth with vets. When Leo was first diagnosed, it was because he had diarrhea that wouldn't go away. That was really his only symptom. They ran blood work and found his glucose was 425. That was the only test they did and put him on Vetsulin. He has NEVER been regulated other than a short time when a new Vet did a fructosamine and said it was in regulated ranges. His test since then show he is not being regulated. He has had pancreatitis back in July. He never lost weight, actually the opposite.

I changed vets back in April 2020 because I was being told his numbers in the 300s were fine and as long as we weren't seeing any clinical signs he was fine! UGH! They had changed him to Prozinc pretty early on at the previous vet. The next vet (starting in April 2020) was about the same. We only increase Prozinc to 3.5 over awhile because I kept fighting to raise it. You can see on Leo's spreadsheet what the #s were. This vet didn't even want me testing at home. He went strickly by clinical signs. I have multiple cats that all use the same litter box and drink the same water so I have NO IDEA how much is Leo's.

Then in July I had a cat that got pancreatitis. About a week or two later, Leo got sick and threw up one day and then a couple of days later, threw up again and then the next morning with a little blood in the vomit. He had been a little less active but not nearly as sick as the first cat with pancreatits. I took him to the vet and they ran in the house snap test and said it was positive for pancreatitis. They didn't send off blood work like they did with the first cat. (MY normal vet had gone on vacation so the vet with Leo was different that the one with my other cat). They just said since he was diabetic that was the issue. He had to stay in an emergency vet for 3 days getting fluids and antibiotics. He then came home and went back to his normal self. That was all they did with Leo. I again fought about the dosage and we got up to 4 units of prozinc and I fought to change the Lantus. Then my vet took a job in another state. This was in August. That is when I found this forum.

I continued to increase the Lantus and got up to 5 units. The numbers are still way too high. I had to choose a new vet and I went back to the original clinic but a different DR. He said that we switched from Vetsulin to Prozinc too soon and he has seen good success with Vetsulin. He wanted to start there. We have increased a unit after every 5 days and are now at 5 units and are finally seeing upper 200's. I have seen a more steady reading, however, still way too high.

He also did an ultrasound on Leo and said they saw a mass on his pancreas, but that was all the info he had. It's a 2cm x 2cm mass. He wants to redo the ultrasound in a month (2 more weeks from now) to see if it's larger, smaller or he said it could possibly be gone. Could be an abscess, benign tumor or cancer. He doesn't really want to do anything to treat it such as surgery etc. I don't have a lot of confidence in the Ultrasound person. It's someone that also does human ultrasounds and I had a previous cat with a heart condition and 2 masses in her lung that we could see on the x-rays but she couldn't find the masses in the ultrasound???

I am now at my wits end. Leo seems fine. He eats really well, plays and overall seems like his normal self. Sometimes he doesn't want to be pet but he's always been a little picky about that. He weights 12.8 pounds and has held or gained weight over this year.

Has anyone had a case where they were misdiagnosed? Could the insulin I am giving him be causing his numbers to increase? Is there a thing of resetting and going a couple of days without insulin to see what his numbers are without anything? His numbers now aren't terribly lower than his original vet numbers at diagnosis.

I am in the process of still looking for a new vet but we really don't have many options in our area. I want what is best for Leo but all these shots and blood test seem they are for nothing.

Can you get Lantus and/or Prozinc anywhere without a vet? I can renew his Lantus prescription with refills but do not have a way to get Prozinc.
 
Can tag a few members for you to look at your SS
Question was he on Prozinc before you started Lantus, doesn't say it

Please see on her SS she was increasing by full and half units
Also he is on Vetsulin again, previously (Vetsulin, Prozinc, Lantus)

@Wendy&Neko

@JanetNJ

@Sienne and Gabby (GA)

@Chris & China (GA)

@tiffmaxee

Thanks ladies

If you look at this link she tells you about all the different insulin switches and when
https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB...ed-usually-over-300-at-4-units-lantus.253099/
 
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Vetsulin is not a great insulin for cats. Neko was first on Caninsulin, which was rebranded in the US to Vetsulin cause otherwise it sounds too much like dog insulin. Which it is! The latest guidelines recommend Lantus or Prozinc for cats: AAHA 2018 Guidelines for Managing Diabetes though it also mentions Levemir, another good insulin for cats.

Leo was just starting to respond to Lantus when he was unfortunately switched back to Vetsulin. My understanding is that you need a prescription for insulin in the US. I am in Canada where I do not. Sometimes you can find insulin on our Supply Closet forum. I would stick to Lantus for now, though might consider Levemir if he gets any higher in dose. Sometimes the acid base of Lantus can sting at higher doses. Levemir has a similar action to Lantus, but onset and nadir tend to be a couple hours later.

What food is Leo eating now? I see a reference to starting grain free food. Food can make a big difference if what he's eating is high carb.

Has anyone had a case where they were misdiagnosed? Could the insulin I am giving him be causing his numbers to increase? Is there a thing of resetting and going a couple of days without insulin to see what his numbers are without anything? His numbers now aren't terribly lower than his original vet numbers at diagnosis.
Leo's spreadsheet does not say misdiagnosed to me. It says "the dose is still too low". The insulin is not causing his numbers to increase, though he is doing some bouncing. You did see that 94 on 9/30, which showed promise. Please do not reset. A cat needs however much insulin they need, and Leo needs more. I have seen resets cause problems where the cat goes DKA. A cat's numbers will not necessarily improve the way you expect with insulin dose increases. Insulin is a hormone, not a drug. It's not like you add a bit more and see a bit more improvement.
 
Vetsulin is not a great insulin for cats. Neko was first on Caninsulin, which was rebranded in the US to Vetsulin cause otherwise it sounds too much like dog insulin. Which it is! The latest guidelines recommend Lantus or Prozinc for cats: AAHA 2018 Guidelines for Managing Diabetes though it also mentions Levemir, another good insulin for cats.

Leo was just starting to respond to Lantus when he was unfortunately switched back to Vetsulin. My understanding is that you need a prescription for insulin in the US. I am in Canada where I do not. Sometimes you can find insulin on our Supply Closet forum. I would stick to Lantus for now, though might consider Levemir if he gets any higher in dose. Sometimes the acid base of Lantus can sting at higher doses. Levemir has a similar action to Lantus, but onset and nadir tend to be a couple hours later.

What food is Leo eating now? I see a reference to starting grain free food. Food can make a big difference if what he's eating is high carb.


Leo's spreadsheet does not say misdiagnosed to me. It says "the dose is still too low". The insulin is not causing his numbers to increase, though he is doing some bouncing. You did see that 94 on 9/30, which showed promise. Please do not reset. A cat needs however much insulin they need, and Leo needs more. I have seen resets cause problems where the cat goes DKA. A cat's numbers will not necessarily improve the way you expect with insulin dose increases. Insulin is a hormone, not a drug. It's not like you add a bit more and see a bit more improvement.
Thank you.
He is on low-carb wet food. I had been going between 2 different flavors. I started to notice a "possible" correlation when I gave him the grain-free one versus the organic one. I don't know if it really is making a difference but I sometimes know with people, grains can make a difference. I called Purina and got the exact on both and they are both under 1% in carbs. One is 10% protein and is 7% protein and the difference is lanoeic acid & some calcium. I am doing an experiment with a grain free food but his #s actually went down yesterday and then up today so who knows!
I agree about the Vetsulin. When I started to that new vet that is what he wanted to do so I went with him and at first I thought maybe it was a good idea but now we are up to 5 units and other than yesterday we are where we were on 5 units of Lantus. I have decided to go to the other vet. I had been trying to decide between two.

Should I go back to the 5 units of Lantus or start lower or higher??? The last couple of days on Lantus we were having some high swings from the 200's into the 400's. So I don't know what all that was about??
 
I was disappointed when you switched back to Vetsulin. I don’t think you gave lantus enough time.
I wish I hadn't listened to that vet. He said he really thought that would be the best so I went with him. We are now at 5 units and just started seeing the upper 200's. I am confused about those last couple of days on Lantus where it was going lower and then up into the 400s. That is what worried me and so I went with what he was telling me.
 
I agree about the Vetsulin. When I started to that new vet that is what he wanted to do so I went with him and at first I thought maybe it was a good idea but now we are up to 5 units and other than yesterday we are where we were on 5 units of Lantus. I have decided to go to the other vet. I had been trying to decide between two.

Should I go back to the 5 units of Lantus or start lower or higher??? The last couple of days on Lantus we were having some high swings from the 200's into the 400's. So I don't know what all that was about??

@tiffmaxee

@Wendy&Neko
 
I remember when you were here. What you were seeing is to be expected until cats get used to better bg numbers. We call that bouncing. If you want to try lantus again we will help you. Have you had a chance to look at the stickies at the top of the lantus forum? There’s way too much information for anyone to absorb but if you look at the one that explains how it works and the one that shows an active cycle that’s a good place to start. Eventually most cats who are tightly controlled have pretty flat cycles but it takes time to get there.
 
I remember when you were here. What you were seeing is to be expected until cats get used to better bg numbers. We call that bouncing. If you want to try lantus again we will help you. Have you had a chance to look at the stickies at the top of the lantus forum? There’s way too much information for anyone to absorb but if you look at the one that explains how it works and the one that shows an active cycle that’s a good place to start. Eventually most cats who are tightly controlled have pretty flat cycles but it takes time to get there.
Thank you! I plan on going back to Lantus starting Sunday. I will pick up a new bottle tomorrow. I was as 5 units. Should I start there again or higher?
 
Susan -

Exactly what food are you giving Leo? To the best of my recollection, none of the Purina foods are 1% carb (but that's relying on my memory and they have some new varieties like the organics).

A couple of other thoughts...
I would be very hesitant to increase Vetsulin in 1.0u increments. It is far too harsh of an insulin to be increased in such a large amount. In addition, please get more PM tests. You need to be routinely getting at least one test each cycle. We encourage a "before bed" test every night so you're not worrying if your cat is in safe numbers.

I would make sure that the ultrasound is being done by a specialist. There are vets to travel from clinic to clinic who are specifically trained in ultrasound. This is similar to having a radiologist reading a human's ultrasound. Not every vet can read the nuances of an US.

I'm glad to hear you're switching back to Lantus. Please give it sufficient time to work. I can appreciate your frustration. The vets don't seem aware of the recommended insulins for treating FD and the shifts to different insulin is unlikely to to be a panacea.
 
Susan -

Exactly what food are you giving Leo? To the best of my recollection, none of the Purina foods are 1% carb (but that's relying on my memory and they have some new varieties like the organics).

A couple of other thoughts...
I would be very hesitant to increase Vetsulin in 1.0u increments. It is far too harsh of an insulin to be increased in such a large amount. In addition, please get more PM tests. You need to be routinely getting at least one test each cycle. We encourage a "before bed" test every night so you're not worrying if your cat is in safe numbers.

I would make sure that the ultrasound is being done by a specialist. There are vets to travel from clinic to clinic who are specifically trained in ultrasound. This is similar to having a radiologist reading a human's ultrasound. Not every vet can read the nuances of an US.

I'm glad to hear you're switching back to Lantus. Please give it sufficient time to work. I can appreciate your frustration. The vets don't seem aware of the recommended insulins for treating FD and the shifts to different insulin is unlikely to to be a panacea.
He eats Purina Beyond Organic Chicken & Carrot and Purina told me it is .90% Carbs https://www.chewy.com/purina-beyond-high-protein-organic/dp/279316
& he also eats Purina Beyond Grain-Free Wild Salmon and Purina told me it is .50% carbs https://www.chewy.com/purina-beyond-grain-free-wild-salmon/dp/139385

I don't feed him as much of the Salmon because some ingredients are iffy on his allergies. It contains Liver and they said it could be pork liver and it contains fish broth and that can be made from all kinds of fish. I just switch it in maybe every other day so he has some variety. He really likes it better than the chicken.

I had suspected but don't really know since he doesn't eat the salmon one exclusively but it I wonder if they grains were causing a little issue. Even though the carb % are really close, some people have issues with grains so I didn't know if he might.

I switched back to Lantus this morning. I still have the bottle from before and it was just purchased on 7/27. I have called in a refill though and will start a new bottle tonight.

Some said I was seeing "bounces" there at the end with Lantus. Where I was getting into the 200's and one time at 94 and then up into the 400's. How long does that normally last? His blood sugar was 415 this morning! I gave him the 5 units of Vetsulin last night so I had started to see those swings at the higher dose of Vetsulin too. The vet had mentioned that he liked that we were seeing steady numbers and not highs & lows. I agree that most vets really don't understand cats with diabetes.

For the PM #s. What would be the best time frame with Lantus? I read to do a curve you really needed +3 +6 & +9. Would those be good times to do the checks? So maybe one night rotating around those time frames? I usually get an AM & PM before shot # unless I just did it at +10 or +11. I try to give his little ears a rest from time to time if I can.

I am also finishing up on my test strips for the Alpha Trak2 meter and want to switch over to the ReliOn. What is the best way to do that? Should I just switch and note on the spreasheet the day I start the new meter? Should I wait until I have done the Lantus again for a couple of days?? Should I do both for a couple of cycles so I have #s to compare with the previous cycles on the last dose?

I am so thankful for this group. I have now seen 4 different vets since his diagnosis 2 years ago and they all say the same things. They really seem to just be guessing.
 
First off, feeding as low a carb as possible is not always best. Many cats do better with carbs in the slightly higher range of LC (up 10 10% carbs). Post here on it: Feeding Lowest/Zero Carb vs Lower Carb Foods As long as you have a food that works for his allergies and is under 10%, that would work. Something with a slightly higher carb %, but still low carb, might actually slow down steep drops. Steep drops can also cause bounces. Bounces can take up to six cycles to resolve. Here is the definition:
Bouncing - Bouncing is simply a natural reaction to what the cat's system perceives as a BG value that is "too low". "Too low" is relative. If a cat is used to BGs in the 200's, 300's, or higher for a long time, then even a BG that drops to 150 can trigger a "bounce". Bouncing can also be triggered if the blood glucose drops too low and/or too fast.The pancreas, then the liver, release glucogon, glycogen and counter-regulatory hormones. The end result is a dumping of "sugar" into the bloodstream to save the cat from going hypoglycemic from a perceived low. The action is often referred to as "liver panic" or "panicky liver". *Usually*, a bounce will clear kitty's system within 3 days (6 cycles).

As hard as those high numbers are to see, and I saw much worse!, it helped me to think of those bounces as the result of the insulin finally working to take Neko's numbers into something close to normal blood sugar numbers. It's only by finally seeing those normal blood sugar numbers, and getting used to seeing them, than they'll slow down the amount they bounce.

You don't need to do a curve or tests all the time at +3, +6 and +9. Use the +2 or +3 test to tell you if you need to test later. If you see a big from from preshot to +2 (or +3), then you do want later tests. If it's about the same it'll be a normal Lantus cycle with some curve downwards. If it's higher, go to bed.

I am also finishing up on my test strips for the Alpha Trak2 meter and want to switch over to the ReliOn. What is the best way to do that?
Just make the switch. I'll tag @Bandit's Mom who can help you make the change to the spreadsheet when you switch.
 
I can help with making the formatting changes to your spreadsheet to accommodate the meter change. Just message or tag me when you switch meters and I'll do it for you. :-)
 
Since you are switching back to Lantus, please make sure you review the sticky notes at the top of the Lantus board. Most importantly, you will need to decide if you want to follow Tight Regulation or Start Low Go Slow.
 
Since you are switching back to Lantus, please make sure you review the sticky notes at the top of the Lantus board. Most importantly, you will need to decide if you want to follow Tight Regulation or Start Low Go Slow.
I definitely want to do the tight regulation. I am ready to get him to the number he needs to be at and have been doing the slow route for way too long.
 
I can help with making the formatting changes to your spreadsheet to accommodate the meter change. Just message or tag me when you switch meters and I'll do it for you. :)
Thank you. I still have some test strips I am using up but as soon as these run out I will change over. Most likely it will be in just a week if not shorter due to more testing with the change.
 
I would strongly encourage you to post on the Lantus board. Some of the experienced Lantus uses will check the Health board but they mostly hang out on the Lantus Insulin Support Group.
 
First off, feeding as low a carb as possible is not always best. Many cats do better with carbs in the slightly higher range of LC (up 10 10% carbs). Post here on it: Feeding Lowest/Zero Carb vs Lower Carb Foods As long as you have a food that works for his allergies and is under 10%, that would work. Something with a slightly higher carb %, but still low carb, might actually slow down steep drops. Steep drops can also cause bounces. Bounces can take up to six cycles to resolve. Here is the definition:
Bouncing - Bouncing is simply a natural reaction to what the cat's system perceives as a BG value that is "too low". "Too low" is relative. If a cat is used to BGs in the 200's, 300's, or higher for a long time, then even a BG that drops to 150 can trigger a "bounce". Bouncing can also be triggered if the blood glucose drops too low and/or too fast.The pancreas, then the liver, release glucogon, glycogen and counter-regulatory hormones. The end result is a dumping of "sugar" into the bloodstream to save the cat from going hypoglycemic from a perceived low. The action is often referred to as "liver panic" or "panicky liver". *Usually*, a bounce will clear kitty's system within 3 days (6 cycles).

As hard as those high numbers are to see, and I saw much worse!, it helped me to think of those bounces as the result of the insulin finally working to take Neko's numbers into something close to normal blood sugar numbers. It's only by finally seeing those normal blood sugar numbers, and getting used to seeing them, than they'll slow down the amount they bounce.

You don't need to do a curve or tests all the time at +3, +6 and +9. Use the +2 or +3 test to tell you if you need to test later. If you see a big from from preshot to +2 (or +3), then you do want later tests. If it's about the same it'll be a normal Lantus cycle with some curve downwards. If it's higher, go to bed.


Just make the switch. I'll tag @Bandit's Mom who can help you make the change to the spreadsheet when you switch.
Thank you so much! I did notice today that it was 415 AMPS and dropped to 378 by +3 and then I just tested at +6 and its 323. I picked up the new bottle of Lantus today so I will start with a fresh bottle tonight. How long does a bottle usually last in the fridge?

With it taking 3 days or so to stop the bounces, I was almost there when the vet had me switch back to Vetsulin... UGH!

I do have 2 cans of Tiki Cat Rabbit & Chicken Liver. Tiki Cat says that is 2.25% carbs & there is a Sheba perfect portion he can do that is 3% carbs. I might can mix those in for his mid-day meal. I saw the lowest numbers around +4 to +6 during the day. He gets his AM shot around 8:30am and eats. +4 would be around noon. So I could give him a little around then and see if that helps.
 
I picked up the new bottle of Lantus today so I will start with a fresh bottle tonight. How long does a bottle usually last in the fridge?
The answer to questions about Lantus are in this Sticky Note: Insulin Care & Syringe Info: Proper Handling, Drawing, Fine Dosing
I saw the lowest numbers around +4 to +6 during the day. He gets his AM shot around 8:30am and eats. +4 would be around noon. So I could give him a little around then and see if that helps.
What you should try to pinpoint is his onset, or what time the insulin starts to work to drop numbers in him. For many kitties on Lantus that's the +2-+3 time frame. Give him a small meal then. The fresh carbs on board can help slow the fast drops.
 
First off, feeding as low a carb as possible is not always best. Many cats do better with carbs in the slightly higher range of LC (up 10 10% carbs). Post here on it: Feeding Lowest/Zero Carb vs Lower Carb Foods As long as you have a food that works for his allergies and is under 10%, that would work. Something with a slightly higher carb %, but still low carb, might actually slow down steep drops. Steep drops can also cause bounces. Bounces can take up to six cycles to resolve. Here is the definition:
Bouncing - Bouncing is simply a natural reaction to what the cat's system perceives as a BG value that is "too low". "Too low" is relative. If a cat is used to BGs in the 200's, 300's, or higher for a long time, then even a BG that drops to 150 can trigger a "bounce". Bouncing can also be triggered if the blood glucose drops too low and/or too fast.The pancreas, then the liver, release glucogon, glycogen and counter-regulatory hormones. The end result is a dumping of "sugar" into the bloodstream to save the cat from going hypoglycemic from a perceived low. The action is often referred to as "liver panic" or "panicky liver". *Usually*, a bounce will clear kitty's system within 3 days (6 cycles).

As hard as those high numbers are to see, and I saw much worse!, it helped me to think of those bounces as the result of the insulin finally working to take Neko's numbers into something close to normal blood sugar numbers. It's only by finally seeing those normal blood sugar numbers, and getting used to seeing them, than they'll slow down the amount they bounce.

You don't need to do a curve or tests all the time at +3, +6 and +9. Use the +2 or +3 test to tell you if you need to test later. If you see a big from from preshot to +2 (or +3), then you do want later tests. If it's about the same it'll be a normal Lantus cycle with some curve downwards. If it's higher, go to bed.


Just make the switch. I'll tag @Bandit's Mom who can help you make the change to the spreadsheet when you switch.
I am really at a loss again. As you can see in his spreadsheet we are all over the place with his numbers. Are those high numbers possibly bounces? If not, I was getting a much better response when he was on Vetsulin. The numbers were the same with some 200s and 300s and we didn't have those high spikes. I believe if we increased the vetsulin dose the numbers would have come down. I am really close to just stopping everything. His numbers when he was diagnosed are the same as they are now and that was without all the food changing and insulin injections. It doesn't seem anything we are doing is making a difference.
 
First of all, bounces are extremely common in cats, and frustrating for their caregivers. :bighug: Some cats bounce when they see low yellows if they aren't used to them, and it looks like Leo hasn't seen anything as low as that 234 for a while.

High and flat numbers are not better than seeing the range of numbers and bounces. The bounces at least tell you the Lantus is getting him lower than he's used to. Our goal is to get him even lower, down into mostly below 200. At his size of dose, and if you have to increase again, I would increase by 0.5 units at a time.

And finally, what you are probably seeing right now is a phenomenon we affectionately call "New Dose Wonkiness" or NDW. It's a temporary condition of higher numbers seen after an increase. More information about it in this post.
 
First of all, bounces are extremely common in cats, and frustrating for their caregivers. :bighug: Some cats bounce when they see low yellows if they aren't used to them, and it looks like Leo hasn't seen anything as low as that 234 for a while.

High and flat numbers are not better than seeing the range of numbers and bounces. The bounces at least tell you the Lantus is getting him lower than he's used to. Our goal is to get him even lower, down into mostly below 200. At his size of dose, and if you have to increase again, I would increase by 0.5 units at a time.

And finally, what you are probably seeing right now is a phenomenon we affectionately call "New Dose Wonkiness" or NDW. It's a temporary condition of higher numbers seen after an increase. More information about it in this post.

Thank you! It is so frustrating since we haven't really had any progress in the 2 1/2 years since his diagnosis. His numbers are the same now as they were at his diagnosis, and that was before the food change and the insulin injections. Dealing with vets telling me everything was fine when I knew it wasn't and it ending up with him getting pancreatitis! Then to start to a new vet that wants to put him back on Vetsulin and telling me the flat numbers were good. I am so confused and not sure what if anything will make a difference.

I was thinking I was only supposed to increase .25 units. Should I go to 5.5 starting tonight or hold at the 5.25. It's really hard getting .25 on a u100 syringe. He was on 5 units for 4 days and the numbers were still high and since he had been on 5 units of Lantus before with close to the same numbers, I thought it would be best to do an increase. I did the .25 increase starting yesterday and today is day 2. Should I hold the 5.25 for another day (I think its 3-5 days to hold right?) and then go to 5.50 or go to 5.75?

I really appreciate all your help. It's just beyond aggregating when I get all kinds of conflicting information and opinions and it's hard to tell if I am doing the right thing or not.
 
I think you'd be fine going to 5.5 units tonight. With SLGS, you increase every 7 days. If you want to switch to TR (and are on only low carb wet/raw), you could doing the amount of testing you do. That allows you to increase sooner and get to a better dose faster. There is definitely something to be said for being on the line!
 
I think you'd be fine going to 5.5 units tonight. With SLGS, you increase every 7 days. If you want to switch to TR (and are on only low carb wet/raw), you could doing the amount of testing you do. That allows you to increase sooner and get to a better dose faster. There is definitely something to be said for being on the line!
Great! I’m good with testing so I would rather get to his number faster. I’ll up it to 5.5 tonight and see how we do. So with TR I wait 3-5 days and then adjust based on what numbers I’m seeing, correct?
 
Yes on the TR, with nothing lower than yellows you increase every 6 cycles. Once you start seeing lower numbers, you slow down the increases.
Today is actually over the 6 cycles but I waited since I saw lower numbers. Today is actually day 5 at the same dose. I thought I might need to let it catch up so maybe the bounces would stop. Should I increase by .5 units? He is at 5.5 now, should I go to 6 units?
I am still seeing those spikes into the 400s. Is that still his body reacting to these lower numbers? I didn't know if it would take this long for it to work itself out. I am starting to at least see some blues sprinkled in.
 
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