Question about possible brain cancer

Should I get Moose a brain scan & pursue radiation treatment?

  • Yes

  • No


Results are only viewable after voting.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Moose (GA) & Rae

Active Member
I posted not too long ago about good advice for my underweight kitty. Thank you for all of your advice. I was able to find a food that was low carb, low phos, & doesn’t make him vomit or have diarrhea.

Unfortunately it did not help him gain weight. I just took him back to the vet (I take him every six months for a senior exam.) He lost 2+ lbs since his last visit. He is only 5 lbs now. At his highest he was 24 lbs. His ideal weight per the vet (& the weight that I was able to successfully get him down to) was 14 lbs since he’s a bigger cat. So him being 5 lbs is unimaginable.

The vet called me almost immediately after my boyfriend dropped him off (still not allowed in the office due to COVID.) She explained that the weight loss, hair loss, muscle deterioration, & ravenous hunger was likely due to a type of brain cancer (I am not sure which one, I zoned out once she said “brain cancer.” I am going to call to get the name of the cancer tomorrow.)

She did not seem hopeful. She said that she would refer me to a specialist if I would like but it would take 6-8 weeks to get an appointment for a brain scan. & that radiation treatment would be expensive & it can take 3+ years for the tumor to shrink with treatment. She said he likely wasn’t in pain, but to anticipate that he will not be able to walk at some point due to the muscle wasting.

Should I make an appointment to see the specialist in 6-8 weeks to confirm? If so, does radiation make sense at this point? I did already ask my vet these questions, but again she did not advise it. I want to make sure I am doing everything I can. He has been wasting away for the past 2+ years and gone through numerous tests with no answers. I just don’t know what to do. :( Please help.
 
Last edited:
So sorry to hear about your kitty! Did they do any tests before deciding it was acromegaly? There is a test that can tell you if it’s acromegaly or not. And I could be wrong but I’m pretty sure that acromegaly is not the same thing as brain cancer. There are several acro cats on this board, most of them hang out in the Lantus forum. I will tag @Wendy&Neko for you who knows a lot about acromegaly
 
So sorry to hear about your kitty! Did they do any tests before deciding it was acromegaly? There is a test that can tell you if it’s acromegaly or not. And I could be wrong but I’m pretty sure that acromegaly is not the same thing as brain cancer. There are several acro cats on this board, most of them hang out in the Lantus forum. I will tag @Wendy&Neko for you who knows a lot about acromegaly
Thank you. I think I have the condition wrong then. I kind of zoned out once the vet said “brain cancer” and just tried to google what it could be called. The name was not on the paperwork that was sent home, I will update my post and call for clarification tomorrow.
 
I am so sorry you are having to deal with this.
Did the vet do any X-rays before she diagnosed brain cancer. Did she mention Cushings Disease?
How much food are you feeding Moose? Are you offering snacks throughout the day and evening. Have you tried Hills a/d recovery food?
https://www.hillspet.com.au/cat-food/pd-ad-canine-feline-canned
The vet did not do x-rays. I can ask them to do so. What would the expect to find via x-rays?

She did not mention Cushings Disease however his symptoms match all of them. I do remember her noting it was something with the pituitary gland. Maybe the drug therapy would be beneficial? He can’t go under anesthesia for removal though. He eats 200 calories a day, is that not enough for a 5 lb cat? I have tried to give him snacks throughout the day but even a little bit of extra food causes him immediate diarrhea (sometimes bloody.) So I keep to the 100 cals in the morning and 100 cats at night.
 
The vet did not do x-rays. I can ask them to do so. What would the expect to find via x-rays?
It there was a brain tumour, it might show up in an X-ray. Probably not if it was on the pituitary gland though.
Maybe the a/d might help as it is a recovery food……it might be worth a try and see if it causes diarrhoea.
Wendy may have some more suggestions about moving forward.
 
It there was a brain tumour, it might show up in an X-ray. Probably not if it was on the pituitary gland though.
Maybe the a/d might help as it is a recovery food……it might be worth a try and see if it causes diarrhoea.
Wendy may have some more suggestions about moving forward.
Aren’t the Hills prescription diets high in carbs though? Or am I thinking of a different type of prescription diet?

I imagine she would have suggested to just do an x-ray there, but she specifically referred to a specialist who could do a CT scan.

Thank you for your help.
 
Additional questions:

1) What does Moose’s poop look like (color, consistency, etc)

2) When is the last time a full thyroid panel was run? (Not just the T4, but the T3, Free T4, etc).

3) What is his activity level? Is he fidgety, overactive, sleeping less, etc?

4) what is the condition of his fur?

Cancer can indeed suck the weight off of them, but I’m not sure why she’s thinking brain cancer in particular.

Kidney issues can also cause significant weight loss, vomiting, etc, but they typically are nauseous and don’t eat well, which contributes to the weight loss and muscle atrophy. You don’t typically see ravenous hunger with that.

Hyperthyroidism can also cause ravenous hunger and significant weight loss. It’s not always evident in just the Total T4 value, although that’s where vets usually start and is a decent clue. A full thyroid panel can be run at Michigan State University (can send them a blood sample) if the symptoms fit with hyperthyroidism.

Finally, I asked about poop because of the possibility of both IBD/IBS (irritable bowel disease/syndrome) and, just as importantly, EPI (exocrine pancreatic insufficiency). EPI is considered rare in cats and the diagnosis can be missed, but it is very, very treatable with a specific digestive enzyme mixed in with the food. You can google it for symptoms, but a pale, fluffy, greasy stool is a clue. You can send blood to Texas A&M University (TAMU) to run a full GI panel, including fPLI, fTLI, folate, and cobalamin levels. Those tests can help diagnosis chronic pancreatitis, EPI, and also indicate whether Moose needs B-12 supplementation, etc.

That’s just a quick brain dump. Good for you for trying to get to the bottom of what’s going on. It’s so hard to watch them waste away (been there).
 
Additional questions:

1) What does Moose’s poop look like (color, consistency, etc)

2) When is the last time a full thyroid panel was run? (Not just the T4, but the T3, Free T4, etc).

3) What is his activity level? Is he fidgety, overactive, sleeping less, etc?

4) what is the condition of his fur?

Cancer can indeed suck the weight off of them, but I’m not sure why she’s thinking brain cancer in particular.

Kidney issues can also cause significant weight loss, vomiting, etc, but they typically are nauseous and don’t eat well, which contributes to the weight loss and muscle atrophy. You don’t typically see ravenous hunger with that.

Hyperthyroidism can also cause ravenous hunger and significant weight loss. It’s not always evident in just the Total T4 value, although that’s where vets usually start and is a decent clue. A full thyroid panel can be run at Michigan State University (can send them a blood sample) if the symptoms fit with hyperthyroidism.

Finally, I asked about poop because of the possibility of both IBD/IBS (irritable bowel disease/syndrome) and, just as importantly, EPI (exocrine pancreatic insufficiency). EPI is considered rare in cats and the diagnosis can be missed, but it is very, very treatable with a specific digestive enzyme mixed in with the food. You can google it for symptoms, but a pale, fluffy, greasy stool is a clue. You can send blood to Texas A&M University (TAMU) to run a full GI panel, including fPLI, fTLI, folate, and cobalamin levels. Those tests can help diagnosis chronic pancreatitis, EPI, and also indicate whether Moose needs B-12 supplementation, etc.

That’s just a quick brain dump. Good for you for trying to get to the bottom of what’s going on. It’s so hard to watch them waste away (been there).
His poop has been pretty normal, sometimes a bit pale colored but not fluffy. He does get diarrhea if I switch his food or feed him over his 6 oz of food a day (total 200 cals for the day.)

He had his last full thyroid label in February of this year. Everything was normal.

He sleeps most of the day but if there is even a hint of someone going into the kitchen to get food or it’s 3 hours before dinner time, he gets paces and cries.

He is losing fur rapidly. More every day. His dark gray fur has started to get lighter, almost a beige gray but that may just be from him getting older

He does have kidney diseases. Diagnosed with CKD 4 years ago. We check his BUN/Creatine every few months. That is why the vet was stumped, she said cats with CKD usually lose their appetite just like you said.

Ok so I can just ask the vet to send blood to the places you indicated?

They ruled out hypothyroidism but the test probably wasn’t as detailed as you mentioned.

thank you very much for the suggestions. I really appreciate it and will look into all of them. Anything to give him another year, if not more hopefully.
 
He does get diarrhea if I switch his food or feed him over his 6 oz of food a day (total 200 cals for the day.)
So the 6oz limit on food doesn’t sound normal. He obviously needs more calories, and yet you can’t get them into him without triggering diarrhea. Has he had any diagnostics such as imaging (X-ray, ultrasound, etc) or an endoscopy?

He sleeps most of the day but if there is even a hint of someone going into the kitchen to get food or it’s 3 hours before dinner time, he gets paces and cries.
Sadly it sounds like he’s hungry and is slowly starving to death. Yes there’s a reason for this, but it’s hard to know why. Sometimes it’s multiple issues, too, so it can be a bit of a puzzle to sort out. Sometimes the tests and diagnostics are invaluable in ruling things in/out.

I’d be cautious about changing foods if you’ve found something that sort of works, but if you can get as much food in him as possible without triggering other problems, I’d do it. Maybe bump up the amount of food incrementally or add an additional snack. My Charlie was a very complicated case and could only eat one one flavor of one brand of food without full-blown diarrhea, so I feel your pain. I had to add a bit of plain canned pumpkin as well to help “hold the fort,” so to speak. Others try slippery elm. He might also benefit from B-12 cyanocobalamin shots per the TAMU protocol given the GI issues, though I would run the GI panel if possible.

He is losing fur rapidly. More every day. His dark gray fur has started to get lighter, almost a beige gray but that may just be from him getting older
Might be additional clues, or not. All important to bring up with the vet and/or specialist.

Ok so I can just ask the vet to send blood to the places you indicated?
Yes, my general vet pulled the blood and submitted samples to the various universities for the tests.

It’s been awhile so I don’t know if any of the national labs offer some of the testing now — those were the “go to’s” when we were digging for answers.

I believe you mentioned that Cushings was on the list of possibilities? University of Tennessee offers an adrenal panel which is also via blood submission [edited to add: test for Cushings is more complicated than just a simple blood draw. For example, it might be an ACTH stim test.] Do you see skin tears and paper-thin skin?

I really appreciate it and will look into all of them. Anything to give him another year, if not more hopefully.
Another possibility, if you have a vet school nearby, is to schedule an appointment with an Internal Medicine specialist at a vet teaching hospital and see if they can help you get some answers. Depending on the school, they usually have the ability to do internal consultations with the other specialties as well as guide a lot of the diagnostics. Knowledge is power, and I always find it easier to make decisions—even tough ones— if I have as much data as possible.
 
Last edited:
Acromegaly and Cushings, are caused by what are typically benign tumours on the pituitary gland. The type/shape of the tumours causing the two diseases is different. The pituitary is part of the brain, so yes it's considered a brain tumour, but not brain cancer. For both conditions, a pot belly is common. With acromegaly, the tumour causes an output of excess growth hormone, so these cats typically gain weight. Both JL and I have had cats have radiation therapy (called stereotactic radiation therapy or SRT) which targets these tiny tumours. Michigan State University is also where the blood is sent for acromegaly testing.

Skin tears and paper thin skin tend to be later stage symptoms for Cushings, you might not see them yet. (or ever). An internal medicine vet can help you with testing for that. Cushings is more complicated, there are three types of it. The most common is caused by a pituitary tumour, but it can also be caused by an adrenal tumour or a reaction to too much steroids.

I agree with JL that the symptoms do sound like some investigation should be done of his GI system as it sounds like he's not processing food properly.
 
So the 6oz limit on food doesn’t sound normal. He obviously needs more calories, and yet you can’t get them into him without triggering diarrhea. Has he had any diagnostics such as imaging (X-ray, ultrasound, etc) or an endoscopy?

He has not, I am surprised they did not do any imaging. I can certainly request it. Which is best to start with, x-ray? & yes he definitely starving to death :( He's always looking for more food right after he has eaten. The pumpkin is a great idea since that will help with the diarrhea. I am lucky now to work from home full time now due to COVID so that I can feed him multiple meals (if again he can tolerate them.) It makes it even more difficult that he doesn't poop in the litter box. We ended up having to tear out the carpet in the basement. & yes I have tried everything under the sun to get him to go in the litter box. He does sometimes. I believe it's because our other cat may try to bother him/play with him when he's in the litter box.

Yes, my general vet pulled the blood and submitted samples to the various universities for the tests.

Ok good to know, I will ask my vet about that.

Do you see skin tears and paper-thin skin?

Someone here mentioned Cushings and I looked it up and he does have every single symptom. He has long fur so I don't always notice the skin tears except in the areas were there is significant hair loss. I saw one 2 weeks ago and thought it was just from a scuffle with our other cat, but I just checked him this morning and there were several skin tears in the areas where he has lost fur. I can see his bones clearly through his skin, so I have to imagine that is considered paper-thing.
Below you can see bones, and in the right picture there is a skin tear that's scabbing.
1DlExPb
rgzvYml


1DlExPb.jpg
rgzvYml.jpg


Another possibility, if you have a vet school nearby, is to schedule an appointment with an Internal Medicine specialist at a vet teaching hospital

Ok great I will see if there is one nearby.
 
Both JL and I have had cats have radiation therapy (called stereotactic radiation therapy or SRT) which targets these tiny tumours. Michigan State University is also where the blood is sent for acromegaly testing.

Thank you for explaining the differences between the too conditions. Ok so it sounds like he would not have Acromegaly since he is losing weight rapidly and not gaining it. Has the radiation therapy worked well for your kitty? How long have you been doing it, how old was your kitty when you started it.?

Skin tears and paper thin skin tend to be later stage symptoms for Cushings, you might not see them yet. (or ever). An internal medicine vet can help you with testing for that. Cushings is more complicated, there are three types of it. The most common is caused by a pituitary tumour, but it can also be caused by an adrenal tumour or a reaction to too much steroids.

He has had paper-thin skin for at least the last 6 months - year. I thought it was just a part of getting old. (See pictures in my post above.) I have noticed skin tears before but assumed he got into a scuffle with our younger cat. I just checked today and found several more, and that's only in the areas where is has hair loss. I'll try to look at the rest of his body, he just has long fur so it makes it difficult.

I agree with JL that the symptoms do sound like some investigation should be done of his GI system as it sounds like he's not processing food properly.

Ok I will ask them for an x-ray and ultrasound. Thank you.
 
Also here are some other pics, I can't tell if he has a pot belly but he does have ear folding, which I noticed about 6 months ago. It doesn't look too bad today but sometimes both ears are folded back much further than the right ear in the pic.

62C7t9f.jpg
H8CkqyO.jpg
 
If these symptoms started after February of this year, I would really suggest rechecking his thyroid values as suggested above. All of the symptoms (including his coat and skin issues) seem consistent with hyperthyroid... which is treatable.
 
Sigh, this has just been a year :( My dog was diagnosed with osteosarcoma earlier this year, and had his leg amputated. Thankful that there were no tumors in his lungs as that is where they usually spread, we get x-rays every 2 months to check. Hopefully Moose will be as lucky.
 
I would talk to the vet about getting testing done for Cushings. If you aren't seeing an internal medicine vet already, you might want a referral to one. There are medications that can treat if it's pituitary based Cushings. It's not a condition general practice vets see much, my vet told me she's only seen one. An IM vet might have more experience.
Has the radiation therapy worked well for your kitty? How long have you been doing it, how old was your kitty when you started it.?
The radiation therapy was done twice, but that was unusual - my cat liked being different. :rolleyes: Typically SRT is done one time, over a series of 1-3 days and then you are done. Neko passed on almost 5 years ago, I still miss her. Anyway, the radiation therapy did help her have over 4 years after it of much better quality of life. Radiation therapy is not usually done for Cushings.
 
I would talk to the vet about getting testing done for Cushings.
I called early and made an appointment with an internal medicine place and have an appointment scheduled for 4 weeks from now.

Neko passed on almost 5 years ago, I still miss her. Anyway, the radiation therapy did help her have over 4 years after it of much better quality of life.

I'm so sorry for your loss :bighug: I am very happy that she was able to get another 4 years with better quality of life. She was 16 when she passed?
 
Just to be clear, Moose has not been on steroids, correct?

I’m glad you got an appointment with an IM vet. You might want to request they put you on a cancellation list in case you can get in sooner. Or check with a vet teaching hospital to see if they have any appointments available.
 
Just to be clear, Moose has not been on steroids, correct?

I’m glad you got an appointment with an IM vet. You might want to request they put you on a cancellation list in case you can get in sooner. Or check with a vet teaching hospital to see if they have any appointments available.
Correct, he has not been on steroids.

Ok I will call around, the vet said it would likely be 6-8 weeks before I could get an appointment with a specialist so I was surprised by 4 weeks. I will get up early tomorrow to try to make more calls before work if they're open.
 
I have a cat with EPI, not diabetic. He is 16, last year he was emaciated, always hungry, diarhea multiple times per day that was a yellowish pool of goo and would stink out the house (but not every EPI cat gets that symptom). I could not get him into the vet, so I looked up the symptoms and found EPI, and they matched his condition. We had nothing to lose so I started mixing bovine pancreatic enzymes into every meal and he has his own digital microchip bowl so only he eats from it. In about 3-4 days the diarhea began to form more solid stools without the stink, and within a couple of weeks he had normal poops. He began to gain weight too. He was never a cat to carry excess weight but he got insulation over his hip bones and his coat got glossier. I also inject cobalamin every 2-4 weeks. He also gets his occasional mouthful of slippery elm goop to soothe and coat his mouth and digestive tract, and prednisone every so often.
240818301_2714701915489307_5982743661026709433_n.jpg
 
My wife came home one day to find me crying next to our dog. A top rated oncologist told us Hannah would not make it to Christmas and we should prepare ourselves for the inevitable. 200 days later we stopped counting the days our miracle dog had survived, she never had cancer. Doctors seldom if ever admit a mistake and seem to enjoy scaring the crap out of us. "It could be brain cancer" is not an answer.
it can take 3+ years for the tumor to shrink with treatment
Moose is 16 years old. I've had cats that made it to 20 and even 23 but you'll have to ask yourself if this is worth putting Moose through this.
He has been wasting away for the past 2+ years
Noah had a long list of medical problems. I asked our vet one day how he could possibly still be here and she just didn't know. He was once our big yellow cat but when he lost just one gram a day over five years that was nearly half his normal body weight. That's a quality of life issue only you can decide.
What would the expect to find via x-rays?
You may have to step up to ultrasounds, a needle biopsy (sometimes inconclusive), a CT scan or even an MRI. Our MRI was four mortgage payments and full anesthesia but Moose cannot undergo anesthesia correct? That means no CT or MRI.
slowly starving to death
That may be a blunt statement but if it's true you can't ignore it. That's another quality of life question.
Do your have a copy of the labs you could post?
Leaving a vet's clinic scratching your head thinking "what just happened" has happened to all of us. They will tell you their conclusions but you leave without any paperwork or medical imaging. I've had four MRI's and have CD's of all of them that I can show to another neurologist anywhere five years from now. You're entitled to all these test results and can educate yourself as to what everything means. Don't take 'No' for an answer.
Please don't forget that money does not equal love. I have done whatever it took to help any animal and money was not an issue. I've also had the full guilt trip from vets and especially emergency clinics when I knew that wasn't the answer. It's a difficult topic to discuss.

If it helps hundreds of us have been where you are now. I've had a cat die in the back seat of a car but I've also had a cat fall from the third floor, broke his jaw when he got hit by a car and then lived a good life to the age of 23 with all his teeth. Little miracles happen all the time but you have to be realistic. You can also talk to Moose about this, cats are better communicators than we give them credit for.
Safe journey Moose. :bighug: :bighug: :bighug:
 
Last edited:
Our diabetic cat Cotton was starving and emaciated no matter what or how much he ate, always at the water bowl and peeing (before he was diagnosed with diabetes by ME who happened to do a glucose test at home when my vet diagnosed my other 16 yr old cat with diabetes when she wasn't -- which is another thread).
I mention this because uou show Moose as OTJ - but if he is starving (your baby is emaciated as you know) then maybe he should be getting more food that is regulated by being back on insulin, like slow acting lantus and SLGS method? Cotton used to vomit often too, now he only does that if he goes too long between small regular meals.
Below is a photo of Cotton today snoozing beside me. He runs from 8-14 blood glucose regularly, and went from a skeleton in December 2020 back to a slightly portly but happy contented fluffball.
Also if Moose gets diarrhea, consider finding out if he has EPI.
240877526_2714895318803300_7135542650599707566_n.jpg
 
maybe he should be getting more food
Our first diabetic cat was put on some unrealistic diet and feeding schedule. He was going downhill when out vet told us to free feed him, everything got better.
At this point I'd rather have a slightly portly cat than a sick one. You can deal with mildly obese later.
 
My point exactly.

Moose is emaciated, and otj - so I am wondering if he should be back on insulin so he can eat more. I'd rather a cat that is a bit overweight and otherwise healthy, than not on insulin, not eating enough, and a 1-2 on body condition scale. My heart goes out to Moose and his owner, and I am throwing putting him back on insulin as an option so he can eat more - provided he doesn't vomit it up. 200 calories is somewhere around 3 cans of fancy-feast a day, but if he is back to diabetic, perhaps his body can't absorb the calories without insulin again.
Or just more to eat if he can deal with it without insulin.
 
Moose is emaciated, and otj - so I am wondering if he should be back on insulin so he can eat more. …

… I am throwing putting him back on insulin as an option so he can eat more - provided he doesn't vomit it up.
I’m under the impression that it’s not about avoiding diabetes but rather about avoiding diarrhea. If more food triggers diarrhea, then it sort of defeats the purpose. It’s such a difficult situation. :(

From an earlier post from @Moose & Rae :
“I have tried to give him snacks throughout the day but even a little bit of extra food causes him immediate diarrhea (sometimes bloody.) So I keep to the 100 cals in the morning and 100 cats at night.”
 
I haven't kept up with every post. Is the diarrhea never ending, all his food just goes right through him no matter what? Dysentery is a human thing and an awful way to go, you basically poop out more than you eat and drink until there's nothing left. We need to know if it's constant, the color and especially if there's blood in it.
If he keeps losing weight he will reach a point where nothing else will matter. Have you tried feeding human grade chicken?
 
Dr. LIsa's chicken recipe is not hard to make, if Moose is able to eat chicken.
I feed it to my 6 cats, and make a batch every 10 days or so. The main ingredient is chicken thighs. Because I am unable to get chicken liver and my cats hate beef liver (a lower ratio must be used because the vitamin levels are higher), I do mix in a spoonful of canned fancy feast or friskies pates to each serving.
 
I should have said this in my last post. I know I'm posting some negative sounding remarks but it's all I have and I'm trying to help.
This is why the continuing weight loss concerns me. The last time I had simple day surgery I just needed an EKG, a chest X-ray and a chat with the doctor. If I had shown up the day of the surgery 30 pounds underweight I would have been sent home. That 30 pounds is 20% of my ideal body weight, that's only 3 pounds for a 15 pound cat. Weight loss can damage the kidneys, the liver and many other things. I know Moose cannot undergo general anesthesia but if it gets too bad he might not do well under a mild sedative plus a bunch of drugs that his body cannot absorb properly.
We're having an issue right now with Lewis, it's not definitive whether it's his thyroid but he eats constantly and has stopped losing weight but isn't putting it back on.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top