8/19 Kitty PMPS NA

[Samantha - Kitty]

Hello there. I've posted her a few different times now and I need advice. After a long conversation with my vet today about my cat, we've concluded that she has pancreatic cancer. She dropped 3 lbs within 60 days but she has been slowly gaining about a half pound back. Not much though. She's losing her fur in clumps and after she eats, she is bloated. She pees and poops outside the litter box and everything is just not looking promising for her.
I started B12 methyl last week and while it encouraged her to start grooming her paws again and her face, nothing else has changed. I don't want to poke and prod her anymore to find if it's this or it's that. I'm tired of watching her suffer. My vet has told me I've done everything I possibly can do. I didn't test her before her shot tonight because I'm tired. I'm tired of crying, I'm tired of worrying. I'm trying to be the best I can be for her and my 6 month old son but I'm drained. I don't know how much longer I can take of cleaning up constant urine/poop accidents and blocking her and my other 3 cats off from the rest of my house. I feel so guilty about everything.
Has anyone else out there gone through this? Her numbers are all over the place and everything I try just doesn't seem to work. Really looking for some final answers before my vet makes this final call.
Thank you

 

[tiffmaxee]

I’m sorry she’s not doing well. Were labs run? That is a big weight loss but sometimes cats lose until their bg is controlled. Is she eating well? In terms of insulin when she had an amps of 85 you skipped. That was the right thing to do. But you should have decreased to .75 after that. She went higher because she was bouncing from being lower than she’s used to right now.

This is the most difficult part of having pets. Do you trust your vet? I feel your pain and wish I could help but all I can offer are hugs and prayers.

 

[Chris & China (GA)]

So sorry to hear you're having such a hard time. Only you know your Kitty and what her quality of life is. I will say that the fact she's gained weight makes me question the "guess" that she has pancreatic cancer.

The Methyl B-12 also can take months before you see a lot of definite change. Some cats respond sooner than others. It's just a vitamin so it can't cure quickly.

Have you read through some of the links in this "Making the decision. Help to know when" document?

You have to do what's best for you and your family but you also don't want to make the decision to euthanize if you have any doubt in your heart or you'll always wonder "what if".

As silly as it sounds, sit with her in a quiet place and talk to her. She may tell you that she's tired of fighting.

 

[Olive & Paula]

Sorry to hear this. Were tests done to diagnose cancer?

 

[Samantha - Kitty]

I’m sorry she’s not doing well. Were labs run? That is a big weight loss but sometimes cats lose until their bg is controlled. Is she eating well? In terms of insulin when she had an amps of 85 you skipped. That was the right thing to do. But you should have decreased to .75 after that. She went higher because she was bouncing from being lower than she’s used to right now.

This is the most difficult part of having pets. Do you trust your vet? I feel your pain and wish I could help but all I can offer are hugs and prayers.

We did blood work and it came back normal but we've never actually done a urinalysis but my vet also said that UTI's don't cause a cat to poop outside the litter box and this has been happening since the end of June. Although the one week she got into the 100s she peed less and pooped less outside the litter box. This week, it's like she doesn't even try now. It's puddles and puddles of pee. This week is the furthest backwards I think she's gone. But the frustrating thing is, she show signs of life. She of course is very tired. So tired. She sleeps most the day on her size. Always seems to be the same side almost every time which is her right side which I do testing on because it's more challenging when I need to test her. She seems uncomfortable in the sense that she gets up and moves around a lot. I was just looking at pictures/videos of her last night. The end of the April she had so much life in her. She looked full, beautiful, happy and then now, I don't even recognize that same cat. She only sees me as a source of food. It's like I don't exist to her anymore. I miss her climbing into my arms and snuggling me, sleeping by me in bed. Now it's just food, water, bathroom. Nothing else. I don't want to make the wrong decision. I don't but I also don't know anything else that could be wrong. I do trust her in the sense she's had diabetic cats before and worked closely with a vet who studied diabetes in cats. She wouldn't tell me wrong or tell me to make a decision I'm not comfortable with. She cheered when we first got her BG to drop on Novolin but then told me it wasn't looking great when she stopped reacting to it.

 

[Samantha - Kitty]

So sorry to hear you're having such a hard time. Only you know your Kitty and what her quality of life is. I will say that the fact she's gained weight makes me question the "guess" that she has pancreatic cancer.

The Methyl B-12 also can take months before you see a lot of definite change. Some cats respond sooner than others. It's just a vitamin so it can't cure quickly.

Have you read through some of the links in this "Making the decision. Help to know when" document?

You have to do what's best for you and your family but you also don't want to make the decision to euthanize if you have any doubt in your heart or you'll always wonder "what if".

As silly as it sounds, sit with her in a quiet place and talk to her. She may tell you that she's tired of fighting.

I agree on the "guessing" part but I guess maybe I don't want to know. You know? I can't save her if I know so why do I need the confirmation? I've tried so many things. The weird part is at the beginning, everything in her blood work came back normal. Everything. Nothing said cancer or anything else other than diabetes and I was so unexperienced I trusted my first vet in their recommendation to leave there with 500+ BG levels and just switch her food. For 30 dang days I wasted time. I think that's what hurts the most and they wanted me to do another 30 days on the food (Young Again) and not start insulin. What if that's why she's like this? Because I was unsure and trusted their 30 day recommendation. What if I damaged her pancreas, her kidneys, her liver?

 

[Samantha - Kitty]

So sorry to hear you're having such a hard time. Only you know your Kitty and what her quality of life is. I will say that the fact she's gained weight makes me question the "guess" that she has pancreatic cancer.

The Methyl B-12 also can take months before you see a lot of definite change. Some cats respond sooner than others. It's just a vitamin so it can't cure quickly.

Have you read through some of the links in this "Making the decision. Help to know when" document?

You have to do what's best for you and your family but you also don't want to make the decision to euthanize if you have any doubt in your heart or you'll always wonder "what if".

As silly as it sounds, sit with her in a quiet place and talk to her. She may tell you that she's tired of fighting.

Forgot to respond to the bottom part. On the B12 she actually had improvement in the sense that she FINALLY cleaned the poop off her paws and cleaned her face. She started to try and have life. But at the same time, the urine outside the litter box only increased. Increased to the fact that she NEVER uses the litter box at all now.

Thank you for the article. I talked with a friend who basically said the same thing but I thought I had 5 years left with her at least. I cried about this while I was pregnant. I would pull her in close and tell her I love/loved her so much. And then all of a sudden 3 months later, she gets so sick. I don't think she would tell me LOL she would just think, do you have food please? She used to talk to me in that sense but now, we don't have a connection at all.

 

[Samantha - Kitty]

Sorry to hear this. Were tests done to diagnose cancer?

We didn't because I don't financially want to pay for something that tells me there is no other decision. No one seems to know why this keeps getting worse rather than better so I just have trusted all of our gut decisions. The problem is that it hurts so much. I just wanted her to grow up with my son so she could love him like she loves me. She snuggled him for the first 3 months of his life and now for the last 3 she's just been so sick.

On another note, her fur does seems to be getting a little less chunky and kind of coming back in. You know I would keep trying for a year if I could get the accidents to stop but my kiddo is showing signs of wanting to crawl and our poor home is just covered in urine from paws tracking it in. I can't devote 24/7 to cleaning up after her and while it seems I'm making this decision for the safety of my son, I'm really not. I don't want to forget who she was and right now these last 3 months have clouded my memory of who she was. I don't want to do this for a year to find out that if I made that decision at 3 months in, it was the same decision I got 12 months later you know?

 

[Samantha - Kitty]

I also talked with another vet in town that said pretty much the exact same thing. But she also told me to stop testing so much. She said I only need to test once a day, around noon-1pm which would be about +5 or +6 after amps which obviously I find absurd. She told me that a diabetic cat is regulated at 250-350 in her eyes but that doesn't make any sense. She wanted to do a urinalysis and blood work again. But in the end, what do either of those really tell me? What else could possibly be wrong that is causing her to defecate outside her litter box like this? (pee is normal everyone says but the poop isn't)

 

[tiffmaxee]

If she’s not feeling well from being unregulated or a uti she might pee outside the box. How old is she? Do you have a copy of the labs you could attach? If not have the vet email one to you. Your vet’s don’t seem to understand feline diabetes. Test in mid day does give the nadir but doesn’t let you know if the cat went lower and is bouncing. Cats often go lower at night so never testing at night can be dangerous. I understand how frustrating it is to have a cat not use the litter box. It’s a way fir her to say she doesn’t feel right.

 

[Samantha - Kitty]

If she’s not feeling well from being unregulated or a uti she might pee outside the box. How old is she? Do you have a copy of the labs you could attach? If not have the vet email one to you. Your vet’s don’t seem to understand feline diabetes. Test in mid day does give the nadir but doesn’t let you know if the cat went lower and is bouncing. Cats often go lower at night so never testing at night can be dangerous. I understand how frustrating it is to have a cat not use the litter box. It’s a way fir her to say she doesn’t feel right.

She’s 12. Just turned 12 in February. I have the labs on my spreadsheet on the one tab. That does make sense on not using the litter box of course. The one vet said the injectable antibiotic isn’t the best choice for a cat with a UTI. That the pill form is better. Not sure on that?

 

[tiffmaxee]

That is correct that pills are better for a uti but you need the right antibiotic so a culture and sensitivity is needed. One of my cats got early kidney disease at age 10. I’m going to look at your labs and see if anything triggers. Be back.

 

[tiffmaxee]

When were those labs run? Nothing stands out. I would want a urinalysis to rule out infection. If negative I wonder if it’s all due to the high sugar. If you can handle the expense I would want full labs and a urinalysis sent to the lab just to make sure nothing is being missed. If money is an issue I totally understand and sorry to bring this up.

 

[Samantha - Kitty]

When were those labs run? Nothing stands out. I would want a urinalysis to rule out infection. If negative I wonder if it’s all due to the high sugar. If you can handle the expense I would want full labs and a urinalysis sent to the lab just to make sure nothing is being missed. If money is an issue I totally understand and sorry to bring this up.

That was back in May. They haven't ran anything again since. May 5th I believe was the date. Would a urinalysis tell me cancer too? I mean I was kind of debating that as a last test before we make that final decision. Don't feel bad brining anything up. I'm here because I want ideas/help so I appreciate it!

 

[Samantha - Kitty]

Also noticing when she eats the Friskies Pate Fish variety, she has diarrhea and accidents outside her litter box area. For example, this morning was on the rug.

 

[tiffmaxee]

She could have IBD. Perhaps she can’t handle the fish. Sometimes a novel protein, one she has never eaten can correct that. A urinalysis would only tell you if there’s an infection. What might shed more light would be an ultrasound done by a board certified radiologist. It might show it there’s a tumor or thickening of the intestines. If thickening but no mass it would likely be either IBD or small cell lymphoma. SCL is treated with two pills and cats do well. To differentiate between the two requires a biopsy. The first step would not be any more steps but feeding a novel protein and if she does better. Then you likely have your answer and continue feeding that protein. I am getting way ahead of myself and there’s no way to know if any of this is needed. I just wanted to explain that cancer can not be diagnosed from a urinalysis but infection can. Her kidney values do not show elevation so I doubt she has ckd. The excessive peeing is from uncontrolled fd I bet and possibly a uti.

Let’s try the easiest possibility first. Have you made lots of food changes? The diarrhea could be simply from that.

This is all from personal experience. I’m not a vet or a tech.

 

[Samantha - Kitty]

She could have IBD. Perhaps she can’t handle the fish. Sometimes a novel protein, one she has never eaten can correct that. A urinalysis would only tell you if there’s an infection. What might shed more light would be an ultrasound done by a board certified radiologist. It might show it there’s a tumor or thickening of the intestines. If thickening but no mass it would likely be either IBD or small cell lymphoma. SCL is treated with two pills and cats do well. To differentiate between the two requires a biopsy. The first step would not be any more steps but feeding a novel protein and if she does better. Then you likely have your answer and continue feeding that protein. I am getting way ahead of myself and there’s no way to know if any of this is needed. I just wanted to explain that cancer can not be diagnosed from a urinalysis but infection can. Her kidney values do not show elevation so I doubt she has ckd. The excessive peeing is from uncontrolled fd I bet and possibly a uti.

Let’s try the easiest possibility first. Have you made lots of food changes? The diarrhea could be simply from that.

This is all from personal experience. I’m not a vet or a tech.

Before her diagnosis she ate: Friskies Shreds daily along with she snacked on some Iams dry cat food. She presently eats Friskies Pate which really isn't that big of a difference but she doesn't get to eat hard food anymore so maybe something is causing loose stool? Maybe certain flavors or a loss of fiber? Just throwing some ideas there. Tomorrow at 3pm I'm going to take her in for a Urinalysis. In the meantime, can she try a probiotic? I just don't see her number 2's being the main issue she stopped using the litter box. Something else is going on for her. What is uncontrolled FD? (Sorry new to this lingo yet!) I just buy a mixed 40 can Friskies Pate for her. Maybe that's not ideal? Maybe just buy one kind, let's just say chicken and feed that everyday? She doesn't care about variety. She just loves food and grabbing a case is easier than a bunch of cans. I understand you are not a vet or a tech but honestly, this board has given me way more advice than possible. I live near Steamboat Springs, CO and while I thought we would find the BEST possible care and knowledge, I'm discovering that is not true and this is more of a small town. Now if I was in Denver, I believe I would have had my answer a long time ago!

 

[Chris & China (GA)]

In the meantime, can she try a probiotic?

Absolutely! It sure can't hurt! There's also some good information in this "My cat has diarrhea" page.

What is uncontrolled FD?

FD = Feline Diabetes

Now if I was in Denver, I believe I would have had my answer a long time ago!

Don't bet on it. We have people from big cities and small towns here. Vets just don't get the kind of education on FD that the people here have learned. A vet school only has 4 years to teach a little bit about everything, so they actually get less than 1 day on diabetes and that includes all types of animals. The schools can't spend 2 weeks on each different disease, the various treatments, in various types of animals. That's why this board is such a great resource.

 

[Pamela & Amethyst]

Healing hugs and prayers

 

[tiffmaxee]

Since she will eat anything how about trying a protein she’s never had before. There’s duck, rabbit, venison, pork. One of mine has skin allergies and she’s getting only venison. She loves food too so doesn’t need variety, anti jinx.

 

[Samantha - Kitty]

Absolutely! It sure can't hurt! There's also some good information in this "My cat has diarrhea" page.



FD = Feline Diabetes



Don't bet on it. We have people from big cities and small towns here. Vets just don't get the kind of education on FD that the people here have learned. A vet school only has 4 years to teach a little bit about everything, so they actually get less than 1 day on diabetes and that includes all types of animals. The schools can't spend 2 weeks on each different disease, the various treatments, in various types of animals. That's why this board is such a great resource.

The "My cat has diarrhea" page was excellent! Going to town today. Picking up some probiotics and I think I'm going to try the baby food idea! Why? Because I have a baby and I have a great excuse to buy it PLUS I don't have to go through the extra work of making it. Crazy thing is, my dogs eat a raw diet. I've tried with Kitty before and she just throws it up. Even when I make bland chicken. She just doesn't stomach it very well. So let's see the creative baby food idea!

Thank you on the FD!

Good point on the diabetes education. It's frustrating but at the same time, how exactly can they know everything you know? I mean you do your research and then you bring it to them and try ideas. I think the hardest thing for me is the fact it's all trial and error. So much! Let's cross our fingers for a GREAT outcome at the vet today. They have to send it to a lab so it won't be till tomorrow I actually find out for sure but I'm patient. I'm really hoping for some good news.

 

[Samantha - Kitty]

Weird things - Kitty is getting more strength. How do I know? She decided to jump on the table last night. She hasn't done that since APRIL. She actually gets FULL now and stops eating. She will walk off and just be done. On that note, since she lost so much weight, is it normal if she's just scarfing food like it's her last meal ever to be bloated?

I know what you all mean that a pet will tell you it's their time to go. Even though Kitty and I lost our connection we once had (being sick sucks!), she hasn't ever looked at me like she's just giving up. She comes up maybe once a day for a quick pet. I was petting her tummy earlier and she doesn't cry or pull away like she hurts. That's why I'm here and asking for advice. So many things just don't add up for her. I just don't want to make the wrong decision. I didn't know you could feel such a deep love for a pet!

 

[tiffmaxee]

If you have been feeding a lot of chicken I’d get some other jars of baby food. My cats like pork. One never would eat chicken but liked turkey and beef. They all liked Gerbers seconds all meat only. So get variety to try. It’s good it ain’t go to waste with the baby.

 

[tiffmaxee]

A cat that eats and relates with you is not giving signs that it’s time. I think you are reading her well. If she starts to withdraw and hide and not eat she might be saying something else. I hope you get get a diagnosis so you can make educated decisions.

 

[Samantha - Kitty]

If you have been feeding a lot of chicken I’d get some other jars of baby food. My cats like pork. One never would eat chicken but liked turkey and beef. They all liked Gerbers seconds all meat only. So get variety to try. It’s good it ain’t go to waste with the baby.

Thank you for the idea! I will do that for sure!

A cat that eats and relates with you is not giving signs that it’s time. I think you are reading her well. If she starts to withdraw and hide and not eat she might be saying something else. I hope you get get a diagnosis so you can make educated decisions.

Ditto! I will keep you guys posted! I might start a new thread tomorrow so I can do some good updates and just kind of collect all this information into a new thread. I'll note everything is done on my spreadsheet and such as well. I can't thank you all enough! Especially having no judgement and feeling like I can tell you everything I need too. It's great to have a community like this!

 

[tiffmaxee]

Yes. Start a new thread and link this one.