19/3 Mauer AMPS 176, +3 184, +6 92, +8 104 PMPS 101

these dose reductions seem more and more tricky :nailbiting: Chico is still holding on to his and yesterday it looked like he was pushing for another one but i believe i is too early for another one :nailbiting:
Hope Mauer finds her way to the greens again, after a bounce they tend to have a quicker drop, maybe she will see the tip of the greens today

In my simplistic understanding she was clearing a bounce on the 17/3 AM cycle, so she dropped to greens. The PM cycle of the 17th and in the AM cycle on the 18th were "normal" cycles because they were precedented by "normal" cycles. She bounced in the night, so she might drop a bit lower today is she clears the bounce. If she doesn't go to reasonably lower values (if it were Chico) i would consider an increase. But then i don't give dosing advice so please take it with a pinch of salt.
 
if I can hijack your thread Sasha..... a bounce from what?

I think I understand the concept of bouncing... but it isn't just any random increase is it? it is in response to a low value, correct?

What is the explanation for when a kitty start seeing random increases?
 
Hercule's mum said:
if I can hijack your thread Sasha..... a bounce from what?

I think I understand the concept of bouncing... but it isn't just any random increase is it? it is in response to a low value, correct?

What is the explanation for when a kitty start seeing random increases?
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I believe that since Mauer didn't have consistent lower values in the last week she is reacting again to anything her body considers as low. She did bounce in yellow and not in pink. I am judging based on Chico, i see him bouncing in blue from values he theoretically already saw. But i can say it was a bounce by the fact that the following cycle he dived much lower than usually - so it was a much more active cycle than what he got used to in the previous period.

Let's let more experienced people say their opinions, i am curious if my understanding is correct as well...
 
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If my understanding is correct, my next conclusion would be that we should hold the dose if the cat went under 50 in a bounce clearing cycle and only reduce if the lower than 50 is achieved in a "normal" cycle. I see now that we reduced Chico's dose after a bounce clearing cycle as well which in my opinion is pure luck that it is sticking. o_Oo_Oo_O

@Gill & George @Bandit's Mom please correct me if i am wrong, i wouldn't like to be spreading fake news :D
 
Hercule's mum said:
if I can hijack your thread Sasha..... a bounce from what?

I think I understand the concept of bouncing... but it isn't just any random increase is it? it is in response to a low value, correct?

What is the explanation for when a kitty start seeing random increases?
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Thats exactly what I don't see either. Maybe she had a low yesterday in the 6 hours I wasn't testing? But she's not bouncing as much as she used to, so this bounce, if that's what it was, took me by surprise...
 
SashaV said:
Thats exactly what I don't see either. Maybe she had a low yesterday in the 6 hours I wasn't testing? But she's not bouncing as much as she used to, so this bounce, if that's what it was, took me by surprise...
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For example from the fact that she saw 1.5 days of blues for the first time since the 9th of March. Of course now i am just speculating but that is what i gave up on doing, trying to understand why is Chico bouncing :D

Maybe i am confirmation biased but i see the same pattern in Hercule's spreadsheet (@Hercule's mum ) with the reduction on the 7/3 AM cycle which was achieved in a bounce clearing cycle.
 
SashaV said:
Thats exactly what I don't see either. Maybe she had a low yesterday in the 6 hours I wasn't testing? But she's not bouncing as much as she used to, so this bounce, if that's what it was, took me by surprise...
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A much more obvious example is Chico's bounce cycle on the 9/3 AM which was most likely triggered not by the low values (because he saw those before already) but because he saw these low values for the first time for around 12 continuous hours. I know Mauer saw the blue values before but i guess their bodies tend to "forget" about it
 
Again sorry for hijacking your thread Sasha, but hopefully this is a useful discussion for all of us.

Marina & Chico said:
I believe that since Mauer didn't have consistent lower values in the last week she is reacting again to anything her body considers as low.
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I hear what you are saying Marina, but this concept just makes it really easy to call everything bouncing. So Hercs had a lower AMPS this AM, after staying on yellow the whole night. Then 2 hours after 2% carb food, he already jumped up considerably. That sounds like he does not have enough insulin to deal with his food. But I can also say it is because he hasn't been on yellow for a while and it is bouncing... Because he had so many week hanging on blues and greens for so long, I have a hard time understaning why he is all of a sudden bouncing from going into yellow, but who knows?


An alternative explanation would be that our dear kitties have a spluttering pancreas that produces insulin every now and then? and that is why we see these dives (when they decide to contribute insulin on their own)? and the random" bouncing" is more an indication that they are not able to continuously keep up with the demands? I have tried to do some research on animal physiology... but haven't found a clear source for what happens in cats yet...


Marina & Chico said:
If my understanding is correct, my next conclusion would be that we should hold the dose if the cat went under 50 in a bounce clearing cycle and only reduce if the lower than 50 is achieved in a "normal" cycle.
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I have come to similar conclusion. The trouble is that some kitties (like my beloved) rarely ever has a "normal" cycle. :banghead::banghead::banghead:
 
Hercule's mum said:
Again sorry for hijacking your thread Sasha, but hopefully this is a useful discussion for all of us.

I hear what you are saying Marina, but this concept just makes it really easy to call everything bouncing. So Hercs had a lower AMPS this AM, after staying on yellow the whole night. Then 2 hours after 2% carb food, he already jumped up considerably. That sounds like he does not have enough insulin to deal with his food. But I can also say it is because he hasn't been on yellow for a while and it is bouncing... Because he had so many week hanging on blues and greens for so long, I have a hard time understaning why he is all of a sudden bouncing from going into yellow, but who knows?
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i really hope this is a useful discussion for all of us as well, we all filter our ideas and maybe some conclusions can come out of it.

I believe (again my very simplistic understanding) that the yellow from yesterday is still bouncing from the blue on the 16th

Hercule's mum said:
An alternative explanation would be that our dear kitties have a spluttering pancreas that produces insulin every now and then? and that is why we see these dives (when they decide to contribute insulin on their own)? and the random" bouncing" is more an indication that they are not able to continuously keep up with the demands? I have tried to do some research on animal physiology... but haven't found a clear source for what happens in cats yet...
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and here we go and you come up with a theory that completely screws up my understanding hahaha you are completely right, it might be that their pancreas is not a machine that does consistently what we expect them to, this is not reflected in my otherwise perfect theory hahah we have to keep this idea somewhere in the back of our heads in order not to kill ourselves in the search for the "truth"

i like to think that if Hercules was able to achieve pretty much consistent greens on 0.75 and then started seeing pretty greens on the 0.5 at least by staying at that dosage he should be doing the same. I started to think about reductions because i saw that the TR protocol says that you need to measure 3x below 50 before reducing. On the forum the practice is that after one value we can decrease and that i believe is because we measure much more then the TR says is enough, therefore we have more information about what is our kitties patterns. Gill and Bhooma brought to my attention for the first time the difference between a bounce clearing cycle needing much more intervention than a normal cycle on the 5th of March PM cycle. I don't want to go into unnecessary details but my point is that if we decide for a reduction based on a particularly active bounce clearing cycle maybe it is too early to reduce, we want to see stable green and blue values before reducing. That is exactly what i see in Hercule's spreadsheet and in Mauer's spreadsheet, that when a reduction was done after stable green and blue cycles they worked but when they were done based on a bounce clearing cycle they didn't work. I hope it makes sense

Hercule's mum said:
I have come to similar conclusion. The trouble is that some kitties (like my beloved) rarely ever has a "normal" cycle. :banghead::banghead::banghead:
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i think 0.75 was giving a lot of "normal" cycles. It was clear though that you had to reduce from 0.75, Hercules was very clear about that :D:D i have a bug in my head going around the 47 that you measured at AMPS on the 19/2, did you confirm it with another test? it seems peculiar for such a low value at the end of the cycle but i know that our kitties like to "surprise" us like that sometimes

Don't get me wrong, i really don't think i have it figured out, i just like to chew on some ideas until they are settled so i am very happy for the dialogue
 
Marina & Chico said:
the TR protocol says that you need to measure 3x below 50 before reducing
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My understanding is that this rule is for "long-term diabetic cats". So Mauer, could fit in that definition, but Chico and Hercules not yet.... That being said I was very reluctant to reduce from 0.5, but decide to follow the rules for once ;) We are increasing tonight though, and hopefully 0.5 will be enough again!
 
Hercule's mum said:
My understanding is that this rule is for "long-term diabetic cats". So Mauer, could fit in that definition, but Chico and Hercules not yet.... That being said I was very reluctant to reduce from 0.5, but decide to follow the rules for once ;) We are increasing tonight though, and hopefully 0.5 will be enough again!
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i see what you mean with the long-term diabetic cats, you are right

Good luck with the increase, we are rooting for you two :)

Sorry @SashaV for hijacking your post :D we are done for today
 
No seriously hijack away! Very interesting thread this is! :D

Mauer LT diabetic is not something we talk about, or act on yet :rolleyes:

Marina & Chico said:
Based on today +2 AM seems to be a bounce, maybe all the blues + yellow are just a bounce from the green :-? last time she does seem to have bounced for 6 cycles :confused::confused:
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I don't think it was a bounce. My gut feeling is off on this one...
And she hasn't bounced on Lev like she did on Prozinc. But the last one was a LONG one :eek: and I was afraid the reduction wasn't holding. But I wish new dose wonkiness applied to reductions too... seems more logical to me, rather the increased dose.

I'm debating whether I do a +5 or +6....
 
Noticed earlier that she stinks of Lev in her scruff area, so a possible fur-shot? At some point? :oops:
 
I don't think the smell can hang around for more than a couple of hours can it? So if it was a fur shot, it would have to be this morning... and her numbers say otherwise. Look at this perfect smillie cycle!
 
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Marina & Chico said:
my next conclusion would be that we should hold the dose if the cat went under 50 in a bounce clearing cycle and only reduce if the lower than 50 is achieved in a "normal" cycle
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First of all, this depends on the cat. Some cats hold reductions, regardless when they did it, some don't. Second, even in cats that don't hold such reductions, it'd depend how low they go. A dip to upper 40's is different than a visit below 40, where we'd take a reduction regardless.

There are some explanations about why numbers differ from cycle to cycle in the Sticky Note: What is the Insulin Depot?
Marina & Chico said:
I started to think about reductions because i saw that the TR protocol says that you need to measure 3x below 50 before reducing.
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Actually no. The rule on TR for earning reductions for long term diabetics is 1 time under 40 or a week in normal green numbers. For cats that do no hold reductions well, some people choose to follow the three times between 40 and 49 on 3 separate days, or once under 40. More details on reductions here: Reminder: *earning* reductions and starting OTJ trials

SashaV said:
Noticed earlier that she stinks of Lev in her scruff area, so a possible fur-shot? At some point?
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It's possible you did a furshot, or had a drop on the needle from when you squeezed out some excess before shooting. Depend whether a light smell or a lot. And I found the smell stuck around at least a day.

With nadirs in the 80's and above, you probably have some room for an increase. Personal experience with Neko told me she needed to have nadirs in the 70's or lower, or she'd bounce a lot more. Of course, ECID.
 
Wendy&Neko said:
First of all, this depends on the cat. Some cats hold reductions, regardless when they did it, some don't. Second, even in cats that don't hold such reductions, it'd depend how low they go. A dip to upper 40's is different than a visit below 40, where we'd take a reduction regardless.

There are some explanations about why numbers differ from cycle to cycle in the Sticky Note: What is the Insulin Depot?

Actually no. The rule on TR for earning reductions for long term diabetics is 1 time under 40 or a week in normal green numbers. For cats that do no hold reductions well, some people choose to follow the three times between 40 and 49 on 3 separate days, or once under 40. More details on reductions here: Reminder: *earning* reductions and starting OTJ trials


It's possible you did a furshot, or had a drop on the needle from when you squeezed out some excess before shooting. Depend whether a light smell or a lot. And I found the smell stuck around at least a day.

With nadirs in the 80's and above, you probably have some room for an increase. Personal experience with Neko told me she needed to have nadirs in the 70's or lower, or she'd bounce a lot more. Of course, ECID.
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Thanks for the reading material and for the clarification :)
 
Wendy&Neko said:
First of all, this depends on the cat. Some cats hold reductions, regardless when they did it, some don't. Second, even in cats that don't hold such reductions, it'd depend how low they go. A dip to upper 40's is different than a visit below 40, where we'd take a reduction regardless.

There are some explanations about why numbers differ from cycle to cycle in the Sticky Note: What is the Insulin Depot?

Actually no. The rule on TR for earning reductions for long term diabetics is 1 time under 40 or a week in normal green numbers. For cats that do no hold reductions well, some people choose to follow the three times between 40 and 49 on 3 separate days, or once under 40. More details on reductions here: Reminder: *earning* reductions and starting OTJ trials


It's possible you did a furshot, or had a drop on the needle from when you squeezed out some excess before shooting. Depend whether a light smell or a lot. And I found the smell stuck around at least a day.

With nadirs in the 80's and above, you probably have some room for an increase. Personal experience with Neko told me she needed to have nadirs in the 70's or lower, or she'd bounce a lot more. Of course, ECID.
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I'm running low on strips, so I don't think an increase is a good idea. I don't have room for a nearby hypo :oops:
I'll just see a few more cycles. Maybe she needs to settle in.

The smell was...strong o_O
Could one fur shot show as a yellow cycle and then back down?
 
SashaV said:
Could one fur shot show as a yellow cycle and then back down?
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Yes. Some cats show a stronger reaction the cycle after a fur shot, but you could still see her go higher the couple cycles after that too, as the depot rebuilds.
 
Wendy&Neko said:
Yes. Some cats show a stronger reaction the cycle after a fur shot, but you could still see her go higher the couple cycles after that too, as the depot rebuilds.
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Interesting! I remove the drop before shooting, so the fur won't feel wet. And I feel every time... this one must have gone undercover :oops:
 
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