2/4 - Wally AMPS=148, +2-113, +3.75=42, +4.5=63,+5=73,+6=77 ,+7=105 ,+9=189, +11.25=259, PMPS+2=369

Ginger Cat

Member Since 2017
Just when I thought I'd be upping his dose this morning, based on his numbers last night, look at this beautiful blue number! Of course, let's see what he does during the day today...

I didn't get a nadir after his PM shot because I really needed to get some sleep. He gets his shots at 8:30 am/pm.

thanks everyone for your advice yesterday.
 
It does look as his bounce is clearing, be sure to get a +1,
Make sure he doesn't get up to any shenanigans.
 
Just did a plus 2 and he's gone down slightly to 113 so I fed him some FF, topped with freeze dried chicken.
 
Looks like he's heading to the lagoon.

Are you going to be around?

He's only just onset and it's a significant drop, at +2, if I had to guess I would say this is going to be an active cycle.

. If it was me I'd be tempted to get a +3, certainly no later than +4.

Good job with the snack, might help flatten him out.
 
i had to run an errand. Tested him as soon as I got home as he was begging for food. Sure enough, at +3.75 he was down to 42. Fed him more FF, tested again after 45 minutes and he's up to 63. Acting perfectly fine. I'll keep checking him to make sure he's going up.
 
:eek: naughty Wally.
Glad you were not out for longer.

That +2 being lower on the tails of clearing s bounce was a warning bell on what he had planned.
I wish I'd caught you just before you went out.

For future reference faced with this situation again if you had to dash out it might have been safer to feed him a MC or even HC +2. 42 on the AT is pretty low. And or leave food down for him, I used an autofeeder for these sorts of situations.

What are you planning on doing with the dose tonight?
 
:eek: naughty Wally.
Glad you were not out for longer.

That +2 being lower on the tails of clearing s bounce was a warning bell on what he had planned.
I wish I'd caught you just before you went out.

For future reference faced with this situation again if you had to dash out it might have been safer to feed him a MC or even HC +2. 42 on the AT is pretty low. And or leave food down for him, I used an autofeeder for these sorts of situations.

What are you planning on doing with the dose tonight?
He's up to 73 now at +5 and I just fed him more LC FF. I can't leave food down because I have 3 other cats and they'll eat it before he does. I knew I was only going to be out of the house for about 1+ hours and I had to get that errand run. I was wondering about tonight's dose. I know that one of the ideas mentioned yesterday was to not immediately lower the dose based on 1 number in the hypo range, but to continue to give him the existing dose and see how he does. When I did go down to 1.75 he bounced really fast. I'll see what his numbers are like tonight PMPS and make a decision then.
 
Remember 42 is not the “hypo” range. It is low numbers. Was Wally showing any hypo symptoms other than hunger? Cats not on insulin can test in the 40’s, we just don’t want cats on insulin there.

Wally doesn’t seem to hold reductions well. You could move to the three times between 40 and 49 on different days method for reductions. In which case today is first of three. Note that any number in the 30’s is an immediate reduction.
 
On TR if you were using a human meter, as a long term diabetic he would earn a reduction with a single drop below 40.
Some people use three drops below 50 (but above 40) to earn a reduction, I think that is what you are referring to. A drop into the 30's with a human meter is an instant reduction.

The problem is that we don't have an equivalent for 40 on the AT.

So I'm not sure if a 42 on an AT is sensible to hold.
 
Sorry, I should have clarified my numbers above were on the human meter. It would be good to have a human meter to double check those lows if you want to follow the method for cats that don’t hold reductions well.
 
When I did go down to 1.75 he bounced really fast
Firstly I don't think what you are calling a fast bounce, is what is what we commonly refer to as a bounce.
When you dropped to 1.75, he stayed high because you took a 0,5u reduction instead of a 0.25u, the 1.75u wasn't enough for him at that point so you didn't see him come back down into green. He did bounce after he hit those lime greens, he would have done that whatever you shot, the problem was he didn't clear the bounce (get back into good numbers) because you reduced by too much
this is the definition of a bounce taken from the basics sticky, not all high numbers are bounces.
  • Bouncing - Bouncing is simply a natural reaction to what the cat's system perceives as a BG value that is "too low". "Too low" is relative. If a cat is used to BGs in the 200's, 300's, or higher for a long time, then even a BG that drops to 150 can trigger a "bounce". Bouncing can also be triggered if the blood glucose drops too low and/or too fast.The pancreas, then the liver, release glucogon, glycogen and counter-regulatory hormones. The end result is a dumping of "sugar" into the bloodstream to save the cat from going hypoglycemic from a perceived low. The action is often referred to as "liver panic" or "panicky liver". *Usually*, a bounce will clear kitty's system within 3 days (6 cycles).
I do think that Wally will bounce after getting into these lime greens, he may well shoot up quite high by PMPS, it seems to be the way he rolls.
The big question is what is a good safe dose for Wally.

He is bouncy and a long term diabetic, on TR when using a human meter you have the three drops below 50 option to try. I know it was suggested that you could try three drops below 68, and if he had only been just below 68 I would have said hold, but he was 42.... I just feel that is cutting it a bit fine, it might equate to a number in the 30's or even the 20's (George tested 27 once and had no symptoms other than he was demanding food, wouldn't move away from his bowl)


So with today's numbers if I were in your shoes I would take the reduction to 1.75u, and see where he lands when he clears the bounce.

But one thing that we can try, to help him clear the bounce more quickly, is Shooting through the Bounce.
So if tonight when you get pmps he is pink or higher (That would be him starting his bounce) you would shoot 2u tonight, and then take the reduction in the morning. You ONLY hold the 2u for one cycle, and ONLY if he bounces.
If he doesn't bounce, so he's green blue or yellow you take the reduction tonight. (he's been staying flat so far so you never know)


Going forward, given he is a long term diabetic, and bouncy with it, if I were you I would swap over to Human meter. It gives you more options for dosing strategies that will help a bouncy long term diabetic. the freestyle freedom lite uses a tiny sample like the pet meters, its easy to use, I have it as my backup and its the one my petsitter uses when she looks after george.

what are you thoughts?





 
Firstly I don't think what you are calling a fast bounce, is what is what we commonly refer to as a bounce.
When you dropped to 1.75, he stayed high because you took a 0,5u reduction instead of a 0.25u, the 1.75u wasn't enough for him at that point so you didn't see him come back down into green. He did bounce after he hit those lime greens, he would have done that whatever you shot, the problem was he didn't clear the bounce (get back into good numbers) because you reduced by too much
this is the definition of a bounce taken from the basics sticky, not all high numbers are bounces.
  • Bouncing - Bouncing is simply a natural reaction to what the cat's system perceives as a BG value that is "too low". "Too low" is relative. If a cat is used to BGs in the 200's, 300's, or higher for a long time, then even a BG that drops to 150 can trigger a "bounce". Bouncing can also be triggered if the blood glucose drops too low and/or too fast.The pancreas, then the liver, release glucogon, glycogen and counter-regulatory hormones. The end result is a dumping of "sugar" into the bloodstream to save the cat from going hypoglycemic from a perceived low. The action is often referred to as "liver panic" or "panicky liver". *Usually*, a bounce will clear kitty's system within 3 days (6 cycles).
I do think that Wally will bounce after getting into these lime greens, he may well shoot up quite high by PMPS, it seems to be the way he rolls.
The big question is what is a good safe dose for Wally.

He is bouncy and a long term diabetic, on TR when using a human meter you have the three drops below 50 option to try. I know it was suggested that you could try three drops below 68, and if he had only been just below 68 I would have said hold, but he was 42.... I just feel that is cutting it a bit fine, it might equate to a number in the 30's or even the 20's (George tested 27 once and had no symptoms other than he was demanding food, wouldn't move away from his bowl)


So with today's numbers if I were in your shoes I would take the reduction to 1.75u, and see where he lands when he clears the bounce.

But one thing that we can try, to help him clear the bounce more quickly, is Shooting through the Bounce.
So if tonight when you get pmps he is pink or higher (That would be him starting his bounce) you would shoot 2u tonight, and then take the reduction in the morning. You ONLY hold the 2u for one cycle, and ONLY if he bounces.
If he doesn't bounce, so he's green blue or yellow you take the reduction tonight. (he's been staying flat so far so you never know)


Going forward, given he is a long term diabetic, and bouncy with it, if I were you I would swap over to Human meter. It gives you more options for dosing strategies that will help a bouncy long term diabetic. the freestyle freedom lite uses a tiny sample like the pet meters, its easy to use, I have it as my backup and its the one my petsitter uses when she looks after george.

what are you thoughts?




He just finally went back up over 100. I think, based on his numbers PMPS, that if he's high enough, I'll stay with the 2 units and then reduce in the morning. When Wally was first diagnosed, I did use a human meter, given to me by a friend. I eventually switched to the AT2 and have been happy with it, using the PetSure strips to save money. I could certainly get a human meter as a backup/comparison, especially when he's giving me low numbers...If you're using this as a backup, what's your 'normal' meter?
 
If you're using this as a backup, what's your 'normal' meter?
I have two human meters a SD code free and the Freestyle freedom lite.
Originally I just had the SD code free, strips were much cheaper, here in Spain the strips for the Freestyle are expensive at the pharmacy, and I tested a lot. I ended up getting the Freestyle one evening, I had to make a mad dash to the pharmacy after George sent his meter for a swim in his fountain. It's a good idea to have a back up, for situations like that.

The freestyle lite is very easy to use because of the tiny drop the SD has a larger drop, it doesn't bother me, but my pet sitter had difficulty getting enough blood, so when she's incharge she uses the freestyle.

I eventually switched to the AT2 and have been happy with it, using the PetSure strips to save money. I
I'm sure it's a great meter, I know a lot of people like it. The problem is that the dosing strategies were devised before pet meters were widely available, so the ranges relate to human meters not Pet meters, and because there is no way of converting the numbers it means that you can't take full advantage of TR. The 68 as a reduction point was a number that after much investigation was decided would be a safe reduction point for TR with a Pet meter. But none of the other ranges are covered.

I could certainly get a human meter as a backup/comparison,
That would work you could test numbers below 68 with the human meter, I like to keep my life simple so I would just swap to the human meter and use the AT from time to time to see how he's doing, some folks use the AT when they're asked to run a curve for the vet for instance, but use the human meter the rest of the time. It's up to you,:)
 
I can't leave food down because I have 3 other cats and they'll eat it before he does.
multiple kitty household, always tricky.
Another alternative would have been to give him a MC snack (couple of teaspoons) as you head out the door , if he is dropping and you have to go out. Or, if you can, separating him from the civies and leaving him with some food just for him. George sleeps separate from the civies, (we have four cats in the house) put it's more a case of him eating all their food than the other way round, I'm the food police at meal times:rolleyes:.
 
I think, based on his numbers PMPS, that if he's high enough, I'll stay with the 2 units
we want to see him well into the pinks, but yes that's a good plan.
Remember to grab a +2 if he's dropping you will need to monitor the pm cycle closely, he's been taking his time clearing bounces, but they do mix things up from time to time. i
 
Gita, I'm heading to bed.
Do you think you could get a +11 and post just to see where he's at and if shooting through the bounce is on the cards. @JaxBenji may be able to watch out for you to give you some moral support.
 
Gita, I'm heading to bed.
Do you think you could get a +11 and post just to see where he's at and if shooting through the bounce is on the cards. @JaxBenji may be able to watch out for you to give you some moral support.
I normally take his PMPS reading at 8 pm which is actually +11.5.
And thank you so much for your advice/guidance today.
 
I normally take his PMPS reading at 8 pm which is actually +11.5.
And thank you so much for your advice/guidance today.
Hi Gita! Congrats on the reduction - Wally sure is beautiful :cat: Any chance you can start getting at +12 as your PMPS reading? A lot can change in 30 minutes. Gill's advice to get a +11 was incase Wally throws a curve ball and we can source help before your shot time :cat: and then of course your +12 would be your PMPS reading.
 
Hi Gita! Congrats on the reduction - Wally sure is beautiful :cat: Any chance you can start getting at +12 as your PMPS reading? A lot can change in 30 minutes. Gill's advice to get a +11 was incase Wally throws a curve ball and we can source help before your shot time :cat: and then of course your +12 would be your PMPS reading.
I just took a reading and he's at 259. This is basically at +11.25. His schedule is normally test around 8 am/pm, feed and then shoot around 8:30 am/pm. I have to slow down his eating because he's a scarf and barf if I don't.

I think he'll be okay with 2 units tonight, but I will take a +2 PMPS for sure and then take it from there.
 
I think he'll be okay with 2 units tonight, but I will take a +2 PMPS for sure and then take it from there.
So just reading through your condo, the advice is if pink or higher (>300) or higher, give 2u; if yellow or lower (<300), give reduced dose 1.75u. Perhaps you can grab that +12 tonight just to make sure he's >300?

I have to slow down his eating because he's a scarf and barf if I don't.
Ohhh I can relate. Jax is a scafer and barfer and if I don't watch him, he'll eat his own barf :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: it's as disgusting as it sounds :p

FWIW, my routine with Jax is to give a freeze dried treat to test, anything >50 (on my human meter) I put his 1/3 of his meal down and shoot while he's eating his first course :joyful: I wait 7ish minutes and give another third of his food and then feed the last third a bit after. This whole ordeal is generally successful (i.e. no throw up unless I rush the feedings).

Perhaps you can start getting a +12 as your PMPS routine - this will be even more important as Wally gets to better numbers as really a lot can change in 30 minutes. Let me see if I can find the example I'm thinking of in my head :cat:
 
So just reading through your condo, the advice is if pink or higher (>300) or higher, give 2u; if yellow or lower (<300), give reduced dose 1.75u. Perhaps you can grab that +12 tonight just to make sure he's >300?


Ohhh I can relate. Jax is a scafer and barfer and if I don't watch him, he'll eat his own barf :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: it's as disgusting as it sounds :p

FWIW, my routine with Jax is to give a freeze dried treat to test, anything >50 (on my human meter) I put his 1/3 of his meal down and shoot while he's eating his first course :joyful: I wait 7ish minutes and give another third of his food and then feed the last third a bit after. This whole ordeal is generally successful (i.e. no throw up unless I rush the feedings).

Perhaps you can start getting a +12 as your PMPS routine - this will be even more important as Wally gets to better numbers as really a lot can change in 30 minutes. Let me see if I can find the example I'm thinking of in my head :cat:
Based on the AT2 readings, he is in the yellow which goes from 200-299 so that would mean I give him a reduced dose of 1.75. Of course, now he's not wanting to eat much at all :cat:. Let's see if some Forti Flora will entice him to eat more. It helped, but he's still being picky. He's eaten at least 1/2 so we're good to go.

His +12 is when I actually administer his dose since I take 1/2 hour between testing (at 8) and shooting at 8:30. I know that's not what most people do, but it works for him and for my other cats who also are slower eaters so I have to separate everyone during meal times.
 
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Based on the AT2 readings, he is in the yellow which goes from 200-299 so that would mean I give him a reduced dose of 1.75.
yup, spot on :bighug:glad we're on the same page! so looks like 1.75u tonight.

Eating enough for me to feel comfortable dosing and I know he'll eat more later as that's what he tends to do.
So I can't personally relate to this (as Jax will eat any food at any given time :p), but as long as you know Wally will eat then you should be good shooting (and you have supplies to monitor of course but I feel like you know that part :)).

His +12 is when I actually administer his dose since I take 1/2 hour between testing (at 8) and shooting at 8:30. I know that's not what most people do, but it works for him and for my other cats who also are slower eaters so I have to separate everyone during meal times.
Yup I understood - just was nudging you to get a test closer to +12 :bighug: meal time with multiple cats can be crazy :) I have two kitties and separate them at meals and overnight which I know doesn't work for others either - just sharing how I manage my grumpy old men over here :)
 
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