12/07 BuddyM AMPS 385, +2 379, +4, 365, +6 351, Lantus Newbie

Mariette

Mariette

Member Since 2020
Hi Lantus people,

We're new here. I see there's another Buddy here so I'll post as BuddyM for us.

I switched Buddy over to Lantus from ProZinc on Friday 12/04. We're 4 days in. I was very excited on day 2 to see some yellow numbers but we went straight to red and now pink today.

I want to keep him on 3 units for tomorrow because I'm curious which way the wind will blow him.. up or down. And I see it's recommended to keep steady the first 5-7 days.
But it seems he'll need to be increased. Do you guys think I should increase on day 6 or hold for a few more days?
And then go to 3.25 or 3.5?

Apologies for not doing the expected preshot reading. I can't shoot Buddy while he's eating.. he doesn't like to be touched while eating (feral holdover?). I'm trying to get him used to it but he squirms away. So I need to measure a while before, then feed, then get him relaxed so I can do the shot. It takes about an hour at the moment.

Thank you!
Mariette
 
Welcome to the best place you never wanted to be Mariette! It's a great forum and you'll get lots of info around here.

Have you read the stickies at the top? It'll help you understand how Lantus is supposed to work - it's a depot style insulin, a hormone really and it takes time to become effective by building what they call a 'depot'...once the depot has built the the numbers will start to fall...if after giving it enough time to build - the 6 cycles if you're following the TR dosing method (which one are you following?) then you increase by .25...and keep increasing every 6 -10 cycles based on the nadirs (the lowest number reached during each cycle) until you start seeing better numbers.

I'm sorry to hear he's so difficult to test - but although Luci was never feral she was a real hell-cat when it came to those early days of testing. It took two of us to hold on to her to get the tests and it was an exhausting process each and every time. But finally after a few months she settled into the routine of it...mostly because it always involved food - Luci's loves her treats and food and she always earned a treat or some food with every test...now she's got the routine down cold and knows what's coming - FOOD- so she's pretty chill about the whole testing thing - I wish I had some video of our early days - but I didn't have the presence of mind to be getting any of that wrestling match on video - LOL!

One thing I might mention though, is that the goal here is to try to get the test and food within about 20 minutes of the shot...things can change so fast with these kitties...

Hang in there and welcome again!
 
Thank you Sue!

Strangely Buddy is not difficult at all with the testing. He is extremely patient even though I sometimes have to do a bunch of attempts. It's the shots that I have issues with. So I need him fed and calmed down before I can shoot. He's insane when he's hungry (He's on a diet too). So yeah, first test in the morning is difficult. But then he has to eat in peace and get settled down. He feels and reacts to the needle. It's probably operator error but that's where we are now. He ripples his back, pulls away etc when the needle makes contact. But when he's calmer it's easier of course.

I'm working towards shrinking that time frame for everybody's sake. We're just not there yet.

I think we'll be doing TR. Saying we're doing TR sounds like we know what we're doing so we're not saying that yet haha. But I want to get him in good numbers as soon as possible so whatever way I can do that safely is the way we want to go.
 
Welcome Mariette! I'm kind of a newbie here, but my Ruby also shrinks from me a bit when she feels the needle. I try to get her when she is sitting at the bowl, but now she knows I'm coming at her while she's eating so she doesn't sit. When she feels me tenting her fur she walks away. She's totally happy though for me to poke her with the needle away from the food bowl a few minutes later.

Wondering what kind of syringe you are using. I'm using BD Ultra Fine 31 gauge ⅝ inch/8 mm needle, which in theory the cat shouldn't feel too much.
 
PerfumedCatMom said:
Welcome Mariette! I'm kind of a newbie here, but my Ruby also shrinks from me a bit when she feels the needle. I try to get her when she is sitting at the bowl, but now she knows I'm coming at her while she's eating so she doesn't sit. When she feels me tenting her fur she walks away. She's totally happy though for me to poke her with the needle away from the food bowl a few minutes later.

Wondering what kind of syringe you are using. I'm using BD Ultra Fine 31 gauge ⅝ inch/8 mm needle, which in theory the cat shouldn't feel too much.
Click to expand...

I'm glad you're having success with your routine. That's great that you found something that works. I do think we're slowly getting better at it too. Just not quite figured out.

I am currently using Brandzig 29G 1/2". I don't think I'd be able to do a higher gauge. I actually had a 29G needle bend trying to push it in. Buddy has been through a lot as a feral and has very thick skin in places. I'm a bit bummed because I'd love to be able to use 31G. Can't find any 29G with half unit measurements and short needles either.
 
Mariette said:
Can't find any 29G with half unit measurements and short needles either
Click to expand...
I found these on adwdiabetes.com (29g w/ 1/2 unit markings) - https://www.adwdiabetes.com/product/1289/monoject-ultra-comfort-u100-syringes-29g-3-10cc-1-2in-100ct

If you like your syringes, you can also use calipers for fine dosing - here's a post on it (link) and lots of us use calipers to reduce the variation on syringe line markings - I use my ipad for the lightbox and jeweler glasses to magnify.

Hope Buddy gets used the shots :cat:
 
Also, I know you said Buddy is on a diet but he's also unregulated diabetic so can't efficiently use calories - I think I read cats need up to 1.5x-2x their normal food when unregulated.

Maybe someone with more experience can look over your situation and SS and give some thoughts - @Wendy&Neko @tiffmaxee - maybe Wendy or Elise can stop by when they are on the board next.
 
JaxBenji said:
I found these on adwdiabetes.com (29g w/ 1/2 unit markings) - https://www.adwdiabetes.com/product/1289/monoject-ultra-comfort-u100-syringes-29g-3-10cc-1-2in-100ct

If you like your syringes, you can also use calipers for fine dosing - here's a post on it (link) and lots of us use calipers to reduce the variation on syringe line markings - I use my ipad for the lightbox and jeweler glasses to magnify.

Hope Buddy gets used the shots :cat:
Click to expand...

Thank you so much for the advice and tracking those syringes down for us! I'm definitely going to try those.
 
JaxBenji said:
Also, I know you said Buddy is on a diet but he's also unregulated diabetic so can't efficiently use calories - I think I read cats need up to 1.5x-2x their normal food when unregulated.

Maybe someone with more experience can look over your situation and SS and give some thoughts - @Wendy&Neko @tiffmaxee - maybe Wendy or Elise can stop by when they are on the board next.
Click to expand...

That's what I'm afraid of.. that he's not getting enough food because of the diabetes. I had posted about that last week, but I think I stuffed too many questions in one thread:
https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/changing-insulin-needle-sizes-food-dance.239455/

I wish I could just let him free feed but his weight really is a concern. He can't clean his own butt anymore so now I'm really playing mommy wiping his butt and making sure he stays clean. He went from 14 to 18 pounds from April to November. I feel really awful that I let that happen. :(

His food for today for example:
AM: 1 Tiki Cat After Dark Chicken & Duck
During day in small portions: 1 Weruvia Steak Frites + 1 Weruvia Chicken Frick A Zee
PM: 1 Tiki Cat After Dark Chicken & Beef
Late night snack: 1 Sheba Perfect Portions Chicken pate

I do use the Fancy Feast pates as well but he vacuums up that can so quickly and that's bam 100 calories already. The Tiki Cat and Weruvia he munches on a bit longer.

I was hoping to reduce more when he starts doing better.
 
Do you add water to his food? It might help Buddy feel more satiated and in the process cry less for food. My cats don’t drink much from the water bowl anymore because I add so much water to their canned food.
 
PerfumedCatMom said:
Do you add water to his food? It might help Buddy feel more satiated and in the process cry less for food. My cats don’t drink much from the water bowl anymore because I add so much water to their canned food.
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I do. I swish some water around in the can after I empty it and then mix that in with the food on the plate. Get it a bit soupy.

Unfortunately he was used to having a bowl of dry out all the time. Initially he didn't eat much of it so it didn't seem like a problem. But I didn't keep great tabs on how much he was eating from that bowl and before the diagnosis he was all about the damn dry. He'd just take a few licks of wet and turn to the dry. So he got used to having some carbs whenever he wanted. I was giving him the Hills sensitive stomach. I'm horrified how high in carbs those are.
 
Does anyone have any thoughts about the dose?
How long to keep at 3 and whether I should increase 0.25 or 0.5 units?
 
Hello and welcome. My girl started on Caninsulin with 29 g needles - she was so much happier with the 31 g ones when we went to Lantus. Barely noticed the shot. Did Buddy used to pull away from the Prozinc shot too? Just asking cause some cats react to the acid base of Lantus and want to eliminate that as a possibility. Once we got to higher doses (high of 8.75 units), the sting did get to Neko too. Maybe something to help you in this post on Testing and Shooting Tips? Is the bevel up?

Today you are seeing Buddy bouncing. It's cycle four after those yellows that probably caused the bounce. Bounces can last up to six cycles, so I'm hoping sometime tomorrow he'll come down for you. I also see a 3s in the units box for the 5th PM. Was that a reduced dose? That can also be a reason for the higher numbers. And if there was a difference in dose, it will impact the depot you are trying to build. Can you post again tomorrow and we can decide on dose change then. It would be by 0.25 units but not sure on timing.
 
Wendy&Neko said:
Hello and welcome. My girl started on Caninsulin with 29 g needles - she was so much happier with the 31 g ones when we went to Lantus. Barely noticed the shot. Did Buddy used to pull away from the Prozinc shot too? Just asking cause some cats react to the acid base of Lantus and want to eliminate that as a possibility. Once we got to higher doses (high of 8.75 units), the sting did get to Neko too. Maybe something to help you in this post on Testing and Shooting Tips? Is the bevel up?

Today you are seeing Buddy bouncing. It's cycle four after those yellows that probably caused the bounce. Bounces can last up to six cycles, so I'm hoping sometime tomorrow he'll come down for you. I also see a 3s in the units box for the 5th PM. Was that a reduced dose? That can also be a reason for the higher numbers. And if there was a difference in dose, it will impact the depot you are trying to build. Can you post again tomorrow and we can decide on dose change then. It would be by 0.25 units but not sure on timing.
Click to expand...

Thank you so much for the feedback Wendy!

Yes, Buddy noticed on the ProZinc as well. It's usually when I try to push the needle in that he flinches and reacts. The needle just sometimes doesn't want to go in so have have to really push. I probably push it too slowly but my confidence is not there yet, especially after the flinches so I back off when he reacts and try a different spot.

I do make sure the bevel is pointing up.

Good to know that he could be bouncing. I got a bit freaked out by the quick drop he had with the yellow numbers and because I was still unsure about the Lantus 3 units dose, I shot a little under 3. I wish I held steady but it's done.

I will post again tomorrow. Thank you!
 
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