? 11/9 Kierra feeding schedule

Diane and Kierra

Member Since 2010
1st post here for Kierra. I was told by the vet to only feed once every 12 hours when Lantus shot given and not in between. I see some posts here of people feeding at other times. Is there something here about this topic? I don't see any in the stickies. Kierra needs to gain some weight too. Thanks.
 
Hi! Welcome :bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug:I'm sure others may be by so leave up your question mark (good job on that btw :). @tiffmaxee do you have time to pop in here with a new member?

I also used to feed two meals but then learned it's easier on the kitty's pancreas to process smaller meals. So I feed half of "breakfast" at Jax's shot time and then do snacks throughout the day. I do the same at dinner and use an autofeeder to feed small snacks during the night. It's also important to not feed two hours before insulin time so that the pres-shot test is not food influenced - the idea is to make sure it's safe to give insulin (there are a few exceptions to this - like if kitty is in low numbers we would feed no matter what time it was).

Also, great job on home testing :bighug: To keep Kierra safe, you will want to test before administering insulin every single time - on your SS these are the AMPS (AM Pre-Shot) and PMPS (PM Pre-Shot) tests. Basically, you're insuring Kierra is high enough to shoot.

If you are open to reading about dosing methods used by a lot of members here, they are in this sticky.

Hope that helps some :bighug:
 
Welcome. I see you are home testing and have set up a spreadsheet. Kudos to you. I wonder if you have been given the correct starting dose. Have you always fed low carb food or was there a diet change? How much does Kierra weigh? Is she at her ideal weight or need to increase or decrease?
Most of us find feeding mini meals evens out the cycles but try to feed the bulk of the food during the first half of each cycle. Have a look at our dosing methods. All the yellow stickies at the top of this forum are worth reading. It’s a lot to learn but we will help you along the way. Lantus is a depot drug so the depot needs to build to see what a dose will do. Increases and decreases are based upon the lowest point in the cycles and for us depend upon which method you choose to follow.
 
With the older insulins that were very fast acting, it was important to feed a good meal before the insulin took effect. Hence the guideline with those insulins to feed twice a day. However Lantus is a much gentler insulin with a slower easier onset. Not all vets are as familiar with Lantus and will often suggest the twice a day meals because that is what they are used to. If you look at human diabetics, they too are recommended to eat smaller more frequent meals, so as the not overwhelm the pancreas. We even have some people here whose cats are grazers, and that works too.

Feeding more frequently will also help Kierra gain weight.
 
Thank you, I think I will try more frequent meals. Vet said to up dose to 2.5 units - will start that tonight. I updated the spreadsheet up to current time. May be too soon to discern any patterns plus my testing has been sporadic. I was running out of strips but have more now and also not sure the best approach for testing.

I found this (not sure how to find post #15?) by Jill and Alex:

As I described in post #15: "when using food to manipulate the curve, i generally recommend starting with dividing up the normal amount of food your kitty should be eating into 8 mini-meals to be fed at preshot, +1, +2, and +3 of each cycle. however, that recommendation is strictly a starting point. a plan customized for YOUR cat is YOUR goal. frequent testing and learning how YOUR cat responds not only to food, but to the insulin itself will help you tweak the plan."

Is this a good way to start trying to use food to manipulate the curve? What would be a good testing schedule? From the limited testing I have done, it seems her "nadir" is happening sooner than mid-way through the 12 hours between shots. Does that mean anything?

She has lost a lot of muscle mass and needs to gain weight. She was about 16 pounds beginning of October when everything seemed fine, and then lost over 1 pound in about 3 weeks and is now down to 14 pounds. I think her ideal weight is 15-16 pounds. She has mostly eaten canned food. Not sure what constitutes "low carb" but feed a variety of brand canned food like Wellness, Natures Variety, Nulo, Halo, Tiki, Whole Earth, Weruva, Merrick, Koha. Is it ok to give such a big variety? She eats just about anything. I am thinking I can easily transition her to raw. I feed raw a few meals a week but not all the time.
 
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Yes. I did similar with Max. He ate at preshot+2 and then the next two were dependent on his BG. If she starts to drop too fast or too low you will need to feed her at different times.

I can’t yet tell her nadir from your testing thus far. Get some more tests at times you haven’t tested at yet. Maybe do a curve over the weekend testing every 2-3 hours and grab a later test at night.
 
I wonder if you have been given the correct starting dose. Have you always fed low carb food or was there a diet change? How much does Kierra weigh? Is she at her ideal weight or need to increase or decrease?
I don't know if the starting dose is correct, it is what the vet recommended. How would I know if it is not correct? She pretty much eats LC canned food and there were no changes in her diet proceeding the diabetes dx. She weighs 14 pounds now but had weighed 16 pounds in early October. She has lost a lot of muscle mass.
 
It's also important to not feed two hours before insulin time so that the pres-shot test is not food influenced - the idea is to make sure it's safe to give insulin (there are a few exceptions to this - like if kitty is in low numbers we would feed no matter what time it was)
I looked at Jax spreadsheet. You started out really low dose. Looking back, would you do anything different now knowing what you know or would you approach it the same way? I see all those high BG numbers in the first 3 months and wonder if you had upped the dose sooner that maybe it would have gotten you to the lower BG numbers that you had in September faster? Also, I see you are testing quite a bit everyday. Why is that? I thought once you know the nadir you can move on to less frequent testing. Are you working toward remission? It looks like you are there! I am trying to learn here so please forgive me the naive questions. Tiff's comment above is asking if the starting dose I was given by the vet (2u) is correct and I have no clue. I also don't know how much experience the vet has with diabetes. I trust the people here more I think since being in the trenches is the real world. The vet has said several times that I don't need to be testing so much - like he thinks it is a bad thing or something. I do worry about poking Kierra's ears so much. I know people say it isn't a problem but I still worry. I have switched to using the insulin needles on the syringes to poke her ears (maller than the lancets I have) and they make very tiny punctures on the ear (they are U100 29G) and I can't see much of a mark left from them. I am also following it up by rubbing fresh aloe vera on the ears. Anyway, I would appreciate any advice as I don't have much experience with all this. The reason I joined this forum about 14 years ago was because a vet mis-diagnosed my cat with diabetes. Once I found this forum, learned how to test and got a meter, I figured out he wasn't diabetic at all. Still makes me angry thinking about it. I put my cat through hell injecting insulin when he didn't need it. Well, sorry for such a long post and thanks for your help.
 
Hi Diane :bighug: Keep asking questions. You'll find a good path for Kierra :bighug:

Looking back, would you do anything different now knowing what you know or would you approach it the same way?
Those first two months were on a pet meter (alphatrak) and following my vet's advice. He wasn't pushy just knew minimal about feline diabetes but I knew even less so I just did what he said. If I were to anything different, it would have been to post on this site sooner, read the dosing methods, and start relying on advice from people here who have seen hundreds of diabetic cats. I also switched to a human meter and saved $$.

upped the dose sooner
Maybe. But increasing the dose needs to be done safely - 0.25 increments are recommended so one doesn't "pass by" the good dose. If you notice in my SS, I started posting here 08/22/20 and it was recommended I increase 0.25 - so I did on 08/23. Jax ultimately had three more increases before getting to a good dose (2.25u) for him. If I had increased by half units, I would have skipped by this dose. Also, I was able to increase safely because I had the data to do so. Testing and entering data in the SS is super key.

Also, I see you are testing quite a bit everyday. Why is that?
I test more than is required by Tight Regulation - Jax is so easy to test and I just test every time I feed him. I'm also home and can do it. Also, when he was on little higher doses, he'd sometimes dive down to lower numbers without much warning so I'd try to catch him doing that...for me, I tried keeping him on a dose as long as possible so I could help retrain the liver-pancreas team.

Tiff's comment above is asking if the starting dose I was given by the vet (2u) is correct and I have no clue.
I wouldn't worry about this too much - if you're willing to get help from the board then you'll find the dose for what Kierra needs.

I trust the people here more I think since being in the trenches is the real world.
I agree here - I heard someone describe this board a big case study.

I am also following it up by rubbing fresh aloe vera on the ears.
I'm sure this is fine - a lot of us on the board use Neosporin with pain relief (I use Targets version). I personally wipe it off before testing and then will reapply afterwards. Also, I've put hundreds of holes in Jax's ears and he's a-okay :cat:

Hope my responses help some - hang in there, you'll figure this out :bighug:
 
I thought once you know the nadir
I forgot to respond to this one :p Nadir can and does move around. Even just looking at Jax's SS and looking at when he dropped below 50 (bright green), that shifted around some. I've always thought Jax's nadir to be in the +3 to +5 range but he has dipped below 50 at +4,+5,+12,+2, and +8. Don't you love cats :cat::p?
 
Wellness, Natures Variety, Nulo, Halo, Tiki, Whole Earth, Weruva, Merrick, Koha
You just want to check the carb content. Several of those brands post carbs as part of their nutrient info on their website. A lot of us refer to Dr. Pierson's cat food list - linked here - I personally check that list and then see if I can find info on the manufactures site incase the formula has changed since the food list was published.

ETA - generally speaking:
  • Low Carb (LC) 0-10%
  • Medium Carb (MC) 11-15%
  • High Carb (HC) 16+%
Feed LC as the main source of food and use MC and HC as needed when glucose numbers drop.
 
You have gotten a look of good information from Susanne. I would increase to 2.25 You can often get the more current carb % on chewy.com and tanyascrf.org. . Tanyas is a kidney site so the order of tge foods listed is by phosphorus % but it’s current and most list the carb .%.
 
Please have a look at the methods used here. Judging from your questions I wonder if TR will be the one for you but read both.
 
But increasing the dose needs to be done safely - 0.25 increments are recommended so one doesn't "pass by" the good dose.

I'm sure this is fine - a lot of us on the board use Neosporin with pain relief (I use Targets version). I personally wipe it off before testing and then will reapply afterwards. Also, I've put hundreds of holes in Jax's ears and he's a-okay

The U100 syringes I got from the vet only have 1 unit marks and I am finding even doing the 2.5 unit is challenging. I think I need to switch to syringes with 1/4 markings. Oops, just noticed there are only syringes that go down to 1/2 markings. I will order some. What do you use for poking the ear?
 
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You just want to check the carb content. Several of those brands post carbs as part of their nutrient info on their website. A lot of us refer to Dr. Pierson's cat food list - linked here - I personally check that list and then see if I can find info on the manufactures site incase the formula has changed since the food list was published.
I think the ones I am using are LC but I will double check them. I am thinking about going raw with her as she likes raw and I have been putting it off for a long time and kicking myself I haven't done it already.
 
They don’t make syringes with quarter unit markings, only half unit. That’s why many use digital calipers.
Oh my! Well, I may have to add this to my list of things to do - get caliber, light table, and magnifying glass. With such tiny dosing, it does seem necessary. My head is spinning. :bookworm:
 
1/2 markings.
Really any syringe with 1/2 unit markings works but there are a couple of links in the Insulin Care & Syringe Info sticky. I order mine the Sure Comfort ones ADW (link below).


What do you use for poking the ear?
I use a lancet (spring loaded needle). My personal one is by alphatrak but that's only because I bought the alphatrak starter kit when I started testing Jax (I've since switched to a human meter). You do want a 28g or 29g lancet needle (lower number, bigger needle, better chance at getting a good sized droplet). Some people freehand poke

with just the needle.

Oh my! Well, I may have to add this to my list of things to do - get caliber, light table, and magnifying glass. With such tiny dosing, it does seem necessary. My head is spinning. :bookworm:
@tiffmaxee and I were discussing on another condo of using a "flashlight" app on a tablet instead of using a light table. This is what I do. And I use jeweler magnifying glasses to free up my hands - link here. The app on my ipad I use is called "MyLight" (and was free!). Here's a pic - mimics a light table.
IMG_5647.jpg
 

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Really any syringe with 1/2 unit markings works but there are a couple of links in the Insulin Care & Syringe Info sticky. I order mine the Sure Comfort ones ADW (link below).

Do you have the caliber measurements for the sure comfort ones?

I use a lancet (spring loaded needle). My personal one is by alphatrak but that's only because I bought the alphatrak starter kit when I started testing Jax (I've since switched to a human meter). You do want a 28g or 29g lancet needle (lower number, bigger needle, better chance at getting a good sized droplet). Some people freehand poke with just the needle.

Do you poke just around the outside of the ear or do you also poke other areas of the ear? Do you poke only on the fur side (outside) of the ear?
 
I was looking for the link Elise posted :) I poke on the inside too (yay black cats!). I pretty much stay in the sweet spot but I know some people move around more...I just find Jax's ears too thin other places.

sweetspot.JPG


And yes my caliper measurements for SureComfort are on a tab on my SS. Feel free to look. I put the bottom of my top caliper where the plastic in the barrel stops. Similar to the Terumo syringe in the calipers post.
 

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I know some people move around more...I just find Jax's ears too thin other places.

And yes my caliper measurements for SureComfort are on a tab on my SS.

Thanks!

If you get a chance to look at Kierra's spreadsheet, I would appreciate any suggestions. I think the numbers are better since I have been feeding every hour for the first 6 hours of shooting. I have ordered an auto feeder so it will make that an easier task. I am thinking I need to up the dose another 0.5 units. Also, let me know if you think I need to do more testing. 6x a day seems like a lot already but I can do more testing once in a while for a more complete picture. Also, do people here test for ketones? I don't see much info about it. I do have a ketone meter that I have used when I do fasting.
 
Are you going to follow SLGS or TR? Either way you need to go up another .50. Yes, you should test for ketones. Have you had a chance to read the dosing methods we use here? I think y doing a good job of testing. :)
 
Are you going to follow SLGS or TR? Either way you need to go up another .50. Yes, you should test for ketones. Have you had a chance to read the dosing methods we use here? I think y doing a good job of testing. :)
I am still figuring things out at this point. I will probably try TR, IDK. What is a good schedule for testing ketones? The meter strips are $1 each so that can get expensive. I have urine strips too.

Where do we put ketone numbers on the SS?
 
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And yes my caliper measurements for SureComfort are on a tab on my SS. Feel free to look. I put the bottom of my top caliper where the plastic in the barrel stops.

Do you have numbers for above 1.75u? I ordered some before I looked at your caliber numbers. :confused:
 
Do you have numbers for above 1.75u? I ordered some before I looked at your caliber numbers. :confused:
You just need to do math to get the measurement you need. The 1u measurement doubled is 2u. The 1u measurement halved is 0.5u. If you need 2u, then you double the measurement for the 1u. If you haven't already, I'd read through the caliper post (linked here) - that's what I read to understand how to use them and how to calculate my measurements.

Remember, the idea of calipers is that your increases and decreases are proportionate with less error than eyeballing with the lines on the syringe.

Also - this post is getting long :) This board likes to do one post per day and then you can link to your previous post for continuity. So next time you post, start a new condo and then you can include a link back to this one.
 
I put the bottom of my top caliper where the plastic in the barrel stops. Similar to the Terumo syringe in the calipers post.
I am sorry if I should be starting a new post for this but hoping it is ok to reply? I got a caliper from Harbor Freight yesterday. So when you say "where the plastic in the barrel stops", does this picture of the terumo show that (from the link you posted)? It is where the plunger meets the end and can't go any further closed, right?
d6e8e747-ceff-48a6-952d-f29d6010afa8-png.48538
 
I am sorry if I should be starting a new post for this but hoping it is ok to reply? I got a caliper from Harbor Freight yesterday. So when you say "where the plastic in the barrel stops", does this picture of the terumo show that (from the link you posted)? It is where the plunger meets the end and can't go any further closed, right?
Yes to your question and yes to a new post (for next time :))! You can always tag people if you want to ask them a specific question by using the "@" and writing their screen name (e.g., I would be @JaxBenji ).

If you are open to dosing advice, I would start a new condo (e.g., if it's today, it would be 12/03 Kierra - Dosing Advice Needed) and put a question in there about dosing. I don't give dosing advice personally but do recommend you review the Dosing Methods if you are open to using one of them.

Hope that helps and hope to see you on a new condo :cat:
 
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