? 10/13 - Last UPDATE + 6 - 112, +4 - 166!! Starting to worry! +2 - 242, Apollo PMBS 318

[Mile Hi Dave]

I am thinking I experienced a "bounce". Last nite he went UP from +3 of 378 to a +6 of 410, now this morning 6 hours later he was back down to 377, which actually pleases me because it's less than 400!! I gave him a unit and will check multiple times throughout the day. Hope it was the right way to go. See the last post for update

 

[teresazu]

Great job getting numbers on the PM side, I'm not so good at that!

I also wonder when it's a bounce or not enough insulin, hard to tell. Also when the preshot numbers are under 200, I've never gotten a straight answer on that either. will be watching to see what the experts have to say about Apollo

 

[Nan & Amber (GA)]

It can be hard to see patterns at first, but what you saw last night is definitely consistent with him having bounced from those blues the other day. If that's what is going on, there's no telling how long he'll stay up (bounces can last up to three days, but they can also be much shorter, so ). All you can do is exactly what you're doing, keep an eye on his BG and see where he goes from here!

 

[Mile Hi Dave]

Thanks for the reassurance!

 

[Mile Hi Dave]

So, we started the morning at 377 and +2 dropped to 335, not much, but it's dropping.

 

[Jan D & Squeaky]

Hey Dave, I've been on the lantus board for about a month. It took me the first month to understand what was going on and how the board actually works. Now that I get it, I'm starting to learn who the people are and read experiences of other cat parents. So last night I read your thread. I would like to share a bit with you..... about the lantus board, it is very different from this one.

At first I was surprised people were telling me about titles, etc. and what to do. Then I realized, they were giving me instructions about how they could best help me. So I followed their instructions to the letter and everything is going great. I'm learning what I need to do to best help my cat and I have some of the best support on the planet for this. Those folks, really understand the subtleties, nuances AND they really want to help.

Yah I get you are upset. Your cat is not well. It's scary. However your response..... To me it sounds like you were attacking or shooting at the helicopter that is trying to bring supplies to save your life. Yah you're hungry now but they are bringing supplies for a month.

Or like you are shooting yourself in the foot by not following their suggestions for using the board. Shooting the messenger, maybe. Well you couldn't hear what they were trying to tell you, for how to help your cat for the long term.

I wish your cat does well and I hope you can experience some calm and come back and learn from these wonderful people.

 

[Mile Hi Dave]

Hey Dave, I've been on the lantus board for about a month. It took me the first month to understand what was going on and how the board actually works. Now that I get it, I'm starting to learn who the people are and read experiences of other cat parents. So last night I read your thread. I would like to share a bit with you..... about the lantus board, it is very different from this one.

At first I was surprised people were telling me about titles, etc. and what to do. Then I realized, they were giving me instructions about how they could best help me. So I followed their instructions to the letter and everything is going great. I'm learning what I need to do to best help my cat and I have some of the best support on the planet for this. Those folks, really understand the subtleties, nuances AND they really want to help.

Yah I get you are upset. Your cat is not well. It's scary. However your response..... To me it sounds like you were attacking or shooting at the helicopter that is trying to bring supplies to save your life. Yah you're hungry now but they are bringing supplies for a month.

Or like you are shooting yourself in the foot by not following their suggestions for using the board. Shooting the messenger, maybe. Well you couldn't hear what they were trying to tell you, for how to help your cat for the long term.

I wish your cat does well and I hope you can experience some calm and come back and learn from these wonderful people.

That's ok, I'm done with posting OR responding in the Lantus forum. I didn't come here to be PUBLICLY dressed down. You want to criticize someone, do it via PM. I have had multiple messages, here, on FB and via messenger, from folks that feel the same way. Several simply left, 1 says she won't post anymore, she just comes to read posts and learn. I understand the format of the title can be important but, is it more important then helping the person with their cat? Especially for new people who are already confused, scared, overwhelmed and desperate to help their animal. The last thing needed is a distraction from taking care of their cat, the REAL priority of this board. Some leniency and a private message AFTER the crises is over is a far better way to handle it. Nobody should be made to feel embarrassed or disrespected by posting the error of their ways PUBLICLY.

 

[Mile Hi Dave]

So at +4 he only dropped 10 points, but he's still dropping!, Next update at +6. Hoping to check every 2 hours all day til +6 this PM, 18 hours of updates. I hope that's ok with everyone. I just want lots of eyes and opinions as I go YOU folks are the experts!!

 

[Nan & Amber (GA)]

Sounds good!

These numbers are pretty flat so far, so if he hasn't dropped significantly by +6, you can probably take a break on the +8 and +10. The thing about bounces is that when they're in them they're in them, they don't do much, so it's good to conserve your energy (and strips!) for dealing with when the bounces break!

 

[Jan D & Squeaky]

That's ok, I'm done with posting OR responding in the Lantus forum. I didn't come here to be PUBLICLY dressed down. You want to criticize someone, do it via PM. I have had multiple messages, here, on FB and via messenger, from folks that feel the same way. Several simply left, 1 says she won't post anymore, she just comes to read posts and learn. I understand the format of the title can be important but, is it more important then helping the person with their cat? Especially for new people who are already confused, scared, overwhelmed and desperate to help their animal. The last thing needed is a distraction from taking care of their cat, the REAL priority of this board. Some leniency and a private message AFTER the crises is over is a far better way to handle it. Nobody should be made to feel embarrassed or disrespected by posting the error of their ways PUBLICLY.

Hi Dave, the title is a means of communicating the exact status of your cat, IN REAL TIME, so people can help you IN REAL TIME.

They asked you to fix the title so they could keep up with what is happening with your cat. It is the communication method. They can catch what's happening in 3 seconds, so they know what's going on. It IS the way of helping you with your cat.

You keep updating your title, and then everyone can follow along, with a quick glance, to see how your cat is doing.

Are you taking their instruction for using the board so they can help you, as an insult? As putting you down? It is not a criticism, it is instruction so they can help you better. I think you need to rethink this and see this differently.

I hope so, for the sake of your animal.

It's also okay, for you to be done with the lantus board. Best wishes to you.

Cheers, Jan

 

[Mile Hi Dave]

Sounds good!

These numbers are pretty flat so far, so if he hasn't dropped significantly by +6, you can probably take a break on the +8 and +10. The thing about bounces is that when they're in them they're in them, they don't do much, so it's good to conserve your energy (and strips!) for dealing with when the bounces break!

Just ordered 200 strips. . I was guessing about a bounce. This was only his 3rd dose of Lantus, can a bounce happen that fast? I'll do one more an hour preshot to see if he's still going down or up, like he should be. Either way, unless he drops into the 100s again, he'll get one unit again this PM. That's what I should do, right?

 

[Mile Hi Dave]

Hi Dave, the title is a means of communicating the exact status of your cat, IN REAL TIME, so people can help you IN REAL TIME.

They asked you to fix the title so they could keep up with what is happening with your cat. It is the communication method. They can catch what's happening in 3 seconds, so they know what's going on. It IS the way of helping you with your cat.

You keep updating your title, and then everyone can follow along, with a quick glance, to see how your cat is doing.

Are you taking their instruction for using the board so they can help you, as an insult? As putting you down? It is not a criticism, it is instruction so they can help you better. I think you need to rethink this and see this differently.

I hope so, for the sake of your animal.

It's also okay, for you to be done with the lantus board. Best wishes to you.

Cheers, Jan

I'm done trying to explain myself. It's simple, the last thing a person making their 2nd post is grief from another member of the board. They're scared, overwhelmed, confused, stressed and a whole host of other uncomfortable feelings. Their priority is the cat. Having made my position clear on this, I have received multiple messages here and on FB from folks that felt the same way and just left, they got chased away by someone, well intentioned or not, that decided berating, dressing them down publicly was more important. Not everyone handles criticism the same way. One girl told me she's still reading posts, but she's scared to post because she got her "head bit off" for an improperly formatted title and doesn't want it to happen again.

The solution to this is very very simple... NO PUBLIC HOUSEKEEPING MESSAGES! Send a PM, AFTER the person's animal is taken care of and that person has had a chance to catch their breathe. There is absolutely NO good reason to call someone out in public!!

 

[Nan & Amber (GA)]

Just ordered 200 strips. . I was guessing about a bounce. This was only his 3rd dose of Lantus, can a bounce happen that fast? I'll do one more an hour preshot to see if he's still going down or up, like he should be. Either way, unless he drops into the 100s again, he'll get one unit again this PM. That's what I should do, right?

Yup, stick with the 1U dose for at least three days to let the depot fill. If you get an unexpectedly low number at pre-shot, post here for feedback. We'll definitely be looking at the +11 if you get that, if not we'll probably ask for a "stall", in which you get another test in 20-30mins (without feeding yet). What we'll want to look at is the direction-- since each new shot of Lantus takes a couple hours before it starts working, in a way you're really shooting the number in two hours. Getting the two tests a short time apart helps us predict whether that later number will be safe to shoot now, if that makes any sense .

And to answer your question, bounces can happen right at the start, yes! It's only indirectly a response to the insulin, so it really doesn't matter how long he's been on lantus. What matter is that he hit low numbers that his body wasn't used to, provoking a reaction. The bounce is just his body panicking a little about seeing lower-than-usual BG and dumping sugars in response.

 

[Mile Hi Dave]

Yup, stick with the 1U dose for at least three days to let the depot fill. If you get an unexpectedly low number at pre-shot, post here for feedback. We'll definitely be looking at the +11 if you get that, if not we'll probably ask for a "stall", in which you get another test in 20-30mins (without feeding yet). What we'll want to look at is the direction-- since each new shot of Lantus takes a couple hours before it starts working, in a way you're really shooting the number in two hours. Getting the two tests a short time apart helps us predict whether that later number will be safe to shoot now, if that makes any sense .

And to answer your question, bounces can happen right at the start, yes! It's only indirectly a response to the insulin, so it really doesn't matter how long he's been on lantus. What matter is that he hit low numbers that his body wasn't used to, provoking a reaction. The bounce is just his body panicking a little about seeing lower-than-usual BG and dumping sugars in response.

Thanks alot for confirming my thoughts. Always feels better when I'm not the only one on the page. Also, a +11 will be coming in 2 hours and 40 minutes.

 

[jt and trouble (GA)]

Hi Dave, You just keep posting where you feel comfortable ok? We just want your kitty to be safe and healthy we DONT want you to feel anymore stress than you already have. Having your best buddy sick is hard enough. Passion flows freely here, more so for some than others. Whats that phrase? It takes a village? Well this is one heck of village and we aim to get every kitty on the right path to being their old self again.
You ARE welcomed here. Apollo needs you here. We LIKE that you are here.
jeanne

 

[Mile Hi Dave]

Hi Dave, You just keep posting where you feel comfortable ok? We just want your kitty to be safe and healthy we DONT want you to feel anymore stress than you already have. Having your best buddy sick is hard enough. Passion flows freely here, more so for some than others. Whats that phrase? It takes a village? Well this is one heck of village and we aim to get every kitty on the right path to being their old self again.
You ARE welcomed here. Apollo needs you here. We LIKE that you are here.
jeanne

THANK YOU!!!

 

[Mile Hi Dave]

So, only a 2 point drop in 7 hours, we'll see what the PMPS brings, but it looks like I'll be safe with 1 unit again. So, what if it drop in the next hour, instead of rising or staying flat? Do I hold off for the 20-30 minutes previously mentioned? Or, am I good as long as it doesn't drastically drop? I really don't expect it to, I expect a rise of at least a few points or it stays flat.

 

[Nan & Amber (GA)]

I think you can just shoot the 1.0U as long as his pre-shot is at least 250 (note: usually we say 200, but I'm factoring in the fact that that would represent a pretty significant drop from where he is now and bumping that up for this pre-shot).

I'd also get one or two more tests tonight, just to make sure he's not planning any funny business tonight. He's been pretty steady all day, but you never know! If he stays in pinks or high yellows, you can go to bed and sleep well.

 

[Mile Hi Dave]

I think you can just shoot the 1.0U as long as his pre-shot is at least 250 (note: usually we say 200, but I'm factoring in the fact that that would represent a pretty significant drop from where he is now and bumping that up for this pre-shot).

I'd also get one or two more tests tonight, just to make sure he's not planning any funny business tonight. He's been pretty steady all day, but you never know! If he stays in pinks or high yellows, you can go to bed and sleep well.

I will definitely test at least every 2 hours before going to bed.

 

[Mile Hi Dave]

So, it was still really flat, but went down another 5 points, gave him 1 unit , gonna check his BS again at +2 and +4, which will be 11PM. Hopefully numbers will be ok, didn't sleep much last night.

 

[Nan & Amber (GA)]

Hopefully a calm night. Don't stress over small differences at the +2 and +4, if he's going to make a serious dive tonight it'll probably be obvious, not little dips. And don't forget, we still don't even know whether these pink numbers are due to a bounce or not enough insulin; we have to wait until the depot is filled and we're clear of the max bounce time to really make that call. If it's not enough insulin, you'll definitely have a calm night and get some zzzzz's!

And in case you're wondering, the magic number is 10-14 cycles (5-7 days) that we have to wait before making that call (although we'll probably have a good idea before then) and start thinking about dose changes. It takes that long for the body to first adjust to the new insulin, establish the depot, and work out the initial kinks. Later on, you can make assessments and dose adjustments on a faster schedule, but this first stage takes some patience.

Apollo sure is a gorgeous cat! I love Bengals, I have never had one (other than a "mutt" that we were pretty sure had a little bit in the mix based on his appearance and personality), but they are just the most amazing cats.

 

[Nan & Amber (GA)]

I meant to say also, I'm logging off for the evening now so there won't be any more replies from me, but I'm sure there will be folks around tonight if you need help. Changing the title (making sure to also add a new reply to bump the thread to the top of the list) is a good way to attract attention.

That said, I'm thinking it'll be a quiet night. I'll definitely check in in the morning to see how you guys got on-- good luck, and sleep well!

 

[teresazu]

Hey Dave, I've been on the lantus board for about a month. It took me the first month to understand what was going on and how the board actually works. Now that I get it, I'm starting to learn who the people are and read experiences of other cat parents. So last night I read your thread. I would like to share a bit with you..... about the lantus board, it is very different from this one.

At first I was surprised people were telling me about titles, etc. and what to do. Then I realized, they were giving me instructions about how they could best help me. So I followed their instructions to the letter and everything is going great. I'm learning what I need to do to best help my cat and I have some of the best support on the planet for this. Those folks, really understand the subtleties, nuances AND they really want to help.

Yah I get you are upset. Your cat is not well. It's scary. However your response..... To me it sounds like you were attacking or shooting at the helicopter that is trying to bring supplies to save your life. Yah you're hungry now but they are bringing supplies for a month.

Or like you are shooting yourself in the foot by not following their suggestions for using the board. Shooting the messenger, maybe. Well you couldn't hear what they were trying to tell you, for how to help your cat for the long term.

I wish your cat does well and I hope you can experience some calm and come back and learn from these wonderful people.

I don't see how that answered Dave's question or offered help at all, and it seems totally inappropriate to bring up a thread of last night, whch has nothing to do with this post? This is a perfect example of the problem he and others mention encountering.

 

[Mile Hi Dave]

Hopefully a calm night. Don't stress over small differences at the +2 and +4, if he's going to make a serious dive tonight it'll probably be obvious, not little dips. And don't forget, we still don't even know whether these pink numbers are due to a bounce or not enough insulin; we have to wait until the depot is filled and we're clear of the max bounce time to really make that call. If it's not enough insulin, you'll definitely have a calm night and get some zzzzz's!

And in case you're wondering, the magic number is 10-14 cycles (5-7 days) that we have to wait before making that call (although we'll probably have a good idea before then) and start thinking about dose changes. It takes that long for the body to first adjust to the new insulin, establish the depot, and work out the initial kinks. Later on, you can make assessments and dose adjustments on a faster schedule, but this first stage takes some patience.

Apollo sure is a gorgeous cat! I love Bengals, I have never had one (other than a "mutt" that we were pretty sure had a little bit in the mix based on his appearance and personality), but they are just the most amazing cats.

For some reason I was thinking 7-10 days. Yeah, he's a pretty amazing animal. Best $800 for a fixed cat I ever spent. Super intelligent, heck he's already understanding when I put him in my lap a certain way, that his ear is getting poked. He puts his face in my hand so his eyes are covered, like I turn my head when I get a shot, he hears the meter telling me his number and jumps out of my lap and goes straight to where I keep his treats, knowing he has some coming. He plays fetch, swims, not just in kiddy pools. He's even gone swimming in a lake with me. He gets in the shower. He "stalks"me and when I turn and catch him, he turns himself sideways, arches his back and stands on his "toes" to make himself appear large. He walks on a leash and even goes off leash when I know no dogs are around. Not that they would fare well. An old neighbor had a cocker spaniel and Apollo was out in the yard on his leash line and the cocker got loose. Next thing I know Ken's knocking on my door with a $1200 vet bill for a punctured nasal passage, 22 stitches in it's lip and a pretty good gash across the face. Ken thought I should pay half. I told him his dog was off leash in my yard where my cat was tied up, take me to court. Needless to say, he wasn't to friendly after that.

 

[Mile Hi Dave]

Ok, got a drop I'm still comfortable with from the PMPS of 318 to a +2 of 242. Still plan on checking again in 2 hours to make sure he's not dropping a bunch. If he drops into the 100's by then, I'll be having another long nite. Anyone think I need to check more?

 

[Chris & China (GA)]

Nope, sounds like a purrfect plan!

 

[Mile Hi Dave]

Nope, sounds like a purrfect plan!

Thank you!

 

[Mile Hi Dave]

OH no, it looks like it's going to be another long nite. Apollo dropped almost 80 points in the last 2 hours!! Looks like I have to stay up to, at least, his +6. Am I right to be so concerned?? It seems like tonite that every 2 hours he's dropping close to 80 points. If he does that again, at +6 he'll be in the 80's, which really worries me.

 

[Mile Hi Dave]

I meant to say also, I'm logging off for the evening now so there won't be any more replies from me, but I'm sure there will be folks around tonight if you need help. Changing the title (making sure to also add a new reply to bump the thread to the top of the list) is a good way to attract attention.

That said, I'm thinking it'll be a quiet night. I'll definitely check in in the morning to see how you guys got on-- good luck, and sleep well!

Bump thread??

 

[Mile Hi Dave]

It slowed, his +6 was 112, only a 50 point drop vs the 80 points at +2 and +4. Gonna take a chance and sleep for 5 hours so I can check him an hour before his AMPS test, so I can make sure he's going back up when I check his AMPS.

 

[Nan & Amber (GA)]

Oh my goodness Apollo! Look what you did!

Well, I think we got our answer about those pinks-- it was not a "not enough insulin" situation, it was a bounce. You're getting some good information here, this dose is bringing him down to some nice numbers and he doesn't bounce for long.

Now as long as he behaves himself for the rest of the cycle!

 

[jt and trouble (GA)]

Well done Dave!