Continued help for Ernest's dosing

Discussion in 'Prozinc / PZI' started by Ja', Sep 13, 2020.

  1. Ja'

    Ja' Member

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  2. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    If he were my cat I would do 2.5 starting tomorrow. I think you are stuck in some glucose toxicity and won't see much movement until you hit that breakthrough dose, then it will start coming down.
     
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  3. Ja'

    Ja' Member

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    @Deb & Wink @Panic

    2.5u starting tomorrow? or 1 more day?
    He's all over the place.... this is exhausting...

    Thank you!
     
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  4. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    I think you need to "fast track" the dose increases.
    1 more day is only going to leave Ernest in the pinks and reds with only the occasional yellow BG number.

    My recommendation is to bump the dose up to 2.5U, ASAP.

    Yes, Ernest's BG numbers are "all over the place" but still quite high most of the time. You have plenty of room to increase the dose, and still keep him safe.
    You want to be seeing blues and greens, not those "Ugly" reds and pinks.

    (I've never personally cared for pink, except in some flowers like the phlox that are blooming in my garden right now.)
     
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  5. Ja'

    Ja' Member

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    @Deb & Wink @Panic @JanetNJ

    So 2 days at 2.5 hasn't done anything really.... go up again in the morning?? 2.75 or skip to 3?
    Thank you!
     
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  6. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    I'd increase in the AM cycle. To 2.75U.
     
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  7. Ja'

    Ja' Member

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    Sounds good, thank you!
     
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  8. Ja'

    Ja' Member

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    @Deb & Wink
    No difference today :-(
    It makes me very sad to see his personality change so much. He's so food aggressive.
    I want my chill boy back .....
     
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  9. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    If he's so food aggressive, it may be because he isn't getting enough to eat.
    How food aggressive is he? Would you give us some examples of his behavior.

    You'll probably need to try some behavior modification techniques with him.
    For example, if it's only when you go to the kitchen, that he is food aggressive, try to substitute some play time or a grooming session for the food.
     
  10. Ja'

    Ja' Member

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    Only in the kitchen.
    He literally attacks me while I'm getting his food. He will bite me as I'm putting it down in front of him. He scratches my leg and has even bitten my leg.
    He's currently eating 3 cans of friskies and a handful of cooked chicken cubes a day.
    He was really bad in the beginning. He had gotten better but now I'm noticing he's getting worse again.
    I'm hoping once we get his numbers down, he'll calm down too...
     
  11. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Ok, then he may need another fast track increase on the dose. He is staying in the reds and pinks most of the time. This recommendation is aggressive. Really, really aggressive. But if you are ok doing another increase, up the dose to 3U for the next cycle.

    And please. Pretty please with sugar on top. Test at least once more in every PM cycle. That before bed test will help to fill in the missing data in the PM cycle.
    You might even think about setting an alarm, to wake you later in the PM to get another test. Yes, it's no fun at all to get up in the middle of the night to test your cat. But you may need to do that. Be sure to get that "before bed test" every single day, around the +2 to +3 timeframe.

    OK?

    Have you considered getting a timed feeder, to give Ernest an extra meal overnight?
     
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  12. Ja'

    Ja' Member

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    Okay, we increased to 3u! Doesn't seem to make a difference so far......but I'm still hopeful
    We'll def do more night tests.
    We bought a timed feeder and will set it up for tonight and see if that helps! Or actually maybe this weekend I'll get up and test & feed him a couple of times.
    Thank you!!
    ja'
     
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  13. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Some cats just need more insulin until they find that breakthrough dose.
     
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  14. Ja'

    Ja' Member

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    3 pm tests last night.... nothing unusual that I can tell. We'll do our best to keep it up.
    Please let me know when you would like for us to increase again.
    Apparently Ernest doesn't understand "aggressive" insulin increases.

    We're very grateful for your help!!
     
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  15. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Maybe 1 more cycle on the current 3U dose. But not any longer than that.
    The 3U dose is barely making an impact on his BG levels.

    You need to get his BG levels down out of the pinks and reds.
    If you feel like you are able to monitor, than next cycle you could try an increase.
    That would be Saturday, 9/19/20 AM cycle. Or wait until Saturday PM cycle.

    You know your schedule and life responsibilities much better than we ever will.
    So your choice on when to increase the dose again.
    But soon, since he probably doesn't feel good at those high BG levels all the time. Bet he sleeps even more than usual for a cat.

    Is there any food left out, that Ernest could be getting to? Another pet's food? People food left out on the counter? Food dropped on the floor by a "helpful" small child trying to "feed the kitty"? Can he open cabinets in your kitchen and get to food?

    I had Wink chew through a tough plastic bag of Hill's cat food once. It only took him about 2 minutes to get into the bag.
     
  16. Ja'

    Ja' Member

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    It was driving us crazy thinking he must be getting into something. We feed our dogs & other cats in a separate room and take up their dishes when they're finished. We never let him outside. We make sure the kitchen counters are clean and nothing is in the sink...ever! We keep the pantry doors closed and all animal food/treats are keep in those vault containers in the garage. He uses the litter qwitter with no litter (he used to eat the world's best litter-it's made from corn). No children in the house, just me and my husband. My husband works from home and watches him constantly. I work 6am-6pm Mon-Thur so Fri-Sun I'm going to try to get more pm tests.
    We will increase in the morning....3.5?? we can stay home tomorrow & Sunday and test frequently. Thoughts??
    And, yes, Ernest lays on the kitchen rug all day long..... :-(
    Thank you again for all of your time & care!
     
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  17. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    I'd do 3.5 tomorrow
     
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  18. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Ok. But you can likely still run a few errands during the weekend. When else do you have time to grocery shop and such?

    We usually only increase by 0.25U at a time, but those smaller changes are NOT making a difference in Ernest's BG levels.

    But the MPM (Modified Prozinc Method) dosing guidelines do say to increase the dose by 0.5U if the nadirs are > 200 mg/dL.
    So yes, increase the dose to 3.5U for 9/19/20 AM cycle.
     
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  19. Ja'

    Ja' Member

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    Thank you Janet, we love all of the support!
     
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  20. Ja'

    Ja' Member

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    Deb, thank you for your confidence!
    We went to the grocery store today. LOL So we'll be staying home the next 2 days.
    I sure hope this jump does the trick for Ernest! Thank you!
     
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  21. Ja'

    Ja' Member

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    @Deb & Wink @Panic @JanetNJ

    Well, I was worried about him going low!?? He's going higher :-(
    Any idea what's going on??

    Thanks
     
  22. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Makes me wonder if there's something else going on. Dental problems? Infection? Acromegaly? Had he had his teeth checked?
     
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  23. Ja'

    Ja' Member

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    I guess we should revisit that. He had a thorough exam the end of June when he was diagnosed. The only thing wrong in his bloodwork was his Glucose.
    I'll call our vet and schedule another exam. Thanks!
     
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  24. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Sometimes, when you raise the dose, the BG levels go up and not down as expected. We call it NDW (aka New Dose Wonkiness).
    Try to ride it out, and see if it resolves in a few more cycles.

    Tests for IAA (Insulin Auto Antibodies) and acromegaly aren't usually suggested until a cat gets to over 5-6 units for both dosing cycles.

    Hopefully the vet can come up with some other ideas.
     
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  25. Ja'

    Ja' Member

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    Keep going with the 3.5? or increase?

    BTW, my Vet is "old school". He only prescribes Vetsulin (dogs & cats). They did not recommend home testing or any change in food. They recommend shooting whether they eat or not and to keep karo syrup on hand for dropping too low. They want to see them every 7-10 for them to test BG and they go up in 1 unit increments.
    My guess is he'll tell us to go back to Vetsulin... but maybe there's something else going on and he'll find it.

    Many Thanks!!
     
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  26. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Keep going with the 3.5U.

    Vetsulin normally only has an 8-10 hour duration in cats, leaving them in high BG numbers for 2-4 hours per cycle. Or 4-8 hours per day. Not good.

    Is your vet aware of the (2018) AAHA Diabetes Management Guidelines for Dogs and Cats?
    Send him a copy?
     
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  27. Ja'

    Ja' Member

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    @Deb & Wink @Panic @JanetNJ

    With this being day 5 on 3.5 units, I'm thinking you prob don't think it's NDW.

    You also mentioned glucose toxicity. I did some reading and I think it could very well be that.
    Ernest had his regular annual exam in January with nothing wrong.
    Then he had an abscess on his back (prob from a scuffle with his sister) and the vet put him on an antibiotic (biomox amoxicillin).
    The abscess cleared up but then we noticed he started losing weight and didn't want to eat.
    I think the abscess kept him from getting an earlier diagnosis of diabetes.
    He probably had high BG long before his June 24th diagnosis.

    My daughter came over on Saturday. She hadn't seen Ernest in a few weeks. She went on and on about how great he looked and acted compared to the last time she saw him.

    Sometimes when we're around all the time, we don't see the difference like other people do.

    I started thinking about it and he's much stronger and has def put on a few pounds recently. He jumps up on tall bar stools and he follows me around the house.

    So is "Mr. Liver" (as I read one person tell the story) still thinking he should have a high glucose and dumping into his system? Thoughts?

    Thank you for all of your time and expertise.
     
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  28. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    No, that is too long for NDW (New Dose Wonkiness) to be the cause for the higher BG levels still.
    Much more likely to be insulin resistance.

    The way to get past the insulin resistance, (aka glucose toxicity) is to keep increasing the dose.
    So I'd recommend increasing the dose to 4U.

    There are a couple of high dose conditions, IAA and acromegaly, but we don't suggest testing for those until the dose is > 5-6 Units.
     
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  29. Ja'

    Ja' Member

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    4u starting in the am! I sure hope this does the trick!!
    Thank you!
     
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  30. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Def do 4. I'd be surprised if you saw much progress before 5 units.

    He very well may wind up being acro. It's more common than once thought. My cat was diagnosed with it 18 months ago.
     
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  31. Ja'

    Ja' Member

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    @Deb & Wink @Panic @JanetNJ

    Yesterday was better, but today we're red again.
    Looks like "Mr Liver" doesn't want to give up easily.
    Prob should've gone to 4.5 this morning??
    This is exhausting....
    4.5units in the morning?
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2020
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  32. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    yes, i would. I have definitely been where you are. I hope these numbers come down soon for you.
     
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  33. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    You increase the dose until you don't have to increase anymore.

    Yes, increase to 4.5U in the AM is my recommendation too.
     
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  34. Ja'

    Ja' Member

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    Do we increase daily? or every 2 days?
    At some point it's just going to drop fast, right?
     
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  35. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Every day is too fast. Giving it at least 2-3 days is better unless there's ketones. Are you checking for ketones at home? At some point you will find your breakthrough dose and then it should start dropping, yes. I'm wondering though with very little movement in numbers of there's more going on like acromegaly.
     
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  36. Ja'

    Ja' Member

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    We are not checking for keytones, should we start? I haven't really done any reading on it......yet.
    Ernest is potty trained!! So I can just find something to put in the toilet to catch it.
     

    Attached Files:

  37. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    You should since he's so high all the time. You can catch the pee and do a ketone strip, or get a ketone meter that works just like a bg meter. I use a meter because it's just easier for me. What a tricky kitty you have there. Lol
     
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  38. Ja'

    Ja' Member

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    @Deb & Wink @Panic @JanetNJ

    We opened this vial of prozinc on July 9th. It's still good right? It's about 2.75 months old. I've read all different opinions on how long they're good once opened but most people say 3 months. We'll be due to change out at about 3 months, maybe a little less.

    And what happens when we start the new vial?
    Do we give the amount we're on? or do we give less the first cycle?

    This is terribly complicated!!
    I was hoping his numbers would be coming down by now. I was just surprised by the 425 reading 3 hours after giving 4.5units!
    Thankfully, Ernest is a champ. He's such a good boy and seems happy & content.
    I'm worrying enough for both of us.
     
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  39. Panic

    Panic Well-Known Member

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    Boy, Ernest is keeping you on your toes with all those reds! Fingers crossed he's just got some major glucose toxicity but remember what Janet said ... if he hits 6u without stopping you'll want to consider testing for acro/IAA to rule it out.

    I've always heard 3-4 months with vials. I kept mine for roughly 3 months. As long as there's no floaties in it it should be fine until you get the new vial. Keep the same dose.

    Scritches for Ernest!
     
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  40. Ja'

    Ja' Member

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    I picked up a box of the ReliOn ketone test strips. Now what? LOL
    I mean I know I have to collect his urine...but then what?
    What number am I hoping for?
    Is there a specific time of day I'm doing this?
    Sorry, lots of questions!
    I appreciate your patience....

    Thanks!
     
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  41. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    I believe you just hold it in pee and then at 15 seconds compare it with the chart. I've never personally used the strips (I use a meter). So read the directions carefully and have a timer ready. Anything over a trace is an emergency.
     
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  42. Ja'

    Ja' Member

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    They didn't have any meters. What kind do you have?
     
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  43. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    I have a keto MOJO meter. They have them on amazon. There's several brands in there.
     
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  44. Ja'

    Ja' Member

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    @Deb & Wink @Panic @JanetNJ

    I called the vet's office today to ask if I could bring Ernest in tomorrow for bloodwork.

    They asked why. I told them I wanted to see if he has any infection and check his organ function since his BG level won't come down.

    She proceeded to scold me for:
    1. Home testing- she said I was confusing myself with all the numbers, that an 8 hour reading every 7 days is all that's necessary.
    2. That there is no correlation between infection and a rise in BG.
    3. It's not a big deal that he's on 5 units twice daily and still high BG - She said we just needed to keep increasing.
    4. Switching to Prozinc from Vetsulin was a mistake.
    5. There's no such thing as remission. They are diabetic for the rest of their life.
    6. She said to just call next Wed @ 8 hours and tell her the reading and she will check with the Dr. for how much to increase.

    I asked her why next Wed. She said they don't like a big increase on Friday because you might end up at the emerg vet over the weekend. No increase on Mondays because he's not in the office on Tuesdays.....

    So tomorrow I will be calling Vet's offices to find another vet..... Sad because we've been with them for about 15 years, but we've never had a serious health issue before.
    We live in Orlando, Florida if anyone knows of a good Vet around here!!

    Every time we increase his insulin, his BG goes up. I think we're fighting a really stubborn liver!
    I really want to increase from 5 units to 6 units in the morning - give his liver a jolt!
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2020
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  45. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    So receptionist or the vet tech was telling you this information?

    Let me address these responses from your vet clinic one at a time, ok?
    1. AAHA Diabetes Management Guidelines absolutely disagrees with what you were told. Home testing is the best way to see what is going on. Perhaps email a copy of the AAHA guidelines to the office? Drop off a copy when you go in to get your cat's vet records? Here is the link to those guidelines.
    AAHA 2018 Guidelines for Managing Diabetes

    Ah really? Partially correct, partially wrong.
    The high BG levels make the "patient" (human or feline) more susceptible to infection.
    Here are a couple of article links about humans and infection and BG levels.
    https://www.endocrineweb.com/news/diabetes/16186-link-between-high-blood-glucose-high-infection-risk
    https://www.diabeteswellness.net/sites/default/files/Illness and Diabetes.pdf

    General information article on feline diabetes from Cornell University, College of Veterinary medicine.

    https://www.vet.cornell.edu/departm...ormation/feline-health-topics/feline-diabetes

    Some cats can have high dose conditions, such as IAA (Insulin Auto Antibodies) or acromegaly. Acromegaly is much more common than once thought. There are tests for both of these high dose conditions, but the only place in the US that does the blood testing for these is the University of Michigan. Special handling and shipping is required to get the blood samples there in a timely manner and in good condition. We recommend that cats get tested when the dose gets up to around 5-6 units per cycle.
    Not in our experience. Nor in studies quoted in that AAHA article. Prozinc lasts much longer in cats than Vetsulin. Vetsulin (aka Caninsulin) was developed for DOGS. (canine=dog) These AAHA consensus guidelines came out in 2010 and were updated in 2018. Perhaps your vet clinic is not a member of the AAHA and has never seen this information?
    True. But there is such a thing as being diet controlled. Wink managed that "remission" status, off the juice, no insulin, diet controlled only, for the last 4 years of his life. Plenty of other cats on here have also gone into "remission" or diet controlled status. Cat number 450 just celebrated their OTJ (off-the-juice) status yesterday, over in the Lantus ISG group. https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/otj-party-for-kittencat-today.236157/#post-2647486 Many more cats then are listed there have gone into "remission" on other insulins and before this list was being maintained. Cornell article even calls it remission.
    I can see why you want to shop around for a new vet after that experience. Ideas on vets in your area may get more responses if you put a post in the Feline Health forum, specifying what you are looking for and what area.

    Here are some vet interview topics for you. It's another one of the many threads to be found in the Health Links/FAQs' forum. Vet Interview/Screening Topics & Check List

    Hope at least some of this helps you.

    I wouldn't suggest upping the dose by a full unit. Perhaps a 0.5U increase again tomorrow? Are you up for that?
     
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  46. Panic

    Panic Well-Known Member

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    Is a vet tech even allowed to be making those kind of comments? :confused:
    I'd definitely be informing the vet of the person's comments while handing them a copy of the AAHA guidelines and say you're looking for someone who already knows the difference between canine and feline diabetes. :rolleyes: That's probably too snotty to say but it's what I'd be thinking!

    Take a look at the thread I started over on Think Tank about canine diabetes - your secretary/vet tech/whatever seems to be confusing the two significantly. Sigh.
     
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  47. Ja'

    Ja' Member

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    @Deb & Wink @Panic @JanetNJ

    Ernest doesn't want to eat!
    We finally got him to eat half a can last night and gave him his insulin.
    Refused all night.
    This morning I got a little cooked chicken and maybe 2 tsp of wet in him and gave him 5.5u.

    This is terrible. I'm going to start calling at 9am to find a new vet.
    What else can we do??
     
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  48. Panic

    Panic Well-Known Member

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    Is he nauseous? Licking his lips, turning away from food bowl?
     
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  49. Ja'

    Ja' Member

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    No, he doesn't seem to be nauseous or licking his lips.
    We mixed some cooked chicken in it and he finally ate half a can.
    What normally takes 5 minutes to eat, took an hour!
     
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  50. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Hey whatever works. Give him chicken! :)
     
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  51. Ja'

    Ja' Member

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    I have hopefully found a good vet for Ernest. We have an appt Tues @ 11am!
    He specializes in the endocrine system. The office manager said her cat was diabetic and used the Lantus pen.
    She said they do not recommend vetsulin for cats and encourage everyone to home test!
    So far, so good!!

    We increased to 5.5u this morning, his +4 is 293! His appetite is back. He ate 1/2 a can.
    I know I'm supposed to be looking for blue and green but with nothing but red & pink, this is super exciting!
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2020
  52. Panic

    Panic Well-Known Member

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    Wow!! That sounds promising!

    Baby steps, that yellow is very welcome to see!
     
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  53. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    yellow is definitely better then red and pink! I'm glad you found a vet who is (so far) on the same page.
     
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  54. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Yellows? We'll take it! Better than those reds and pinks that Ernest has been getting.

    New vet sounds like what we would recommend. You worked fast, to find a new vet and get an appointment so soon. Good job Ja'!

    It's important that Ernest gets his insulin, even if he has not eaten much. Whatever it takes to get him to eat, do that. If that is chicken or some plain baby food, than that is what you use. He's high enough that the risk of ketones is present, especially if he does not eat.

    Please test for ketones when you get a chance, please.

    You might want to read through this thread, on why it's important to give your cat insulin, even if their appetite is not as good as normal.
    https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/some-bad-advice-for-newbies.9070/
     
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  55. Ja'

    Ja' Member

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    @Deb & Wink @Panic @JanetNJ

    And just like that, we're back to black! HIGHEST EVER!
    I guess we'll go to 6 units in the morning??
    So depressing.........

    The good thing is that you would never know from Ernest's behavior.
    He seems happy and strong. Runs around the house following us. Jumps up on the barstool.
    Other than the 2 meals a couple of days ago, he's eating really well.
    Still using the potty (real potty).

    Just doesn't make sense!!
     
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  56. Panic

    Panic Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to be hopeful and say maybe he dropped lower today that you didn't see and that caused a bounce. :p
    Hang in there! Let's see what happens.
     
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  57. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    I am sorry. I know the frustration. I feel you will probably need an IAA/acro test. This is how my cat was too. :(
     
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  58. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    What Janet said. It's time for those high dose condition tests.
     
  59. Panic

    Panic Well-Known Member

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    Yep, let's get em over with. Fingers crossed.
     
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  60. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Jan 31, 2013
    We like to have members start a new thread when they get close to or over 50 posts. This one is at 60 replies.

    Link the old thread into the new thread, so we have some history to get our heads around.

    Thanks so much.
     

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