Freya Updates/Dosing Help Needed

Status
Not open for further replies.
KrustiKakes

KrustiKakes

Member Since 2020
I posted this in the Prozinc forum, but @Panic suggested I might get more eyes in the main forum.
I am truly at a loss.

"Since June Freya's numbers have been pretty steady, and things have been pretty easy. She has been doing wonderfully. I have noticed her numbers kinda creeping up the past week or so. We bumped up her dose slightly, and now they numbers are going way up (bounce?). We have not been seeing these numbers since early in her diagnosis.

What could cause numbers to spike like this? We recently opened a new bottle of Prozinc that we picked up from the vet a couple of months ago. Is it possible that even with a good date the bottle is bad? I would assume it was properly stored at the vet, but you never know if something happened. It doesn't have anything wrong in its appearance that is obvious though.

We had been feeding her Fancy Feast Savory Centers pretty much full time (with Tiki Cat mixed in) about 2 months ago the chicken flavor was hard to find, and now we can no longer get the beef flavor either as of about 2 weeks ago. We are back on Tiki Cat chicken along with trying various other things (standard fancy feast pate chicken, chicken and beef, etc). Could these not agree with her? We have used them before, but never full time.

Other recentish changes: We took her off Dasuquin around a month ago due to reading it may not be great for diabetes. I have been giving her Hyalogic Cat Hyaluronic Acid instead. From what I can tell this should be okay, right?

We have been working her off prednisolone. I would think this would make her numbers better, but i am not sure why they are going up. I have noticed some hairloss on her belly, and even a little inside her back leg. Should I be worried about the steroids causing Cushings? If so, would getting her off the steroid help? I am now at 4 days between doses. Her doage is 1.25 mg. I am still worried about her spine issue, so we are going very very slowly to see how she reacts.

She still takes Zobaline, and was doing very well. The past few days with higher numbers I can tell her squatting in the bathroom is not looking as great as it used to. I am assuming higher numbers are affecting her neuropathy again.

She is still on Gabapentin twice a day.

I recently bought fortiflora when she was having diarrhea. She has now been taking it around a week. I give her to her once a day or every other day. Seems to have worked well. Could it affect her blood sugar?

Could she have an infection somewhere? She is still hungry (even moreso the past few days with the high numbers), she isn't exhibiting any off behaviors (definitely drinking more water, but again, I assume from the higher numbers). I just do not know what to lookout for, or what tests to even nhave the vet run.

My first instinct is to keep upping her dose, but I want thoughts/opinions first. Should I bump up more starting tomorrow? Should I go down? We were doing so so so so well, I thought maybe she was heading towards remission. I feel so sad now.

She is supposed to see the vet next month, but I can call and make an appointment sooner too. I just would like to have some ideas to bring to my vet as they have admitted they do not have a lot of experience with diabetic cats, and I want to make sure they do more than just a quick glance.

I am hoping to start seeing better numbers again soon. I also think at these numbers I should test for Ketones. Any recommendations if I cannot catch her urine? I hear they have blood meters. Any recommendations? Can they be found locally?

I appreciate the help."
 
The more I look at your SS the more I wonder if she's ready for an increase or needs to hold a little longer. She maaay need to go back up to 1.25u. Minus yesterday her mid-cycles do indicate she's under 150, which is good. But she's used to green numbers so maybe an increase IS called for. I'm going to tag @Deb & Wink about it, she's probably gone for the night, won't be back on until this time tomorrow, so maybe hold fire until then.

Did forget to mention, blood ketone meters I've heard of Precision Xtra and Keto-Mojo, I think you order them off Amazon.
The Savory Centers we were talking about - I found a post from @Olive & Paula that says they are low-carb, so if that's still accurate then I think an increase is in order if Deb agrees.
 
Panic said:
The more I look at your SS the more I wonder if she's ready for an increase or needs to hold a little longer. She maaay need to go back up to 1.25u. Minus yesterday her mid-cycles do indicate she's under 150, which is good. But she's used to green numbers so maybe an increase IS called for. I'm going to tag @Deb & Wink about it, she's probably gone for the night, won't be back on until this time tomorrow, so maybe hold fire until then.

Did forget to mention, blood ketone meters I've heard of Precision Xtra and Keto-Mojo, I think you order them off Amazon.
The Savory Centers we were talking about - I found a post from @Olive & Paula that says they are low-carb, so if that's still accurate then I think an increase is in order if Deb agrees.
Click to expand...

Is it pretty normal for things like this to happen? No outward changes can cause her numbers to spike? Her need for insulin to increase? I just want to make sure this is pretty normal too. A family member in my husband's family passed away earlier this week, and so I am feeling extra emotional. I feel like I am going into panic-mode, which makes me want to start making a bunch of changes fast. I know it is best to move slowly, but it is upsetting to see things like her thirst increase again, and I can tell her squat in the litter box is off too which makes me think her neuropathy is acting up again. Again, both things I know are expected with higher numbers, but it is hard to see.

Thanks again for the information. I will do the 1.25 bump in the morning. I can always adjust from there.
 
Diabetes is a moving target I'm afraid. Always changing. If you look at anyone's spreadsheet here you'll probably see a pattern of moving up and down the dosing scales all the time. It doesn't mean she's backtracking though. Her numbers really aren't that bad right now. And if you're emotional/stressed that can stress her out too.

If you do increase in the morning, try to squeeze in a test to make sure she's doing okay on the dose. Hang in there!
 
Panic said:
Diabetes is a moving target I'm afraid. Always changing. If you look at anyone's spreadsheet here you'll probably see a pattern of moving up and down the dosing scales all the time. It doesn't mean she's backtracking though. Her numbers really aren't that bad right now. And if you're emotional/stressed that can stress her out too.

If you do increase in the morning, try to squeeze in a test to make sure she's doing okay on the dose. Hang in there!
Click to expand...

Thank you so much. Honestly, hearing this helps me feel more normal. I can come on and do a test at lunch.

If you know of anyone that may have a lot of prednisolone experience/good threads on it, let me know. I have found some info, but hoping maybe someone out there has been in a similar situation in terms of slowly cutting back very very very slowly.

I still think I will call her vet, and get her in for a check up earlier. I am still very open on advice on what testing I should ask for what/what I should make note of. He wasn't thrilled with the idea of me home testing, and even less thrilled I went with a human meter (though he did recommend the freestyle libre), but I still plan on having him look her chart over, and I hope he takes it into consideration. I really like my vet, the whole office is great, but they definitely treat cat diabetes like dog diabetes, and do not tend to go further than that.
 
Let me see if I can think of anyone that might be knowledgeable on prednisolone. @Wendy&Neko @tiffmaxee @Aleluia Grugru & Minnie @Tomlin @Shelley & Jess @Chris & China (GA)

You seem to already know to take your vet's feline diabetes advice with a grain of salt. Most of us don't even ask our vets for input concerning diabetes anymore.
It's nearly midnight here so I imagine a lot of our experienced members are asleep. Hopefully they'll see this by morning and have some input for you.
 
Olive & Paula said:
Vet visit sooner might be good idea. The squatting could be a urine infection brewing. Could be reducing the pred is making the issue it was treating flare up. This Hyalogic stuff you mention what are the ingredients?

Savory centers are safe.
Click to expand...

Hyalogic =hyaluronic acid & saline

For infection = I feel like a uti could be possibly coming up. She doesn't tend to have obvious signs (licking herself, using the box a lot , but small amounts, etc), but had an infection when she was diagnosed. I assume I should call for a general lab work checkup, and will mention checking for a UTI as well.
 
KrustiKakes said:
Hyalogic =hyaluronic acid & saline

For infection = I feel like a uti could be possibly coming up. She doesn't tend to have obvious signs (licking herself, using the box a lot , but small amounts, etc), but had an infection when she was diagnosed. I assume I should call for a general lab work checkup, and will mention checking for a UTI as well.
Click to expand...

Can you get a urine sample and run it in? They can test it without a visit.

And regarding home monitor using human meter, when vet brings up the freestyle libre, your response could be "Isn't that a human meter"

If uti are often, maybe look into d-mannose, it does help.

What is this acid/saline for? I only see it used for bronchitis in infants. Never heard of it before.
 
Last edited:
KrustiKakes said:
I have been giving her Hyalogic Cat Hyaluronic Acid instead. From what I can tell this should be okay, right?
Click to expand...
My Neko got this for a while for her arthritis, but we used the medium sized dog one instead. Same product but cheaper by volume. Oh, and my non diabetic took it to help his bladder walls as he was prone to cystitis.
KrustiKakes said:
We have been working her off prednisolone. I would think this would make her numbers better, but i am not sure why they are going up. I have noticed some hairloss on her belly, and even a little inside her back leg. Should I be worried about the steroids causing Cushings? If so, would getting her off the steroid help?
Click to expand...
We don't see much Cushings around here, much less the kind caused by prednisolone which is even less common. There is a fairly simple test for it. Does she have a pot belly too? Going off of pred is the solution. But you are on a pretty small dose and only every 4 days. The hair loss could also be allergies.
 
Olive & Paula said:
Can you get a urine sample and run it in? They can test it without a visit.

And regarding home monitor using human meter, when vet brings up the freestyle libre, your response could be "Isn't that a human meter"

If uti are often, maybe look into d-mannose, it dfoes help.
Click to expand...

She is on Dr. Mercola Bladder Support, will this help? I give her a very, very, very reduced dose due to my fear of carbs in it.

I bought testing strips that say they test for a UTI, but have had no luck. She is super easy going (well, feisty in an incredibly cute/hilarious way), but if she sees me coming at her while she is in the litter box she jumps out to beg for food (another thing happening the past few days with higher numbers). If this is something the vet can do without her drama, it is worth the money.

I plan on definitely reminding him about the libre/human meter connection if he brings it up. I really wanted her next appointment to be full of her previous good results. I thought it might help him realize that maybe things don't have to be so by-the-book. Again, super awesome vet, but sometimes stuck in his ways.
 
Wendy&Neko said:
My Neko got this for a while for her arthritis, but we used the medium sized dog one instead. Same product but cheaper by volume. Oh, and my non diabetic took it to help his bladder walls as he was prone to cystitis.

We don't see much Cushings around here, much less the kind caused by prednisolone which is even less common. There is a fairly simple test for it. Does she have a pot belly too? Going off of pred is the solution. But you are on a pretty small dose and only every 4 days. The hair loss could also be allergies.
Click to expand...

She has a bald, pink, round belly. She has always been a chubby kitty at around 10-12 pounds (she is adorably short, and does not handle weight well). It has been around the past month I noticed hair loss on her inner thigh/belly. Her belly still looks quite firm even though she has gone down 1-2 pounds since May.
Her belly was bald at diagnosis due to neuropathy making it so her belly always rubbed against the ground, but it grew back shortly after starting Zobaline. Is beef a common allergy? I did notice this loss started around the time her diet went from around 40% beef to 80% beef. I tend to start googling things, and get super nervous. I feel like I let her down with her original diabetes diagnosis (Covid/lockdown made me visit the vet weeks after I started seeing odd symptoms), and now I am on high alert. I am so impressed with the knowledge of the people here. I am 4 months in, and still feel so lost.

Thank you so mcuh!
 
If she had steroid-induced Cushing's, you'd likely be seeing improvement in her coat condition as you wean her off. My cat Snowcrash had steroid-induced Cushing's, and it was a dramatic improvement in his coat condition as he was weaned off steroids.

How are her bowel movements?

I'm wondering if decreasing her steroid dose may be increasing her pain somewhere. I'm new here and likely missed the posts with this information; but what is she on prednisolone for?
 
I have had 2 diabetics, been member here for years. At times I felt like a newbie. You think you have a pretty good handle on it then the cat shows something new, and all of a sudden your back at the beginning. One thing you can count on is that cats will always keep you guessing, and always have your senses on high alert.

Some ideas on hair loss. If you can get a urine sample at home and run it to vet, there will be less stress on Freya. Some people put plastic wrap on top of litter. I have used rinsed lentil beans, Ollie was a scratcher in the box. Aquarium gravel works also. Just enough for them to scratch, not like all the litter you would put in box. Puppy pad plastic side up in a clean box.

For the bladder support, NOW d-mannose does not have carbs.

Is Freya long hair? Maybe hygiene clip to keep fur from getting urine scaled will help. If her belly is hitting the litter she in the box, it could be getting irritated. Keep litter level low. A rare possibility, Freya could be allergic to the litter you are using.

Years ago (early 2000) I had 2 non diabetics allergic to the charcoal in Fresh Step litter when company started adding it. They had really bad irritation on their bottoms, legs and belly. Took awhile to realize it was the litter, who would have thought, right !!!!!! Hundreds of dollars on tests, meds, changing foods etc. And it was because company changed their product. So now only unscented, no charcoal, baking soda, lavender anything in the litter I buy. I will actually open jugs in stores and smell the litter every single time. I don't trust the labels. Similar thing with cat food. Previous kitty allergic to fish. So I never feed food with fish in the title to any of my cats.

Cushing I know nothing about. I did have the urine test done first to see if it was possible. The vet said the other test (Wendy would know) requires a drug which Ollie couldn't have because of her heart. Her urine was negative.

Hang in there, you are a great kitty mom.
 
THH said:
If she had steroid-induced Cushing's, you'd likely be seeing improvement in her coat condition as you wean her off. My cat Snowcrash had steroid-induced Cushing's, and it was a dramatic improvement in his coat condition as he was weaned off steroids.

How are her bowel movements?

I'm wondering if decreasing her steroid dose may be increasing her pain somewhere. I'm new here and likely missed the posts with this information; but what is she on prednisolone for?
Click to expand...

She had diarrhea for a short bit, but Fortiflora helped that. They went normal, but may be getting a bit constipated. I think this happened when her blood sugar was higher at the beginning as well
 
Olive & Paula said:
I have had 2 diabetics, been member here for years. At times I felt like a newbie. You think you have a pretty good handle on it then the cat shows something new, and all of a sudden your back at the beginning. One thing you can count on is that cats will always keep you guessing, and always have your senses on high alert.

Some ideas on hair loss. If you can get a urine sample at home and run it to vet, there will be less stress on Freya. Some people put plastic wrap on top of litter. I have used rinsed lentil beans, Ollie was a scratcher in the box. Aquarium gravel works also. Just enough for them to scratch, not like all the litter you would put in box. Puppy pad plastic side up in a clean box.

For the bladder support, NOW d-mannose does not have carbs.

Is Freya long hair? Maybe hygiene clip to keep fur from getting urine scaled will help. If her belly is hitting the litter she in the box, it could be getting irritated. Keep litter level low. A rare possibility, Freya could be allergic to the litter you are using.

Years ago (early 2000) I had 2 non diabetics allergic to the charcoal in Fresh Step litter when company started adding it. They had really bad irritation on their bottoms, legs and belly. Took awhile to realize it was the litter, who would have thought, right !!!!!! Hundreds of dollars on tests, meds, changing foods etc. And it was because company changed their product. So now only unscented, no charcoal, baking soda, lavender anything in the litter I buy. I will actually open jugs in stores and smell the litter every single time. I don't trust the labels. Similar thing with cat food. Previous kitty allergic to fish. So I never feed food with fish in the title to any of my cats.

Cushing I know nothing about. I did have the urine test done first to see if it was possible. The vet said the other test (Wendy would know) requires a drug which Ollie couldn't have because of her heart. Her urine was negative.

Hang in there, you are a great kitty mom.
Click to expand...

How much d-mannose do you give in a day?

Freya is a lynx point siamese and her fur is what I would call short, but very fuzzy. Sheh does not tend to get her belly touching the litter,but I will look more closely. Hairloss on her leg is upper leg, inside. Should I try to grab a picture? We use Dr Elseys Cat Attract litter, and it doesn't really have a smell. We started using it in 2014 when our other cat starting peeing on the floor while he was sick. Should I try something else?

As for a food allergy: What recommendations would you have for low carb food that may be easier on a cat with allergies? She had some slightly elevated kidney numbers (last time they were on the high end of normal) so if they are kidney-friendly that would be even better!

Should I have my vet run a full urine test? I know her blood sugar will likely be even higher at the vet, but I do not take his dosing advice.
 
Bumped up Freya to 1.25 this am. @Panic she is now at 228 at her +5...YIKES! I assume I should hold the dose at least for a few days, and then go to 1.5?

She has been drinking so much water today, and her chest is getting wet again. Argh, this happened last time her numbers were high too. Poor baby!
 
General urine test is fine but then tell vet if there is bacteria, then run culture and sensitivity.

Food is trial and error unless you know specifically what Freya is allergic to. I opted for allergy test because Tripper is extremely picky when it comes to food. One brand, one flavor. Tried different food once, figured when you get hungry you will eat. Nope not her, after 2 days not eating had to give her back her dry food. Took 3 years to transition her and find a food she would eat.

It's possible the cat attract additive in the litter is reacting with the urine. Try the plain Dr Elseys litter and see what happens.
 
KrustiKakes said:
We have been working her off prednisolone.
Click to expand...
Steroids can keep the BG levels higher.
KrustiKakes said:
We recently opened a new bottle of Prozinc that we picked up from the vet a couple of months ago. Is it possible that even with a good date the bottle is bad?
Click to expand...
Yes.
Panic said:
The Savory Centers we were talking about - I found a post from @Olive & Paula that says they are low-carb, so if that's still accurate then I think an increase is in order if Deb agrees.
Click to expand...
Yes, Deb does agree that a dose increase is warranted. Holding the dose at 1U will not gain you anything. So it's good you took the suggestion and increased the dose to 1.25U already.

228 isn't really that low. Still in the yellow color coded range. You want to see more blues and greens again. But do give this dose increase at least a few cycles to see what it does for Freya. 3-6 cycles are usually the minimum number of cycles to hold a dose change, unless the BG drops < 90 mg/dL.

Tiki Cat is very low carb. Most Fancy Feast pate style foods are low carb too. I don't think the food change from the unavailable Savory Centers cat food has anything to do with the increased BG levels. (The savory centers cat food are low carb, looked it up one time.)
 
Deb & Wink said:
Steroids can keep the BG levels higher.

Yes.

Yes, Deb does agree that a dose increase is warranted. Holding the dose at 1U will not gain you anything. So it's good you took the suggestion and increased the dose to 1.25U already.

228 isn't really that low. Still in the yellow color coded range. You want to see more blues and greens again. But do give this dose increase at least a few cycles to see what it does for Freya. 3-6 cycles are usually the minimum number of cycles to hold a dose change, unless the BG drops < 90 mg/dL.

Tiki Cat is very low carb. Most Fancy Feast pate style foods are low carb too. I don't think the food change from the unavailable Savory Centers cat food has anything to do with the increased BG levels. (The savory centers cat food are low carb, looked it up one time.)
Click to expand...
Hi Deb!!! :bighug::bighug::bighug:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top