8/08 Butters AMPS 272/+3 373/+8 380/PMPS 247/+2 245/+4 211/ Canadians, what calipers do you use?

[Butters & Lyla]

Yesterday's action

Butters earned herself a reduction over the last cycle. She was very dramatic about it and I don't know why. Now looks like she bounced.

We were at .75U for three cycles and now we have to shoot .5U.

Have a lovely day/evening, all.

 

[carfurby (GA)]

Wow. What a night you and Butters had. Sometimes when they really want a reduction it will be hard to get their numbers back up. I hope she slides down slowly today and you can get a nap in.

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

Wow what a night!
You must be exhausted. She didn’t bounce for long yesterday so I’d keep an eye on those BGs in case she wants to drop again.

 

[jt and trouble (GA)]

God I LOVE this place! See what we mean by family?

 

[Butters & Lyla]

Wow. What a night you and Butters had. Sometimes when they really want a reduction it will be hard to get their numbers back up. I hope she slides down slowly today and you can get a nap in.

Thanks...For some reason I've noticed a lot of reductions and some late nights happening for members this week, yourself included.

Wow what a night!
You must be exhausted. She didn’t bounce for long yesterday so I’d keep an eye on those BGs in case she wants to drop again.

Just as I was getting confident that her bounces always lasted at least three cycles, she changes things up. I will definitely monitor her.

Wanted to add, I am exhausted but I had company from @Briere Fur Mom and @thebigfuzz . They must be exhausted. @Briere Fur Mom is in my time zone, too.

God I LOVE this place! See what we mean by family?

Yes! I love it, too. You welcomed me to it on my first day. Now I can say I truly understand what you mean.

 

[Briere Fur Mom]

There's that bounce. Bouncy days for kitties = nappy days for beans!!! I hope you didn't stay up all night!?! Great job last night
I bet +8.75 made you breathe a sigh of relief Woohoo rock on!!

 

[thebigfuzz]

Nap day!!!!!!

 

[Butters & Lyla]

There's that bounce. Bouncy days for kitties = nappy days for beans!!! I hope you didn't stay up all night!?! Great job last night
I bet +8.75 made you breathe a sigh of relief Woohoo rock on!!

That +8.75 was sweet relief. Didn't stay up all night, just most of it! I cleaned up the sticky, syrupy Butters and slept for an hour before it was AMPS time. Napped after that I have never been so glad to see her in a bounce. She is bouncing higher than I have seen in quite a while.
I hope you got some sleep!!

Nap day!!!!!!

Yay!

 

[Briere Fur Mom]

I hope you got some sleep!!

I did indeed.
As Bron mentioned above, Butters cleared her previous bounce fairly quick. It's possible, even on a reduced dose and bounce to see some action later. Keep those peepers peeled 'cause she may decide to drop. Paws crossed if she does get a lil frisky it's not as dramatic
Get some rest Lyla

 

[Butters & Lyla]

I did indeed.
As Bron mentioned above, Butters cleared her previous bounce fairly quick. It's possible, even on a reduced dose and bounce to see some action later. Keep those peepers peeled 'cause she may decide to drop. Paws crossed if she does get a lil frisky it's not as dramatic
Get some rest Lyla

Oh good! I'm glad you slept.
I will keep my eyes on her. I think with the 373 @+3 I'm good to wait til +8 to test again...based on the data I have thusfar. Of course, with her changing things up lately, I don't know if that data is to be trusted.
Well, I only have 30ish minutes until +8 anyways. I think I'm moving in super slow motion today.

 

[Red & Rover (GA)]

+3 was 45 Fed 1 TBSP HC (26%) gravy + 1 drop of sugar syrup
+3.3 was 49 Fed 1 TBSP HC (26%) gravy + 1 drop of sugar syrup
+3.6 was 38 Fed 1 TBSP HC (26%) gravy + 1 huge drop of sugar syrup

This pulled me out of sleep last night. 1 tbsp of gravy is a lot of gravy. Did you feed a tbsp of the food with gravy or just the gravy?

The carbs are in the gravy, not the bits of meat.
To get at the gravy, you take the lid off and use the lid to press down on the contents of the can to bring the gravy to the top.

Your signature states that you use Weruva MC and HC. I don't see a Weruva 26%. What Weruva foods are you using?

Also, if you want to stay with the sugar syrup, keep track of what you give. The "one drop" and the "huge drop" didn't seem to do much.

Enjoy nap day.

 

[Butters & Lyla]

This pulled me out of sleep last night. 1 tbsp of gravy is a lot of gravy. Did you feed a tbsp of the food with gravy or just the gravy?

The carbs are in the gravy, not the bits of meat.
To get at the gravy, you take the lid off and use the lid to press down on the contents of the can to bring the gravy to the top.

Your signature states that you use Weruva MC and HC. I don't see a Weruva 26%. What Weruva foods are you using?

Also, if you want to stay with the sugar syrup, keep track of what you give. The "one drop" and the "huge drop" didn't seem to do much.

Enjoy nap day.

I don't like it pulled you out of sleep, but you taking the time to reply and tell me to use more syrup and forget the gravy helped so much . Briere Fur Mom had me give her lots of syrup after that, which finally worked.

Is there a consistent way we measure out syrup on here? Or is it just trial and error? I understand with the gravy we normally do it by the 1 tsp.

When I measured out a full tbsp of just the gravy each time, it was in the exact way you described. After she didn't react at all to the MC and dropped, I selfishly wanted to just put an end to her dropping. That's why I did 1 TBSP instead of 1 TSP of just gravy.

I just rechecked the food chart and the HC was 21% not 26%. I'll correct it in my spreadsheet. My bad I mixed up the % fat with the % carb.

The HC (21%) is Weruva Original Grandma's Chicken Soup.
The MC (16%) is Weruva Chick Magnet.

I was not thinking clearly with the syrup. She definitely consumed a lot of it, that I know.

 

[Butters & Lyla]

I just wanted to add, after feeding those 3 tbsp of only HC gravy (no meat bits) with the drops of syrup....that's when I started to panic. We are supposed to be in control of our cats' numbers when we have HC and syrup, and I felt very much that I was not in control. How on earth does that not instantly skyrocket a diabetic cat? I used the 911 tag at that point which I had never done before.

 

[Briere Fur Mom]

How on earth does that not instantly skyrocket a diabetic cat?

I had the same issues with Moey sometimes. I didn't understand if he was having a delayed carb/sugar reaction or if we were truly fighting the insulin. Larger amounts of sugar/carbs are needed sometimes ***shrugs*** ?
I'm interested to hear what an experienced member has to say.

 

[Butters & Lyla]

I had the same issues with Moey sometimes. I didn't understand if he was having a delayed carb/sugar reaction or if we were truly fighting the insulin. Larger amounts of sugar/carbs are needed sometimes ***shrugs*** ?
I'm interested to hear what an experienced member has to say.

Butters has seemingly stayed in the high 300s all day...could this maybe be part bounce part delayed carb/sugar reaction? hmmmm.

 

[Red & Rover (GA)]

It's a bounce due to the long run of low numbers. As Bron mentioned, she does not bounce for long. Get a nap.

 

[Butters & Lyla]

I could not nap. I was searching old threads on calipers because after checking my BD syringes for myself and seeing the inconsistencies in the markings for myself.

I am trying to figure out what pair of calipers Canadians buy since the Freight Harbour ones don't ship to Canada. Where do Canadians buy theirs from? I haven't been able to find the equivalent ones online, and not yet come across a thread with a recommendation on a specific pair to use with the BD syringes having a lip that sticks out right along the top of the syringe.

There are way too many options online at Amazon and big box stores....I would rather know what someone else has had success with before I shell out more $$$ on something, they have used that works with the BD syringes and that funny lip on them.

@Wendy&Neko @Laurasboyz you were talking about dosing with calipers recently. Would you be able to recommend something? And I apologize if you have been asked this a million times...I can't find a recommendation in an old thread yet.

Thanks so much.

 

[Sienne and Gabby (GA)]

I don't think it's a matter of whether one is from Canada or the US. The digital calipers that I used were a 6" caliper. This is the link to the one I used. Usually, calipers are used for measuring a distance, not an insulin dose so the increment really doesn't matter. You are calibrating based on your dose and then adjusting the width of the caliper based on your dosing. You just don't want to get a really large caliper because it will be hard to measure a tiny dose. This post on dosing with calipers will give you an idea of what I'm talking about.

(FYI - Wendy is on vacation and doesn't have internet access.)

 

[Red & Rover (GA)]

Check out @AmandaE 's thread:
https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB...119-pmps-153-2-219-4-298.216864/#post-2407198

Also, I believe @Sonia & Leo uses calipers.

 

[Sue and Luci]

I use the same calipers...possibly I've recommended them to you previously - from Harbor Freight. You can try to get them from other stores or perhaps Amazon. Just get the 6" calipers with the locking mechanism on the top so once you set the digital setting, you can lock it in...otherwise resetting it every time will be a PITB.

 

[thebigfuzz]

Interesting about the calipers... I assume weight could work too for increased dosing accuracy? Thinking out loud... One would need to weigh the brand of needle and create a chart with insulin filled syringes to different doses to find the right weight for each dose? (water wouldn't work due to different molecular weight) I'm feeling nerdy today! Lol.

Hmmm....

 

[Butters & Lyla]

I don't think it's a matter of whether one is from Canada or the US. The digital calipers that I used were a 6" caliper. This is the link to the one I used. Usually, calipers are used for measuring a distance, not an insulin dose so the increment really doesn't matter. You are calibrating based on your dose and then adjusting the width of the caliper based on your dosing. You just don't want to get a really large caliper because it will be hard to measure a tiny dose. This post on dosing with calipers will give you an idea of what I'm talking about.

(FYI - Wendy is on vacation and doesn't have internet access.)

Thank you, Sienne. I am not being clear in my posts, sorry. It is the lack of sleep. I tried to order from Freight Harbor but they do not ship to Canada. I searched online looking to buy the Pittsburgh calipers in Canada, and no retailers come up. I found one option to purchase them from Amazon.com for $70 USD, including shipping to Canada, which is just outrageous.

Marje's video is incredible! I have no idea where I'd fit a lightbox in my place. I'll just focus on getting the calipers sorted out first.

... I assume weight could work too for increased dosing accuracy? ...Hmmm....

That's very interesting! Weighing them does come up in the thread Sienne provided on "dosing with calipers". I believe @tiffmaxee notes she tried to weigh the syringes but kept getting different results. You should read through that thread. The comments on what people tried to do to get very accurate dosing is fascinating.

Check out @AmandaE 's thread:
https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB...119-pmps-153-2-219-4-298.216864/#post-2407198

Also, I believe @Sonia & Leo uses calipers.

Thanks for this, Red. I was still searching though 2020 posts and found nothing. I will check out Mastercraft's ones. @Sue and Luci sounds like the locking mechanism is a must have. Thank you for that advice.

 

[Briere Fur Mom]

I purchased a light board from Walmart online. Think it was about $15. Here's a link https://www.walmart.com/ip/A4-Ultra...inting-Tracing-Pad-Copy-Board-Panel/729835447
The only complaint I have is the gridded background...but it worked just fine to illuminate the syringe.
Here's the calipers https://www.harborfreight.com/6-in-Digital-Caliper-63711.html?ccdenc=eyJjb2RlIjoiNzQ4OTI0MzciLCJza3UiOiI2MzcxMSIsImlzIjoiOS45OSIsInByb2R1Y3RfaWQi OiIxMjU2NiJ9 &cid=paid_google|||63711&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=&utm_content=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIyNTn7eWM6wIVDLLICh3VHQW6EAQYBSABEgIPSPD_BwE Seems you can get them from quite a few places.

Sorry for any repetition of info


ETA: That light board was NOT $31 USD when I purchased it. I'm sure you can find one cheaper but, you get the idea

 

[Butters & Lyla]

I purchased a light board from Walmart online. Think it was about $15. Here's a link https://www.walmart.com/ip/A4-Ultra...inting-Tracing-Pad-Copy-Board-Panel/729835447
The only complaint I have is the gridded background...but it worked just fine to illuminate the syringe.
Here's the calipers https://www.harborfreight.com/6-in-Digital-Caliper-63711.html?ccdenc=eyJjb2RlIjoiNzQ4OTI0MzciLCJza3UiOiI2MzcxMSIsImlzIjoiOS45OSIsInByb2R1Y3RfaWQi OiIxMjU2NiJ9 &cid=paid_google|||63711&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=&utm_content=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIyNTn7eWM6wIVDLLICh3VHQW6EAQYBSABEgIPSPD_BwE Seems you can get them from quite a few places.

Sorry for any repetition of info


ETA: That light board was NOT $31 USD when I purchased it. I'm sure you can find one cheaper but, you get the idea

Thanks! And everything tends to be more expensive in Canada than the U.S.A. I keep forgetting that I'm going to need other equipment in addition to the calipers. I had better watch Marje's video again.

 

[tiffmaxee]

Wow! You had quite a pj party last night! Team Butters did a good job. Somebody really wanted a reduction.

Yes, weighing didn’t help. What I eventually did was set the calipers to match the amount in the syringe. Then I would take it up or down by the same amount. I was lost without the calipers because I was increasing and decreasing by less than quarter units. I also realized that the marks on the syringes were not all started at the same point. With a human it doesn’t mean much but with cats it can. Max was very carb sensitive and also once tightly regulated insulin sensitive.

 

[Briere Fur Mom]

I keep forgetting that I'm going to need other equipment in addition to the calipers. I had better watch Marje's video again.

You don't need anything else besides the calipers. The other goodies are just to make it easier to see. I'm 43 yrs old but, I tell ya...these eyes are starting to do some strange things. You wouldn't think seeing things up close would be a problem LOLThe aging body in all it's glory
Some people use magnifying glasses with reading glasses. You get the idea. W/e works for you.

 

[Laurasboyz]

Where do Canadians buy theirs from? I haven't been able to find the equivalent ones online, and not yet come across a thread with a recommendation on a specific pair to use with the BD syringes having a lip that sticks out right along the top of the syringe.

There are way too many options online at Amazon and big box stores....I would rather know what someone else has had success with before I shell out more $$$ on something, they have used that works with the BD syringes and that funny lip on them.

@Wendy&Neko @Laurasboyz you were talking about dosing with calipers recently. Would you be able to recommend something? And I apologize if you have been asked this a million times...I can't find a recommendation in an old thread yet.

Thanks so much.

Hi!
I checked Lee Valley and Princess Auto... I figured if any places were likely to have a decent selection, they would, and found them at Princess Auto... that's a national chain, I do believe?
The brand I bought were Titan.... 6" (they had nothing shorter, but 4" were recommended here).
They were $24.99 plus tax and there was a more expensive option for shy of $50 but these seemed to do everything required, maybe not to the nth decimal point as the more expensive ones.

Now, as far as getting them to work with the BD syringes, that's the type of syringe I have and I found it very, very difficult to determine, say, a 0.1 measurement.
I had wondered if the calipers would work better with a different brand syringe - Terumo was the brand in the videos...
You might have better luck than me?

Edited to add: The videos show the demonstration using the big "outside" measuring bits that are at the bottom of the calipers, so that the amount if insulin is the space between the two guides, but I was told that using the top ones, the "inside" measuring bits, was easier...

 

[tiffmaxee]

Terumo were the best syringes but they stopped making them. Marje went through a whole process figuring out the increments. I wouldn’t even begin to know how to do that.

 

[Red & Rover (GA)]

Terumo were the best syringes but they stopped making them. Marje went through a whole process figuring out the increments. I wouldn’t even begin to know how to do that.

I miss the Terumo syringes and I don't even have a cat never mind a diabetic one.

 

[Briere Fur Mom]

Now, as far as getting them to work with the BD syringes,

I used the BDs. Only got through a bag...didn't like them. I think @Sonia & Leo uses BDs (I could be wrong about that). BDs have a lip at the top of the barrel that makes it difficult to line the calipers up just so. I used sure comfort for the action of the syringe and no real discernable lip at the top of the barrel. I think I've heard mention with BDs you use side of the caliper that measures inner diameter. Could be wrong about that too

 

[Laurasboyz]

Hi again,
I had to look back at my content to be sure I was quoting the right person who helped me...
Wendy wrote, with regard to the BD syringes:

With the BD syringes, I used the smaller arms of the calipers. The ones you have touching the syringe in that picture. I needed to find a pair of calipers with really thin arms to fit under the lip of the ring around the top of the syringes. The biggest thing I found with the BD's is that the zero line was often really out of whack, sometimes had as much as 1/3 of a unit of insulin under the zero line. So I pushed the plunger up hard to start, to see where the real zero was, then used that for the one arm of the caliper.

Laura

 

[Ti-Mousse (GA) Pepe (GA)]

I'm using BD Ultrafine (Canada), so our measurement for calipers with those syringes is 1.5mm = 1 unit.
Because the way BD are made, we have to use the small arms, no choice...
As lines markings are never the same, we can't measure from them. On our syringes, plunger goes up to the barrel, so measurement starts from there; this is our "0" point. We align calipers flush to the barrel and we can have a consistent dosage every time !

I've been using 6" digital calipers since the beginning because Ti-Mousse is a fussy kitty... Good luck !!

 

[Butters & Lyla]

Wow! You had quite a pj party last night! Team Butters did a good job. Somebody really wanted a reduction.

Team Butters was so amazing! And I'm happy to report that Butters is going to let us get a few hours of sleep tonight.

You don't need anything else besides the calipers. The other goodies are just to make it easier to see. I'm 43 yrs old but, I tell ya...these eyes are starting to do some strange things. You wouldn't think seeing things up close would be a problem LOLThe aging body in all it's glory
Some people use magnifying glasses with reading glasses. You get the idea. W/e works for you.

Yeah I'm right there with you and am going to need all the things. I have one eye that is near sighted and one that is far sighted (always been this way), which makes it difficult to focus....but I think there may be some aging body stuff going on here, too.

 

[Butters & Lyla]

Hi!
I checked Lee Valley and Princess Auto... I figured if any places were likely to have a decent selection, they would, and found them at Princess Auto... that's a national chain, I do believe? The brand I bought were Titan.... 6" (they had nothing shorter, but 4" were recommended here).
...Now, as far as getting them to work with the BD syringes, that's the type of syringe I have and I found it very, very difficult to determine, say, a 0.1 measurement.
.

Thank you for this! I will also look into both of these places. Looks like they are less expensive than the Mastercraft ones. Thanks for pulling in the info Wendy gave you, too.

 

[Laurasboyz]

Because the way BD are made, we have to use the small arms, no choice...
As lines markings are never the same, we can't measure from them. On our syringes, plunger goes up to the barrel, so measurement starts from there; this is our "0" point. We align calipers flush to the barrel and we can have a consistent dosage every time !

Lyane,

I hope this is not a really dumb question... so what you are saying is to measure either distance A or distance C, not try to measure distance B, as per this very quickly sketched photo? (see attached)
If I'm on the right track, which one do you use, A or C?
Laura
PS
Bon anniversaire

 

[Laurasboyz]

Thank you for this! I will also look into both of these places. Looks like they are less expensive than the Mastercraft ones. Thanks for pulling in the info Wendy gave you, too.

No problem, I am trying to understand this myself, and I realize now, I think, that I was a total dumb a$$ and trying to measure the wrong part of the syringe... hopefully @Ti-Mousse will tell me how dumb I am!

 

[Butters & Lyla]

@Ti-Mousse thank you for explaining where to measure from on the BD syringes. So if I understand correctly, is the starting point from the top lip of the barrel just below where the needle is? Hopefully using the small arms isn't that difficult.

Seems like so many Canadians are using BD syringes. @Briere Fur Mom I do not like them either, but I think our options are pretty limited in Canada. I have tried to find different brands, but couldn't get anything else with the 6mm 31g needles that I like to use.

 

[Butters & Lyla]

No problem, I am trying to understand this myself, and I realize now, I think, that I was a total dumb a$$ and trying to measure the wrong part of the syringe... hopefully @Ti-Mousse will tell me how dumb I am!

I'm pretty sure it is "B"...but let's see what the experts say You start from where the black plunger meets the top of the barrel, and you measure the insulin that you draw up in the barrel. So in essence, you are measuring your insulin dose. That's where Marje measures from in her video and I'm pretty sure that is consistent no matter what type of syringe you use.

Trying to measure 0.1 U of insulin sounds incredibly challenging! So many experienced people like Lyane here who can help you, though. You've got this!

 

[Laurasboyz]

I'm pretty sure it is "B"...but let's see what the experts say You start from where the black plunger meets the top of the barrel, and you measure the insulin that you draw up in the barrel. So in essence, you are measuring your insulin dose. That's where Marje measures from in her video and I'm pretty sure that is consistent no matter what type of syringe you use. Trying to measure 0.1 U of insulin sounds incredibly challenging! So many experienced people like Lyane here who can help you, though. You've got this!

Now I'm anxious to hear from Lyane, because I was trying to do "B", as per the videos, but when Wendy said to use the outside measurement calipers it now kinda makes sense that if you drive the plunger in/down all the way, and then measure it from the end farthest from the needle as it slides out, as in "A" or "C", you could probably get an accurate dose more easily.
Maybe... LOL.
I guess we'll soon find out!
For me, my critter is off insulin right now but if he goes back on, this will be important to get this down, so...
I am actually very glad you brought this up!
Laura

 

[Ti-Mousse (GA) Pepe (GA)]

So if I understand correctly, is the starting point from the top lip of the barrel just below where the needle is? Hopefully using the small arms isn't that difficult.

Now I'm anxious to hear from Lyane, because I was trying to do "B", as per the videos, but when Wendy said to use the outside measurement calipers it now kinda makes sense that if you drive the plunger in/down all the way, and then measure it from the end farthest from the needle as it slides out, as in "A" or "C", you could probably get an accurate dose more easily.

Using calipers with the BD syringes is easy, you just have to push the plunger all the way in, this is your "zero" point. Then you draw the insulin until you get the exact measurement as per your calipers setting. When you'll get used to it, you won't be able to shoot without them.

Thanks Laura for the Anniversaire !!

hopefully @Ti-Mousse will tell me how dumb I am!

No dumb there... it took me a little while to get used to them !!

 

[Laurasboyz]

Using calipers with the BD syringes is easy, you just have to push the plunger all the way in, this is your "zero" point. Then you draw the insulin until you get the exact measurement as per your calipers setting. When you'll get used to it, you won't be able to shoot without them.

Still dumb here... LOL... So, you are measuring from the needle end, like "B" in my little drawing???
Or from the other end, like "A" or "C"?
Maybe you can't see my attached photo?

(PPS - c'est la meme jour que ma mere)

 

[Ti-Mousse (GA) Pepe (GA)]

Still dumb here... LOL... So, you are measuring from the needle end, like "B" in my little drawing???
Or from the other end, like "A" or "C"?
Maybe you can't see my attached photo?

(PPS - c'est la meme jour que ma mere)

Yes, you're measuring from the end of the plunger (needle side);
In the "Plunger pushed in" photo, you see the plunger pushed all the way in, to the lip of the ring;
Then you draw the insulin according with your calipers measurement; make sure calipers are always set to "mm" and not "inches".
In the "Measuring" photo, calipers are set to 8.26mm; so the syringe is ready to shoot 5.25u (I should have set them to 8.25mm to be exact, but it's just an example for you to see).

Before shooting I look at the markings on the syringe to make sure it's around the dose I need (in case I would have made a mistake setting up calipers... I would not want to shoot 12u instead of 5u !! )

If it's not clear, let me know! Shooting with calipers is the only way to always have consistent dosing.

 

[Laurasboyz]

If it's not clear, let me know! Shooting with calipers is the only way to always have consistent dosing.

Thank you for the pictures..
I was trying to measure tiny amounts, way less than a quarter unit and given that a quarter unit measures 0.375 mm, I think, unless I am totally missing something, that measuring small amounts from that end of the BD syringe is difficult, no matter which calipers I use, the inside ones, or the outside ones... unless I am really missing something.
Which totally I might be...
I was thinking that measuring how far to pull the plunger out from the other end would be a larger number, and perhaps easier to measure - push the plunger fully in, insert it in the vial, and then pull back the plunger to a set measurement - the gap between the finger stop and the end of the plunger.
I hope that explanation makes sense...
I'll work on that.
Laura

 

[Ti-Mousse (GA) Pepe (GA)]

Thank you for the pictures..
I was trying to measure tiny amounts, way less than a quarter unit and given that a quarter unit measures 0.375 mm, I think, unless I am totally missing something, that measuring small amounts from that end of the BD syringe is difficult, no matter which calipers I use, the inside ones, or the outside ones... unless I am really missing something.
Which totally I might be...
I was thinking that measuring how far to pull the plunger out from the other end would be a larger number, and perhaps easier to measure - push the plunger fully in, insert it in the vial, and then pull back the plunger to a set measurement - the gap between the finger stop and the end of the plunger.
I hope that explanation makes sense...
I'll work on that.
Laura

I wish I had experience with very low doses.... but unfotunately my Ti-Mousse is far from there yet.....!! So can't help with that!
Hope cerenia is helping Toeby and that his vet exam tomorrow goes well !