? 8/09 Butters AMPS 119/+1 281/+3 299/+7 290/PMPS 234/+2 245/+4 270/ using calipers w/ BD syringes

Butters & Lyla

Butters & Lyla

Member Since 2020
Yesterday Butters bounced. With an AMPS this morning of 119, it looks like she has cleared the bounce...I think.

This morning is our third cycle shooting .5U since reducing from .75U. So (I think) today we may be able to tell if the reduced dose is working, or if her numbers go back up from here then it may be a failed reduction. I don't think she would bounce from a 119.

Have a lovely day/evening, all!
 
Nice start this morning.
Butters, you're going the wrong way. I wonder if she snuck down to the lagoon last night while you were sleeping. I would not at all be surprised with this girl:rolleyes:
Be good butters:cat:
Be good Lyla LOL!!!! You know what I mean:p
 
I should have checked her overnight!!! :arghh: I thought about it but was so zonked. I’m going to have to just be a big girl and start getting some nighttime tests in. Who needs sleep anyways?! :rolleyes:
I will tryyyyy to be good :D:p;)
Butters on the other hand...who knows :cat::cat:
Have a great day!
 
Butters & Lyla said:
I should have checked her overnight!!! :arghh: I thought about it but was so zonked. I’m going to have to just be a big girl and start getting some nighttime tests in. Who needs sleep anyways?! :rolleyes:
I will tryyyyy to be good :D:p;)
Butters on the other hand...who knows :cat::cat:
Have a great day!
Click to expand...
You sound exactly like I use. I had the hardest time getting up for mid cycle tests. My SS's reflects it too:rolleyes:
 
I am not clear how to set "zero" on the digital calipers when using the inside jaws. I've played around with them, and find that .75mm (for .5U insulin in a BD syringe) is not the same distance apart on the outside jaws and the inside jaws. I need to use the inside jaws. Am I missing something? Do I need to open the calipers a bit first from full closed position and zero out for using inside jaws?

THey did not come with an instruction manual and I can't figure out how to do it from the internet!
 
My syringes are 3/10ml BD Ultrafine II. Butters' dose is .5U, which is supposed to be a distance of .75mm. I tried to measure .75mm distance on the inside jaws, and then held them up to 20 different syringes to see how far down the barrel the jaw would be.

Each time I started with my calipers in the fully up/closed position. Then turned on the digital screen and made sure it said 0. Then I rolled them open until the screen said .75mm. I locked it in place, and then held the inside jaws up to 20 different BD syringes. I pressed one caliper jaw against the edge of the plastic lip located at the top of the syringe barrel. The other caliper jaw comes nowhere even close to the .5U marking on any of the 20 syringes I measured them against. I am definitely missing something. I feel like a huge dummy.

Then I decided to just measure with the calipers from the plastic lip down to the .5U marking on the 20 syringes and I am getting a measurement on my calipers of anywhere from 1.75mm to 2.20mm, so nowhere near the .75mm that the distance is supposed to be. I must be doing something terribly wrong. Since I have been currently eyeballing Butters' doses, I am just going to set the calipers so that they come closer to the .5U line for now, probably at an average of between 1.75mm and 2.20mm, and stick with that until I figure out where I am going wrong.

@Ti-Mousse or @Sonia & Leo

Thank you! :bighug:
 
The thing is with calipers, once you get the correct measurement for the 1 unit mark you can divide by 10 to get the .10u measurement. For example my measurement on sure comfort for 1 unit was 1.41mm. When I broke that down into tenths it is .141. than it's simple math to make adjustments to your dose. Not trying to confuse you anymore than you're already confused. If someone else has already gotten the measurement and done the math for that particular syringe type....use theirs. What I just explained is finding your own measurement.
If I remember correctly when using BDs you line the caliper jaw up under the lip. As you've already noticed your caliper measurement isn't the same as just eyeballing the .5 on the syringe.
If you think it might be more appropriate to wait until you get a correct answer from Ti-Mousse or Sonia maybe hold off on dosing with the calipers?


ETA: When you use calipers you don't reference the lines on the syringe. The important part is the placement of the calipers on the syringe with the appropriate caliper measurement(mm). Hope that made sense.
 
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Yeah don't listen to me about the BDs. I just pulled an old one out and tried to measure using Ti-Mousse's method. BDs aren't the easiest syringes are they? With that lip and a plunger that doesn't want to rise all the way to the top. Baaah BD:mad: But don't listen to me. Some peeps adore BDs.

Butters & Lyla said:
Then I decided to just measure with the calipers from the plastic lip down to the .5U marking on the 20 syringes and I am getting a measurement on my calipers of anywhere from 1.75mm to 2.20mm, so nowhere near the .75mm that the distance is supposed to be. I must be doing something terribly wrong. Since I have been currently eyeballing Butters' doses, I am just going to set the calipers so that they come closer to the .5U line for now, probably at an average of between 1.75mm and 2.20mm, and stick with that until I figure out where I am going wrong.
Click to expand...

I measured the 1 unit marking on the BDs and they are 1.5mm. I just measured from the 1 unit mark to the 2 unit mark. Those markings are correct on syringes....it's just the position of the lines on the syringe that's incorrect. It's like they jostle around a little in the tray (or h/e they manufacture syringes) prior to being "stamped" essentially. The actual measurements are still correct.

The dose you gave Butters is probably closer to what she's been getting; which was definitely not .5u as you can see now. Syringes are sooo inaccurate. And it really can make a difference in a kittys dose unfortunately. I'm sorry no one got back with you about the BDs in time for PMPS. Ti-Mousse and Sonia aren't on the board a lot anymore. Wendy and Neko are not on the board ATM but, I think she used BDs too. Hopefully she can give you some advice as well.:bighug:
 
In general, if the +2 is similar to the PMPS, it does bear watching.

From: The Basics: New to the Group? Start here!

Example of an ACTIVE, but NOT necessarily typical Lantus/Basaglar cycle:
NOTE: Until kitty is pretty well regulated, the description below is NOT not what you'd consider a "typical" Lantus/Basaglar cycle. It takes time and patience for kitty to achieve a "typical" cycle! The example below is what you're working towards (a nice shallow curve). A relatively flat cycle is the ultimate goal.

+0 - PreShot number.
+1 - Usually higher than PreShot number because of the last shot wearing off. May see a food spike in this number.
+2 - Often similar to the PreShot number. Onset begins around +2 for most cats. You'll probably see an active cycle if the +2 is the same/similar OR lower than the preshot number. Continue testing!
+3 - Often lower than the PreShot number.
+4 - Lower.
+5 - Lower.
+6 - Nadir/Peak (the lowest number of cycle. NOTE: ECID. Not every cat has a mid-cycle nadir. Adjust the hours on this example to fit your cat.)
+7 - Surf (hang around the nadir number).
+8 - Slight rise.
+9 - Slight rise.
+10 - Rising.
+11 - Rising (one of the quirks of Lantus/Basaglar/Levemir: some cat's blood glucose numbers dip around +10 or +11... not to be confused with nadir).
+12 - PreShot number.
​
And then sometimes a person has no clue what's going to happen. Cats like to keep us on our toes.
 
Briere Fur Mom said:
Yeah don't listen to me about the BDs. I just pulled an old one out and tried to measure using Ti-Mousse's method. BDs aren't the easiest syringes are they? With that lip and a plunger that doesn't want to rise all the way to the top. Baaah BD:mad: But don't listen to me. Some peeps adore BDs.

I measured the 1 unit marking on the BDs and they are 1.5mm. I just measured from the 1 unit mark to the 2 unit mark. Those markings are correct on syringes....it's just the position of the lines on the syringe that's incorrect. It's like they jostle around a little in the tray (or h/e they manufacture syringes) prior to being "stamped" essentially. The actual measurements are still correct.

The dose you gave Butters is probably closer to what she's been getting; which was definitely not .5u as you can see now. Syringes are sooo inaccurate. And it really can make a difference in a kittys dose unfortunately. I'm sorry no one got back with you about the BDs in time for PMPS. Ti-Mousse and Sonia aren't on the board a lot anymore. Wendy and Neko are not on the board ATM but, I think she used BDs too. Hopefully she can give you some advice as well.:bighug:
Click to expand...

Oh my gosh! I played around with the calipers some more, and like it is clear that when I measure from the .5 unit mark to the 1 unit mark, the distance is .75mm. But when I measure from the top of the barrel with the plunger pushed all the way in, down to the .5U mark, the distance is more than double that! I measured on 20 different syringes. Which means, Butters has been getting waaay more than .5U of insulin, even though I have been eyeballing her dosages to that .5U mark. It is more than that.

I feel like I am doing something terribly wrong and I cannot figure out what it is.

ETA: I meant to say I measured from the bottom of the lip of the plastic piece, not from the top of the plunger. Maybe that's why my numbers are higher...?
 
Butters & Lyla said:
I feel like I am doing something terribly wrong and I cannot figure out what it is.
Click to expand...
I bet if you line up those 20 syringes, the marks won't quite be in the same place.
It's all down to the printer and machinery at the factory. The syringes are made for humans who have much, much higher doses. That is why the small syringes can hold 30 units. It does not make any difference if a human's dose is a tiny bit higher.

Edit: I've fixed the typo. 3 units should have been 30 units.
 
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Briere Fur Mom said:
The dose you gave Butters is probably closer to what she's been getting; which was definitely not .5u as you can see now. Syringes are sooo inaccurate. And it really can make a difference in a kittys dose unfortunately. I'm sorry no one got back with you about the BDs in time for PMPS. Ti-Mousse and Sonia aren't on the board a lot anymore. Wendy and Neko are not on the board ATM but, I think she used BDs too. Hopefully she can give you some advice as well.:bighug:
Click to expand...

Thank you for checking them for me! So sweet of you! :bighug:See what I mean....sigh.

I set the calipers to an average measurement based on the 20 syringes that I measured from the bottom of the plastic lip to the .5U marking, so that her dose would stay around what I had been giving her for the past three cycles. I'm very comfortable with doing it this way for now, until someone is able to give me more advice.

@Marje and Gracie in her video says to check that the calipers are not too far off from the unit marking on the barrel for the dose you are supposed to shoot. When I tried measuring .75mm from the top of the plastic lip, the bottom caliper barely even makes it to the "zero" line on the BD. I know the .75mm is correct; I know I must be doing something wrong :confused:.

ETA: I don't want to tag you again, Marje, but if you do have a moment, if you happen to know what I'm doing wrong would you mind helping me? THis is not in any way urgent. Thank you so much.
 
Red & Rover (GA) said:
I bet if you line up those 20 syringes, the marks won't quite be in the same place.
It's all down to the printer and machinery at the factory. The syringes are made for humans who have much, much higher doses. That is why the small syringes can hold 3 units. It does not make any difference if a human's dose is a tiny bit higher.
Click to expand...

Yeah! Exactly this. It's why I averaged out the measurements I got using calipers on the 20 syringes: every measurement I got was different! It's scary.

Thank you so much for copying the hourly BG numbers guidance materials into here...I had completely forgotten about that. SO much to remember.
 
Red & Rover (GA) said:
The PMPS (234) is much lower than the +7 (290).

It could be an active night.

Can you get a +1 and a +2?
Click to expand...
Sue and Luci said:
Could be that old yellow bounce is getting ready to break...let's hope so!
Click to expand...

Too bad, she decided to go up, instead. 270 @+4. That would indicate she's probably not going to drop tonight, or not anytime soon at least. I will set an alarm for +7...in case maybe she'll start to break later? Hope that makes sense.
 
You should be okay. Give her some LC and leave some LC out for her. I say this because so far it's been a fairly flat cycle. Grab a test (just in case) if you wake up to use the bathroom.

G'night.
 
Lyla


Butters & Lyla said:
Thank you for checking them for me! So sweet of you! :bighug:See what I mean....sigh.

I set the calipers to an average measurement based on the 20 syringes that I measured from the bottom of the plastic lip to the .5U marking, so that her dose would stay around what I had been giving her for the past three cycles. I'm very comfortable with doing it this way for now, until someone is able to give me more advice.

@Marje and Gracie in her video says to check that the calipers are not too far off from the unit marking on the barrel for the dose you are supposed to shoot. When I tried measuring .75mm from the top of the plastic lip, the bottom caliper barely even makes it to the "zero" line on the BD. I know the .75mm is correct; I know I must be doing something wrong :confused:.

ETA: I don't want to tag you again, Marje, but if you do have a moment, if you happen to know what I'm doing wrong would you mind helping me? THis is not in any way urgent. Thank you so much.
Click to expand...
No problem with tagging me twice :) I’m just not on the board much lately on advising as I’ve been working on some other board things so if you need me and I don’t respond to a tag, please PM me as I always get those to my email.

I have not ever used those BD syringes and Wendy is the one that figured out that with those BD Ultrafine Ii syringes, you have to use the other arms. Unfortunately, Wendy is on vacation for a week. I will tell you that on the Monoject syringes I originally used and measured, the zero line was so off on some that my measurement per my calipers for 1u sometimes looked say more on those syringes. I got to where I never even looked at the lines on the syringes....I knew my measurement and how much each dose was and that’s how I dosed.

The complication here is that now it seems her dose has actually been more than 0.5u (0.75mm) because what you’ve been eyeballing on the syringe and thinking is 0.5u is now much more.

If you can find 20 syringes that seem pretty accurate and you know where you would draw the dose to, measure that and see what you get....or did you do that and I am misunderstanding that you did?

The bottom line is, if you are unsure, I’d err on the side of caution and dose lower and then fast track her back up to a good dose instead of taking the risk of overdosing her. What do you think?
 
Butters & Lyla said:
My syringes are 3/10ml BD Ultrafine II. Butters' dose is .5U, which is supposed to be a distance of .75mm. I tried to measure .75mm distance on the inside jaws, and then held them up to 20 different syringes to see how far down the barrel the jaw would be.

Each time I started with my calipers in the fully up/closed position. Then turned on the digital screen and made sure it said 0. Then I rolled them open until the screen said .75mm. I locked it in place, and then held the inside jaws up to 20 different BD syringes. I pressed one caliper jaw against the edge of the plastic lip located at the top of the syringe barrel. The other caliper jaw comes nowhere even close to the .5U marking on any of the 20 syringes I measured them against. I am definitely missing something. I feel like a huge dummy.

Then I decided to just measure with the calipers from the plastic lip down to the .5U marking on the 20 syringes and I am getting a measurement on my calipers of anywhere from 1.75mm to 2.20mm, so nowhere near the .75mm that the distance is supposed to be. I must be doing something terribly wrong. Since I have been currently eyeballing Butters' doses, I am just going to set the calipers so that they come closer to the .5U line for now, probably at an average of between 1.75mm and 2.20mm, and stick with that until I figure out where I am going wrong.

@Ti-Mousse or @Sonia & Leo

Thank you! :bighug:
Click to expand...
I wish I could help but I'm not sure where is your problem!

When using BD syringes: 1.5mm = 1 u
To use your calipers, you set them to the dosage required (ex: 3mm if shooting 2u)
Push the plunger up to the plastic lip at the top of the barrel, which is your "0" point;
Then draw insulin until the plunger aligns with the lower arm of your calipers.

Those syringes are for humans so small inconsistencies in markings are acceptable, but for kitties it can make a big difference. That's why it's good to rely on calipers instead of markings which will never be the same from one syringe to another. As long as you align with your "0" point and your calipers are well set, you will always have a consistent dosage.

Hope this helps!
 

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Ti-Mousse said:
I wish I could help but I'm not sure where is your problem!
When using BD syringes: 1.5mm = 1 u
To use your calipers, you set them to the dosage required (ex: 3mm if shooting 2u)
Push the plunger up to the plastic lip at the top of the barrel, which is your "0" point;
Then draw insulin until the plunger aligns with the lower arm of your calipers.
Click to expand...

Thank you again for sharing how you measure with BD syringes. You have been so helpful and patient! I am following your instructions exactly. That plastic lip confused me yesterday. I just need to work around it. I feel clumsy with the calipers and like I wish I was an octopus right about now.

QUOTE="Marje and Gracie, post: 2608458, member: 2058"]
The complication here is that now it seems her dose has actually been more than 0.5u (0.75mm) because what you’ve been eyeballing on the syringe and thinking is 0.5u is now much more.
If you can find 20 syringes that seem pretty accurate and you know where you would draw the dose to, measure that and see what you get....or did you do that and I am misunderstanding that you did?
The bottom line is, if you are unsure, I’d err on the side of caution and dose lower and then fast track her back up to a good dose instead of taking the risk of overdosing her. What do you think?[/QUOTE]

I think I am in shock from how different the dose is using the lines vs using the calipers, to the point where I convinced myself I must be doing something wrong when trying to measure the correct distance for a .5U dose. I agree with how you have defined the complication.
Unfortunately, I have not found another option for syringes in my part of Canada. The pharmacies only carry BD.
Yes, that is what I did with 20 syringes. I have been at least dosing her consistently for the last two doses using the calipers, just that I measured out more than the .75mm so that the dose would be in line with what I have been giving (ie much closer to the .5U mark). I think dosing her lower and fast tracking her back up makes sense. I'll have to figure that out.
Thank you for getting back to me!
 
Hi Lyla, Sorry for not answering your tag yesterday, I’m glad you had help from lots of other beans and that Lyane was there to explain how she does her measuring using callipers and BD syringes.

What I learned right away when I started using callipers, is no BD syringes are the same, even when they come out of the same package. :rolleyes: I was shocked by this also, but as others mentioned, not a big deal for a human but very important for dosing a kitty, since we know a drop can make a difference.

I also found that when I made the switch from using the black lines on the syringes as my guide, to measuring using callipers, I was now giving Leo a bit less insulin. That’s ok though, the important thing going forward is consistency and by using callipers you will always have a consistent dose.

The feeling of needing to be an octopus will go away once you get more used to it, lol.

Come on down out of your lemon tree Butters, it's a good day to spend at the beach!

Have a great day Lyla!!
 
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