7/29 kit PMPS 57,+4.25 80,+4.8 79,+5.3 72,+5.8 73,+6.5 66,+7 61,+7.5 55,+8.25 56,+9 64,+9.5 61

JOJI and Kit

Member Since 2019
yesterday
https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB...210-4-75-204-7-5-184-pmps-172-2-5-193.232794/

day 53 in kit's switch to lantus/relion from prozinc/alphatrak2
day 2 of her decrease to 4.5U
day 34 of TR

in between bird watching, napping and breakfast, kit's working on filling that depot today.
she also turned in a rather respectable second night with the cat mate. only a little bit left behind in the locked spot this morning. now, if we could only get her to flip on the coffee pot right before AMPS :coffee:

have a great day everybody,
^jw
 
110 @ 6.5

which feels like a big drop since 2.5 so

gave 0.25oz LC 6%. ate willingly.

definitely want to see her in the greens if possible today, but having to balance ability to monitor closely this afternoon.

let's see what you do kit.
 
91 @ 8
dropping gently, gonna let her continue to ride with no more food.

eta: test again when outside the 2hour food influence ~8.75
 
trimming the title
here's the play-by-play
7/29 kit AMPS183,+2.5 201,+6.5 110,+7 105,+7.5 99,+8 91,+8.75 83,+9.5 79,+10.5 62 still dropping
 
@10.5 + 20min holding with a 64

not sure if she wants a reduction or is playing the game of slide into the plate at PMPS. oy!
 
I’d see if she wants a reduction. I just was checking my emails.
we have not fed and are just testing like every 20min ...
anything else we should be doing?
and if she goes below 50 then we give HC at this late point in the cycle?

totally new scenario for us here. don't have a plan
 
If she goes below 50 you can give hc I think. It would be surprising so late in the cycle. That must have been a partial fur shot after all the other day.
 
If she goes below 50 you can give hc I think. It would be surprising so late in the cycle. That must have been a partial fur shot after all the other day.
getting pretty darn close.

ok, so the if we give HC what does that mean for the PM cycle ?

eta in t-12 min she'll be at just 2hours without food
 
I personally think that it’s turning out that she needed that .50 reduction after all. You could feed her now some mc and see if she comes up so as not to mess with the PMPS.
 
I personally think that it’s turning out that she needed that .50 reduction after all. You could feed her now some mc and see if she comes up so as not to mess with the PMPS.

so if we feed her now that means
1. we reduce by 0.5U
2. we shoot knowing the PMPS is food influenced.

is that what you mean?
 
She seems to get a pretty good food bump (from the +1's on your spreadsheet) so keep that in mind.

You are not shooting the number your cat is at now – you are shooting the number your cat will be at when the insulin kicks in. You need to know what that number will be. You are then using the lag time (aka overlap and carryover) to your advantage. It is important to note that while Levemir may typically have a later onset than Lantus or Basaglar, that is not true for every cat. Know thy cat.

There is no one-size-fits all answer, but there are some general guidelines. As with everything else, each cat is different (ECID) and each caregiver is different too.

The short answer is that most kitties can be shot at +12, almost regardless of the number, once you are data ready to do so. The exception is that shooting 30s or 40s is not recommended for most cats, so if a cat is lower then usually the best option is to wait until they are at a shootable number to shoot. What constitutes a shootable number will vary by cat, but we don't suggest or recommend shooting a preshot number less than 50. While you’re waiting, the depot is draining, so you want to get the insulin in as soon as it makes sense to shoot.

If it is your first time shooting green, then we will likely suggest that you stall the first time, even if the number is 80-100. That will let you collect data on what your cat will do when you stall. One thing you can do if you are having a low cycle is to get a +10 and +11. Those will give you a good idea of how quickly the cat’s numbers are rising (or not) when preshot time arrives.

Beyond the general guidelines, there are other factors we consider when we are helping someone with a low preshot.
  • If the low preshot is not part of that cat’s normal pattern or there is reason to think something might be wrong, we will be more conservative.
  • If the cat is not a food spiker or tends to have an early onset/early nadir then they may not want to shoot as low. If the cat has a late nadir, then they will HAVE to learn to shoot low.
  • We will also be more conservative in some cases because of the person – if you are not able to monitor then you want to be more careful, or if you are not sure that you can get back to the board to keep us updated throughout the cycle. Trust me, if you shoot low, we will be watching for your updates and we will worry if we don’t see them.
  • We have to be a lot more careful with the cats who eat only dry food, because they don’t have access to the tools the rest of us use to keep our cats safe.
  • Also, when it comes to very low preshots, there is an unwritten rule that whoever helps that person shoot low should expect to sit with them through any low parts of the cycle. There have been times when I knew a cat’s number was likely shootable, but I also knew that I could not be around to help if the shot resulted in low numbers later in the cycle. For safety’s sake, if I could not find someone else who would be available to support for the next several hours, I would most likely suggest that the shot be reduced or skipped. I will not encourage someone to shoot low and then abandon them.
  • There are a lot of other scenarios, and you always want to keep your cat in mind.
Some general rules when stalling (ECID):
  • 50s or higher – don’t feed. The number will bump up on its own soon due to the insulin wearing off.
  • 40s or lower – you have a couple of choices.
    • When 40s occur at the end of the cycle, it can be beneficial to withhold food and test in 15-20 minutes to determine if kitty is on the rise or hasn’t reached nadir yet.
    • If they are hanging in the 40s for a while, or if they are still dropping, it is ok to feed a tsp or two of LC and retest. This is very tricky. You want to avoid feeding too much while you’re waiting for them to go over 50, because you don’t want to artificially inflate the number with food.
      • Example: if kitty is 43 and you feed a whole meal, or feed some HC, and the number bumps up to 52, is that the cat’s natural end-of-cycle rise, or is it food spike? What if it is food spike? Then if you shoot the 52, when the food wears off he might drop back to the 40’s (and when insulin kicks in a couple of hours later, you might have a problem). If the 52 is the cat’s natural rise, then he will probably keep rising for the next few hours until insulin kicks in. If you can’t tell whether the number is food spike or natural rise, it’s safest to wait. Your data will help you here. Study the spreadsheet. How much food spike does the cat usually get? How many hours after the shot does the insulin’s onset usually occur in this cat? At what number is the cat likely to be when onset occurs? If the cat does drop, how easy/hard is it to regain control of the numbers? How carb sensitive is he?
  • Test often (every 15-20 minutes, or at most every 30 minutes). You want to catch the rise the minute it starts. With most of our cats, once they start to rise they will really zoom. You want to get the insulin in as soon as possible, because it will be another 2-3 hours before the insulin kicks in and you don’t want to let the cycle get too far ahead of you.
Perhaps the most important guideline in shooting low is that any time you shoot your lowest ever number, you should get a +1 and +2 to give you an idea of how the cycle will go. If the +1 is not higher than PS, or if +2 is much lower than PS, that means “pay attention” over the next few hours. Those tests will also help you become even more data ready for the next time you are presented with a low preshot reading.

Using the overlap by shooting low is a great way to take advantage of Lantus/Levemir’s long, flat cycles, once you have learned to do so safely.

~ written by Libby and Lucy
 
I think she’s going to solve the question for us. I predict another reduction soon. I think it will be .25 as at this point you aren’t in the high dose situation but you have time to see what others think.

I’d feed her regular food to start tonight and see what she does with it.

I would not reduce tonight. She didn’t earn it yet.
 
I think she’s going to solve the question for us. I predict another reduction soon.
We cross posted so want to make sure you saw that I would not decrease tonight.

ok, so if she's 50 or above at PMPS, no reduction. got it.

I’d feed her regular food to start tonight and see what she does with it.
yeah, when she is in the 60's for PMPS we give an entire LC meal rather than the mixed LC + tiki.
 
No reduction, she didn’t go below 50. If she does go below 50, take a 0.5 unit reduction. I will tell you why the 0.5, which isn’t really protocol. Protocol doesn’t even mention 0.5 increases above five units, that’s just our experience. Original version of the TR protocol said 0.5 unit changes if kitty is on “higher doses”. With Neko, who was a special case cause she was seeing radiation therapy changes plus IAA breaking, 0.5 unit reductions worked until about 3.5 units. Turns out I later found a document with the old TR referencing high doses as around that size. And I have seen it in one or two other cats, not all. For Kit, cause she was higher dose but we don’t know why, and she held her last 0.5 unit reduction and is still on a highest dose, I would try the 0.5 one more time. If this is simple glucose toxicity breaking or whatever, I see a change in her. Worst case the 0.5 fails and you go up 0.25 units. Best case, more sleep.
 
No reduction, she didn’t go below 50. If she does go below 50, take a 0.5 unit reduction. I will tell you why the 0.5, which isn’t really protocol. Protocol doesn’t even mention 0.5 increases above five units, that’s just our experience. Original version of the TR protocol said 0.5 unit changes if kitty is on “higher doses”. With Neko, who was a special case cause she was seeing radiation therapy changes plus IAA breaking, 0.5 unit reductions worked until about 3.5 units. Turns out I later found a document with the old TR referencing high doses as around that size. And I have seen it in one or two other cats, not all. For Kit, cause she was higher dose but we don’t know why, and she held her last 0.5 unit reduction and is still on a highest dose, I would try the 0.5 one more time. If this is simple glucose toxicity breaking or whatever, I see a change in her. Worst case the 0.5 fails and you go up 0.25 units. Best case, more sleep.

we shot 4.5U, so no reduction this cycle.
thanks for all those details on the 0.5 and high dose. we've been digging thru all the things to read and couldn't find it in the proto.
so when/if she goes <50 next, we will reduce by 0.5U


I’d get a +1 and +2
and a +3 bc onset ;)


thanks for all the help.:bighug:

now we have added one more learning scenario to our "adventures with kit" :bookworm:
 
She seems to get a pretty good food bump (from the +1's on your spreadsheet) so keep that in mind.
Good job!! Always something new to learn with these sugarcats since they're all individuals! They all staunchly refuse to read the rules too!

thanks for jumping in on our crazy ride!
seat belts on; helmets strapped firmly under chin.
 
So I have a question in case this comes up again. Joji was increasing at ,25 until she hit 5.0 and then started .50 increases. At what point will she go back to decreasing at .25 increments?
 
113 @+3
not feeding, let's see what she does.
test again a little after +4 to see where she is after 2 hours of no food support
 
Nice job shooting!:D:D:D

05c01df9-cfe6-42fc-80f5-8d68c8acfaca-gif.49063

I figured I'd give you my BOS. I don't have use for them anymore and you've DEF earned them! Dust them off because they haven't been used in a while.:p:D:woot:
 
At what point will she go back to decreasing at .25 increments?
The answer is not one size fits all. In Kit's case specifically, the answer is when 0.5 decreases fail. In the back of my mind is the thought that Kit was seeing some glucose toxicity, which is now broken. When that happens, there can be a bit of a crazy ride down dose for a spell. Being at a higher dose can make for some overfull depot. These last couple larger decreases may be all she needed. Time will tell.
 
80 @4.25 and not fed for just over 2 hours
deciding what to feed next...

eta: going with 0.25oz MC 15%. eating willingly. test again in 30min just before +5
 
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