My first try in making raw meat! Please give comments

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PH&MonkeyPenPenFaFaTiger

PH&MonkeyPenPenFaFaTiger

Member Since 2020
I am going to use Dr.Lisa's recipe. She suggest using oven to kill the bacteria on surface of a chicken.

Currently I can only find chicken drumstick but not thighs Is that a problem, like the bone to meat ratio.

So here is what I do to a chicken drumstick. Brake the chicken in 250 Celsius degree for about 5 mins. Please see the picture. The right one is the surface cooked. The left one is completely raw.

Is the meat safe to eat? Also, when I touch the meat with my finger, it feels safe except there is some very small piece of bone. Please see my photo that has a fragment of bone on my finger, that is the largest piece I can find.

Also, if I use drumstick, how can I determine the safest bone to meat ratio, I want to be conservative because all my cats are about 13 to 14, and they never eat raw meat. Thanks god that except FaFa the other three cats seem to like it. (FaFa has bad appetite today)
 

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I have never used chicken bone and I would advise against it. Chicken bone splinters. If it's not sufficiently ground up, it could cause internal damage. When I was grinding food, I used a pre-mix that contained all of the supplements needed. You could always eliminate the bone and use a supplement.

I'm tagging @Marje and Gracie and @Wendy&Neko who are both more knowledgeable about raw food preparation than I am.
 
Good for you, Peter!

I use only ground meat, no bones, with a balanced premix. I don’t know if you can use drumsticks; I’ve only heard of people using thighs and breasts with skin. If you don’t have a really good grinder like Dr. Lisa does, I’d worry about giving any bones.

Maybe try and email her??
 
The raw food diet overwhelms me and make my head explode. :( I read from Dr.Lisa and felinenutrtion.org, they say one should have chicken thigh with bones, and bones are superior to bone meal or calcium supplement. And bone is digestible and safe to eat. But some of you say bone is dangerous. It really confuses me. (especially I spent 150 bucks to buy the equipment and supplements according to Dr Lisa's :confused:)

I think my grinder is decent and it is possible to make the bones extra fine. I have the 2mm holes grinder plate. (Dr Lisa uses 4mm holes)

I should email her but she states that she is taking a break from consultation:([/QUOTE]

I am thinking should I just use bone meal to minimize the risk, especially I have four 14 years old cat that two of them have diabetes and one of them have CKD:arghh: @Bron and Sheba (GA)
 
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Peter, if you can get a premix in HongKong with all the correct supplements in it, that would be much easier for you to use. There are some premises that are for crd cats that use egg shell powder for the calcium component. Then you would not need to worry about the bone component.
If you are looking for something to replace the bone component for your CRD cat, you can use egg shell powder as a substitute for bone or bone meal. It is an excellent substitute and you could use it for all the cats.you don’t want to use a bone meal for a crd cat as it is to high in phosphorus as @Red & Rover (GA) said.
If you look in the link below about making food for a CRD cat, you will see the use of egg shell powder there.
I make my own ESP but you can buy it from iherb.com
Here is the link again to making a crd diet for a cat
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/home-prepared-diet-of-crd-cats.150441/
 
I did initially feed my fur gang raw food with ground bones. I bought commercial - didn't make it myself. I did get a tour of the raw food manufacturing plant - knew someone who worked there. They used the entire chicken and all it's bones. It is said that if you giving cats bones to chew, you should only do the small, non weight bearing chicken bones like wing tips and necks. For larger animals such as buffalo, beef, kangaroo, lamb - usually bone powder is added instead of grinding the large bones of the animal. I have seen buffalo bone powder for sale online. When Neko got diagnosed with CKD, I moved to either commercial product with bone powder that was lower phosphorus or raw I made myself with premix that had eggshell calcium. Bones can also be constipating, if that is an issue with any of your kitties.
 
Bron and Sheba (GA) said:
shell powder
Click to expand...
Bron and Sheba (GA) said:
Peter, if you can get a premix in HongKong with all the correct supplements in it, that would be much easier for you to use. There are some premises that are for crd cats that use egg shell powder for the calcium component. Then you would not need to worry about the bone component.
If you are looking for something to replace the bone component for your CRD cat, you can use egg shell powder as a substitute for bone or bone meal. It is an excellent substitute and you could use it for all the cats.you don’t want to use a bone meal for a crd cat as it is to high in phosphorus as @Red & Rover (GA) said.
If you look in the link below about making food for a CRD cat, you will see the use of egg shell powder there.
I make my own ESP but you can buy it from iherb.com
Here is the link again to making a crd diet for a cat
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/home-prepared-diet-of-crd-cats.150441/
Click to expand...

https://hk.iherb.com/pr/Now-Foods-Eggshell-Membrane-500-mg-60-Veg-Capsules/63771

Is ESP something like this? I cannot find powder is that exactly egg shell.
 
PH&MonkeyPenPenFaFaTiger said:
Thanks Bron. I think I find it, 250g purely egg shell for 1 buck in China. Just ordered it.
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Peter can you show a photo of the egg shell powder bottle when it arrives please?
It’s really important you get the balance right with the supplements and the food.
You would be best doing a batch of say 500 grams or 1000 grams of food at a time and freezing it if necessary, although I don’t suppose 1000 grams would go far with 4 cats.
 
Bron and Sheba (GA) said:
Peter can you show a photo of the egg shell powder bottle when it arrives please?
It’s really important you get the balance right with the supplements and the food.
You would be best doing a batch of say 500 grams or 1000 grams of food at a time and freezing it if necessary, although I don’t suppose 1000 grams would go far with 4 cats.
Click to expand...

I have read your recipe. Questions:
1.We do not have Kangaroo in Hong Kong. What kind of meat should I use. What I can sure is I can get high quality chicken dumpstick and thighs like this https://www.parknshop.com/en/danish-chicken-thighs-bone-in/p/BP_69805
2. Should I remove the skin or not?
3. Do you think egg york must be cooked?
4. Why can't egg shell powder and taurine pre-mixed with the food? I can mix it with a blender and grinder.
 
PH&MonkeyPenPenFaFaTiger said:
I have read your recipe. Questions:
1.We do not have Kangaroo in Hong Kong. What kind of meat should I use. What I can sure is I can get high quality chicken dumpstick and thighs like this https://www.parknshop.com/en/danish-chicken-thighs-bone-in/p/BP_69805
2. Should I remove the skin or not?
3. Do you think egg york must be cooked?
4. Why can't egg shell powder and taurine pre-mixed with the food? I can mix it with a blender and grinder.
Click to expand...

1. I used kangaroo meat because it was readily available but you can use another meat safely. I would try and use a variety of meats if possible. I feed lamb, beef, turkey and pork as well as chicken.

2. I would leave about 1/3 of the skin on.

3.some people like to cook the egg yoke. I dont, I give it raw. But I used to cook it for Sheba as the raw egg yoke used to give her loose poops. Cooking the egg yoke loses some of the vitamins but you might like to start out cooking them. If you are going to cook the egg yokeS, you could feed the whole egg. That could go in the blender too.

4.yes you could put the taurine and egg shell powder into the blender. You just need to make sure you are putting in the correct amount for the weight of the meat.
With the egg shell powder the amount is 1/8 teaspoon per 100 grams of boneless.meat.I can’t remember the touring amount off n
hand.

what are you doing about the chicken heart, liver and kidney portions?
 
Bron and Sheba (GA) said:
1. I used kangaroo meat because it was readily available but you can use another meat safely. I would try and use a variety of meats if possible. I feed lamb, beef, turkey and pork as well as chicken.

2. I would leave about 1/3 of the skin on.

3.some people like to cook the egg yoke. I dont, I give it raw. But I used to cook it for Sheba as the raw egg yoke used to give her loose poops. Cooking the egg yoke loses some of the vitamins but you might like to start out cooking them. If you are going to cook the egg yokeS, you could feed the whole egg. That could go in the blender too.

4.yes you could put the taurine and egg shell powder into the blender. You just need to make sure you are putting in the correct amount for the weight of the meat.
With the egg shell powder the amount is 1/8 teaspoon per 100 grams of boneless.meat.I can’t remember the touring amount off n
hand.

what are you doing about the chicken heart, liver and kidney portions?
Click to expand...

I have not decide the portion yet. If you don't have suggestions, I will just follow Dr.Lisa recipe. I will just buy the organs separately in wet market. Btw, what is the use of feeding kidney? In China we say "use food that resemble certain organ, to supplement or strength certain organ" So I wonder if feeding kidney can help with CKD:rolleyes:
 
PH&MonkeyPenPenFaFaTiger said:
I have not decide the portion yet. If you don't have suggestions, I will just follow Dr.Lisa recipe. I will just buy the organs separately in wet market. Btw, what is the use of feeding kidney? In China we say "use food that resemble certain organ, to supplement or strength certain organ" So I wonder if feeding kidney can help with CKD:rolleyes:
Click to expand...
No I don't think the kidney would help CRD because it is higher in Phosphorous than ordinary meat.
If you are following Dr Lisa's recipe then you may not need kidney if she doesn't mention it.
Can you tell me the recipe you are following so I can see it please?

What exactly have you decided to do?
Are you going to just use meat and NO bone?
Does the recipe have liver in it?
 
Bron and Sheba (GA) said:
No I don't think the kidney would help CRD because it is higher in Phosphorous than ordinary meat.
If you are following Dr Lisa's recipe then you may not need kidney if she doesn't mention it.
Can you tell me the recipe you are following so I can see it please?

What exactly have you decided to do?
Are you going to just use meat and NO bone?
Does the recipe have liver in it?
Click to expand...

I have not really decided anything yet. Before I decided to follow Dr.Lisa's recipe and use bones. Now I think I will just follow your recipe. I am very flexible. Do you think that your recipe for CKD cats can be apply to my other normal cats? All my cats are about 14 years old.
 
I need to look at all the recipes again Peter. I will try and answer you tomorrow.
I think Lisa Pierson also has a recipe for cats without bones which is good and you could use the egg shell powder in that.
Can you take a photo of all the supplements you have which you will use in the recipe please?
 
Bron and Sheba (GA) said:
I need to look at all the recipes again Peter. I will try and answer you tomorrow.
I think Lisa Pierson also has a recipe for cats without bones which is good and you could use the egg shell powder in that.
Can you take a photo of all the supplements you have which you will use in the recipe please?
Click to expand...

The egg shell powder has arrived. It has very fine texture. It is sourced the eggs from cake factory. It is specifically for pets.
Regarding to the supplement, you can see the photo. The one covered a stick with Chinese words is probiotics. The rightmost one is the egg shell powder

What recipe should i use?
 

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Bron and Sheba (GA) said:
Can you show me the egg shell powder one on its own please Peter with the writing showing...thanks
Click to expand...

It is all Chinese, so I will translate it.

Item title: pure chicken egg shell powder 250g
ingredient: baked egg shell
use: feed cats and dogs, once or twice (2.5ml per scoop) it should be mix with food
Additional explanation: Use at least 60 eggs to produce 250g of powder. Egg shell's membrane is not removed since there is nutritional value for pets. Super fine without the smell of burn. Egg shells are washed three times and baked to in high temperature to kill all the bacteria.
 
I think it would be best if you followed Dr Lisa Piersons recipe and use the supplements she suggests, except you won't be adding the bone but you will use the egg shell powder instead.
Only add the supplements at the end after you have ground the meat.
I'm not sure how much you are planning to do each time but if you only do small batches you will be making it every few days.
You need to freeze it as soon as it is made to keep it fresh and defrost in the fridge each day.
I take mine out of the freezer each night and put it in the fridge for the next day.

With the egg shell powder the correct amount to use is 1/8 teaspoon per 100 grams of meat. So if you are doing 800 grams it would be 1 teaspoon of ESP.
If it was 1000 grams it would be 1 1/4 teaspoons of ESP.
You will need to buy some of those small measuring spoons that measure from 1/8 to 1 teaspoon.

Also make sure you only add the correct amount of liver. It's is only a small amount compared to the other meats. Larger amounts are toxic to cats but they must have some liver.
 
Bron and Sheba (GA) said:
I think it would be best if you followed Dr Lisa Piersons recipe and use the supplements she suggests, except you won't be adding the bone but you will use the egg shell powder instead.
Only add the supplements at the end after you have ground the meat.
I'm not sure how much you are planning to do each time but if you only do small batches you will be making it every few days.
You need to freeze it as soon as it is made to keep it fresh and defrost in the fridge each day.
I take mine out of the freezer each night and put it in the fridge for the next day.

With the egg shell powder the correct amount to use is 1/8 teaspoon per 100 grams of meat. So if you are doing 800 grams it would be 1 teaspoon of ESP.
If it was 1000 grams it would be 1 1/4 teaspoons of ESP.
You will need to buy some of those small measuring spoons that measure from 1/8 to 1 teaspoon.

Also make sure you only add the correct amount of liver. It's is only a small amount compared to the other meats. Larger amounts are toxic to cats but they must have some liver.
Click to expand...

I see. I want to ask that Dr.Lisa Piersons have said she don't recommend her recipe to CKD cats. So do you mean changing it to egg powder is suffcient to CKD cats? I see that your recipe has lower to phos amount by using more egg white. Should I do that too? Also, should i lower the protein and increase the fat content? like 40% protein and 60% fat.

Also, I am not sure how to warm the cold meat for the cats, any idea?
 
I would not lower the protein level. That is only needed when the cat is very advanced with CRD.
If you are going to cook the egg yoke, I would cook the whole egg and put the whole egg in the mix. The cooked egg white adds protein without adding phosphorus. I’m not sure how many eggs you are adding to your mix but make them whole eggs. Just make sure the egg white is cooked.
Yes by using egg shell powder instead of bone meal or bones and adding cooked egg white to the mix will lower the phosphorus levels substantially. That is the diet I fed Sheba and her lab results remained stable.

To warm the food, I plate it up in individual flat plates like saucers and put some hot water in the sink and sit the saucers in the water for 5 minutes or until the food is just warm. Be careful the water isn’t deep or it will spill into the food. Don’t ever microwave the food as that will destroy the vitamins.
 
Bron and Sheba (GA) said:
I would not lower the protein level. That is only needed when the cat is very advanced with CRD.
If you are going to cook the egg yoke, I would cook the whole egg and put the whole egg in the mix. The cooked egg white adds protein without adding phosphorus. I’m not sure how many eggs you are adding to your mix but make them whole eggs. Just make sure the egg white is cooked.
Yes by using egg shell powder instead of bone meal or bones and adding cooked egg white to the mix will lower the phosphorus levels substantially. That is the diet I fed Sheba and her lab results remained stable.

To warm the food, I plate it up in individual flat plates like saucers and put some hot water in the sink and sit the saucers in the water for 5 minutes or until the food is just warm. Be careful the water isn’t deep or it will spill into the food. Don’t ever microwave the food as that will destroy the vitamins.
Click to expand...

I just offer my cat Tiger (who I think is the healthiest) a very small piece of raw meat in a surface cooked chicken, she seems to like it. Now I am monitoring her to see if there would be adverse reaction. Up to this moment, she seems to be completely fine. How can I test if all my cats can adapt to raw meat? I guess giving them bit by bit.

Also, do you have any suggestion for the amount of egg white specifically for FaFa. Moreover, do you have any suggestion regarding to phos binder, I know that u have suggested egg shell is already phos binder, but should I buy it OTC. I don't find it on iherb
 
PH&MonkeyPenPenFaFaTiger said:
Moreover, do you have any suggestion regarding to phos binder, I know that u have suggested egg shell is already phos binder, but should I buy it OTC. I don't find it on iherb
Click to expand...

Egg shells contain calcium but are lower in phosphorus. They are not a "phosphorus binder".

In cat foods, there are 2 usual ways to add the calcium they need to the food. One is by grinding bones and the other is egg shells.

Bones are high in phosphorus though, so using egg shells for calcium instead of bone means the cat food will be lower in phosphorus naturally.
 
I don’t think you need phosphorus binder yet if the phos is within normal limits. Post the lab result and ask Marje. She can tell you that. I never used it.

I fed Sheba 1/2 to 1 egg white a day. Depending how much she would eat. I hard boiled the eggs and mashed the white.
I would try all the cats first with all the different meats you are going to use. Try only one meat each day.
 
Here’s my advice and we’ve had great success with raw food:
- be careful with the skin on chicken/duck/fish as they can start to choke on it. I mostly take it all off unless it’s very small
- try minced raw meet as it’s easier, our cat loves it, I just buy a pack of chicken/beef/pork/lamb mince
- rabbit is really good for them too
- variety is massive as you know what cats are like - I use one small pack of mince for most of the week but change the menu after 4/5 days, and I give plenty of other little meat/fish treats too. Also, a little bit of good quality wet cat food from time to time - even on top of the raw meat to encourage them
Best of luck,
S.
 
Bron and Sheba (GA) said:
If the chicken skin is ground with the chicken meat, there should not be a choking issue at all. It is important to include some chicken skin to balance the fat portion.
Click to expand...
True, if you have time to grind.
On the bones issue, our cat ate the mackerel bones - off my plate - the other day, which are obviously pretty soft and not too sharp. He dispatched them like like it was the most natural thing in the world.
 
Bron and Sheba (GA) said:
I would not lower the protein level. That is only needed when the cat is very advanced with CRD.
If you are going to cook the egg yoke, I would cook the whole egg and put the whole egg in the mix. The cooked egg white adds protein without adding phosphorus. I’m not sure how many eggs you are adding to your mix but make them whole eggs. Just make sure the egg white is cooked.
Yes by using egg shell powder instead of bone meal or bones and adding cooked egg white to the mix will lower the phosphorus levels substantially. That is the diet I fed Sheba and her lab results remained stable.

To warm the food, I plate it up in individual flat plates like saucers and put some hot water in the sink and sit the saucers in the water for 5 minutes or until the food is just warm. Be careful the water isn’t deep or it will spill into the food. Don’t ever microwave the food as that will destroy the vitamins.
Click to expand...
That's what I do! But instead of hot water in the sink, I put hot water in bowls and place the saucers on the bowls, no worry about spilling water in the food:) I can microwave just the water bowls that way too, to get it a little hotter and warm the food a little quicker.
 
Bron and Sheba (GA) said:
I think it would be best if you followed Dr Lisa Piersons recipe and use the supplements she suggests, except you won't be adding the bone but you will use the egg shell powder instead.
Only add the supplements at the end after you have ground the meat.
I'm not sure how much you are planning to do each time but if you only do small batches you will be making it every few days.
You need to freeze it as soon as it is made to keep it fresh and defrost in the fridge each day.
I take mine out of the freezer each night and put it in the fridge for the next day.

With the egg shell powder the correct amount to use is 1/8 teaspoon per 100 grams of meat. So if you are doing 800 grams it would be 1 teaspoon of ESP.
If it was 1000 grams it would be 1 1/4 teaspoons of ESP.
You will need to buy some of those small measuring spoons that measure from 1/8 to 1 teaspoon.

Also make sure you only add the correct amount of liver. It's is only a small amount compared to the other meats. Larger amounts are toxic to cats but they must have some liver.
Click to expand...

Dr Lisa Piersons said for 3 pounds of poultry thigh meat/bones/skin, add one cup of water, 10000 mg fish oil, vitamin E 400U... etc

So if I don't use bone and use eggshell powder, how much pound of boneless meat should I use to follow her recipe? I assume that eggshell powder is close to weightless


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Simon M said:
Here’s my advice and we’ve had great success with raw food:
- be careful with the skin on chicken/duck/fish as they can start to choke on it. I mostly take it all off unless it’s very small
- try minced raw meet as it’s easier, our cat loves it, I just buy a pack of chicken/beef/pork/lamb mince
- rabbit is really good for them too
- variety is massive as you know what cats are like - I use one small pack of mince for most of the week but change the menu after 4/5 days, and I give plenty of other little meat/fish treats too. Also, a little bit of good quality wet cat food from time to time - even on top of the raw meat to encourage them
Best of luck,
S.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your advice, it is a pity that it is not easy to find rabbit meat in Hong Kong. May I ask what is the benefit of having larger variety?
 
Are you talking about the heart, kidney and liver?
I don’t cook them for my cats, I feed them raw. But you might like to start with just quickly frying them for 1 minute. Cooking ruins many of the vitamins and minerals but it would be fine to start by cooking them just a little.
 
Bron and Sheba (GA) said:
Are you talking about the heart, kidney and liver?
I don’t cook them for my cats, I feed them raw. But you might like to start with just quickly frying them for 1 minute. Cooking ruins many of the vitamins and minerals but it would be fine to start by cooking them just a little.
Click to expand...

yes, i am talking about liver as this is the omly organ that dr lisa pierson's recipe has, do you think i should use other organs?

Also, as i have asked, how should i adjust the boneless meat volume according to dr Lisa Piersons
 
The liver should only be 5% of the total amount of the meat.

You can use chicken hearts if you want to as well. They are part of the muscle meat, not the organs. You could add the chicken hearts separately if you want. I give my cats 3 chicken hearts a day.

With the muscle meat ie..chicken thighs and some skin and whatever else you are using....make as much as you want. I would stick to something like 1000 Grams of it and then the liver would be 50 grams (5% of 10000 grams) and then the egg shell powder would be 1.3125 teaspoons (1/8 x 1050/100 = 1.3125 teaspoons) Plus the other supplements you are including.

If you are using a different amount of meat you will have to adjust the amount of ESP, remembering that it is 1/8 teaspoon per 100 grams of meat used (that includes muscle meat, skin, liver, hearts etc.
You need to make sure you have it all balanced to be nutritionally sound.
 
Bron and Sheba (GA) said:
The liver should only be 5% of the total amount of the meat.

You can use chicken hearts if you want to as well. They are part of the muscle meat, not the organs. You could add the chicken hearts separately if you want. I give my cats 3 chicken hearts a day.

With the muscle meat ie..chicken thighs and some skin and whatever else you are using....make as much as you want. I would stick to something like 1000 Grams of it and then the liver would be 50 grams (5% of 10000 grams) and then the egg shell powder would be 1.3125 teaspoons (1/8 x 1050/100 = 1.3125 teaspoons) Plus the other supplements you are including.

If you are using a different amount of meat you will have to adjust the amount of ESP, remembering that it is 1/8 teaspoon per 100 grams of meat used (that includes muscle meat, skin, liver, hearts etc.
You need to make sure you have it all balanced to be nutritionally sound.
Click to expand...

I totally understand the ratio of chicken meat and eggshell powder. However, I still do not understand how much fish oil, taurine, vitamin E, and vitamin B-complex, egg white I should use etc... Dr Lisa's recipe is based on 3 pounds of chicken thigh with bones, I do not know how this translate to the total weight of boneless chicken with eggshell powder.

Also, can drumstick be used instead of thigh? Because it may be cheaper
 
If I were you I would rotate the type of meat you use as different meats have different nutrients.

I am no expert on this Peter. I feed my cats a frankenprey diet so it’s a bit different to Dr Lisa Piersons.
I just know that you have to use a balanced diet.
When I read Dr Lisa’s recipe I think that the 3 pounds of meat she talks about in relation to the supplements is the same if it contains bones or if it doesn’t contain bones, you are just using the ESP instead of the bones. So the way I read it is if you make up 1.36 Kgs (3 lbs) of meat You would use the amount of supplements she has listed in her recipe, and use the appropriate amount of ESP.

Please read her article again as she Does talk about boneless meat.
 
PH&MonkeyPenPenFaFaTiger said:
I totally understand the ratio of chicken meat and eggshell powder. However, I still do not understand how much fish oil, taurine, vitamin E, and vitamin B-complex, egg white I should use etc... Dr Lisa's recipe is based on 3 pounds of chicken thigh with bones, I do not know how this translate to the total weight of boneless chicken with eggshell powder.

Also, can drumstick be used instead of thigh? Because it may be cheaper
Click to expand...

I dont know if this helps you- I have been using Dr Lisa's recipe for 7 years. All raw, not cooked at all (she originally didnt recommend partially cooking it).
But I have only used boneless meat, first using bonemeal, then I switched to eggshell powder instead of bones. I actually never considered the difference in weight of boneless vs boned in chicken. I just follow the recipe, use 3 lbs of boneless and the corresponding amounts for all the other ingredients.
I assume all is well, because my girls have been eating it for 7 years:)

As for the drumsticks, I have used some boneless drumsticks along with the thighs with no problems. If you are buying boned in meat, then removing the bones, buying drumsticks may not be worth it, as drumsticks have large bones in them.
 
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