Tiger is getting a Reset..NO scratch that he isn't!!! NOW WHAT??

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Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

Member Since 2014
Previous Thread..http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...-169-then-pink-pink-pink.228473/#post-2560675
Tiger is getting a RESET. Starting all over. Like he was newly diagnosed.
With expert advice and guidance we are doing a reset on Tiger.
Quote from the expert: "Too much insulin presenting as not enough. And if he was dealing with an infection or other medical issue at that time, the dose wouldn't do much. If he's over the infection now, better to restart and see what happens. And maybe switch to a depot insulin." I talked to my Vet and she said she'll write me a script for Lantus. But she is real busy with surgeries right now. Which means it could be awhile.
They suggested 2.5u at his Am shot then reduce after that. I OOPSED.. gave him .5U, misread the pm. So tired didn't get to sleep until the sun came up. He has me up all night worrying about him.
Just checked bg it's 420+9. I went ahead and gave him 2u..I'm pretty sure that the .5u did nothing for him, not even in the body anymore.
Another thing..you think that since he is eating mostly can food that could lower his BG that much?? Take a look at his SS.
 
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Bron and Sheba (GA) said:
Who did you get that ‘expert advice’ from? I can’t imagine anyone here suggesting to start all over again.
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No it wasn't from anyone here. I gave him 2u's at his Pm shot he held all night at 500. Should I go back up to 5u's then at his Am shot? Or stick with the 2u for 6 cycles? I knew I shouldn't have listened to this other person, she doesn't know Tiger as well as you guys here do.
 
Bron and Sheba (GA) said:
I think you should go back to the dose you were giving before you got the dodgy advice.
If you have any Ketostix I would test for ketones as well.
Make sure he is eating well.
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Yeah I was thinking the same thing. I know you guys know Tiger better. Since I post here so much lol. I test him weekly with a 10 step strip all look good except the glucose of course. Yes, he eating good mostly canned now. Wonder if thats one of the reasons he is starting to turn a corner. That and the no Pred now. I'm gonna go back to 5.25u I think and go from there. Maybe tweek it lower every 6 cycles???
 
He's just bouncing from some of the lower numbers. His body has got used to high numbers and he thinks those numbers are normal and he dumps the stored glucose into his system to save himself. He needs to get used to normal numbers again. It's very common. I'd be guided by Deb with the dose of Prozinc.
ETA. Just to clarify I don’t mean he is bouncing at the moment. Those high numbers are from lack of insulin. I mean the bouncing before the reduction in dose.
 
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Bron and Sheba (GA) said:
He's just bouncing from some of the lower numbers. His body has got used to high numbers and he thinks those numbers are normal and he dumps the stored glucose into his system to save himself. He needs to get used to normal numbers again. It's very common. I'd be guided by Deb with the dose of Prozinc.
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All he does is bounce...makes me crazy and Deb too lol. He was high for sooooo long. I'll wait and see what @Deb & Wink says. Have 2 hrs before his AM shot.
 
@Deb & Wink @Chris & China (GA) or Anyone.....Just talked to Doc. She said OK to switching him to Lantus. I am nervous about it. No clue about about how, when etc..on Lantus. Been using Prozinc/Vetsulin for 5yrs on Jazz Man. Tiger seems to hate the Prozinc and the Vetsulin. Will need ALOT OF GUIDANCE when I switch. I'll start another post the day before he gets on Lantus so I can be ready. I know I have a lot of reading and research to do.
 
Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man said:
Quote from the expert: "Too much insulin presenting as not enough.
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Unless that person was a vet that's very knowledgeable in diabetes, that person is no expert. That old chestnut gets trotted around some FB groups. And unfortunately I've seen some cats go into DKA and worse with that bad advice. You started Tiger at a reasonable dose, you do a great job testing to catch any lows, and increase by reasonable amounts, Therefore, Tiger is not overdosed.

He looked good on 5.25 units. I wouldn't go much lower.

It's probably too late, but your boy would probably do better on Levemir instead of Lantus. I say that because the insulin actions are almost the same, but Lantus has an acid base that can sting at higher doses. We'd probably switch you do a similar Lantus (or Levemir) dose as the Prozinc, so he might feel the sting. Not all cats do, but rather than have you switch again. I don't know if you are using U-100 needles now, but when I switched from Caninsulin (Vetsuiin) we both liked the smaller needles of the U-100 syringes.
 
I'd stay with the 5.25U dose for Tiger, until his BG levels tell us otherwise.

He was one really sick kitty when you first started dosing him, and you had to increase the Prozinc dose FAST to try and get him out of those over 500 Black numbers. Then the Prozinc didn't seem to be doing anything for him and you switched to Vetsulin. Vetsulin didn't last long enough, too short of a duration, so it's back to Prozinc now. Where you were starting to get some good results with the 5.25U dose.

Whoever told you to "reset" the dose was giving you some really "bad advice" in my personal opinion.

Jacque,
We don't allow dosing advice via PM or private conversations on this message board. It's too one sided and does not keep the other people helping you in the loop.

Any person or group that is honest and above board, will be public in what they say, not keeping things hidden. They will be willing to share their train of thought with you and others. They will be publicly posting their response, in whatever group it was where you received the response.

Who is the supposed "Prozinc expert" that Amy Sikes of DCIN talked to? What protocol are they using? What information are they using to base the idea that Tiger was overdosed? Please link us to the post from the group.

I've seen one. One clear case where I thought a cat was overdosed and suggested the caregiver lower the dose. Recent member, NatashaL. And I absolutely did not suggest that she reset the dose to 0.5U, but decrease by small amounts, and get some more mid-cycle testing and get our standardized color coded SS setup. She did, and look at the results. Her two threads are linked here, for you to review. She is using Prozinc, by the way, for her cat Ron.
Need advice about high numbers and Need advice on falling numbers

If Wendy&Neko or Sienne and Gabby (GA) or Marje and Gracie or Bron and Sheba (GA) or Chris & China (GA) had told you they thought Tiger was being overdosed, I would have believed one of them. This other person, we might know, we might not. But how much experience they have with Prozinc, is what we don't know.

Heck, I don't have much experience with Prozinc and neither does Chris. But you see us pouring out our thoughts to you on what is going on with Tiger constantly. If you don't trust us anymore, please let us know. Please let us know how we can regain that trust. :(
 
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Wendy&Neko said:
Unless that person was a vet that's very knowledgeable in diabetes, that person is no expert. That old chestnut gets trotted around some FB groups. And unfortunately I've seen some cats go into DKA and worse with that bad advice. You started Tiger at a reasonable dose, you do a great job testing to catch any lows, and increase by reasonable amounts, Therefore, Tiger is not overdosed.

He looked good on 5.25 units. I wouldn't go much lower.

It's probably too late, but your boy would probably do better on Levemir instead of Lantus. I say that because the insulin actions are almost the same, but Lantus has an acid base that can sting at higher doses. We'd probably switch you do a similar Lantus (or Levemir) dose as the Prozinc, so he might feel the sting. Not all cats do, but rather than have you switch again. I don't know if you are using U-100 needles now, but when I switched from Caninsulin (Vetsuiin) we both liked the smaller needles of the U-100 syringes.
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I actually changed my mind last minute and gave him 5.25 about 15mins ago. Lantus is the one that DCIN will give me for free, so I had to go with that one. Thank You...I didn't think I screwed him up but I trusted this person, since she had seen overdoses and his ss looked like thats what was going on
 
Deb & Wink said:
I stay with the 5.25U dose for Tiger, until his BG levels tell us otherwise.

He was one really sick kitty when you first started dosing him, and you had to increase the Prozinc dose FAST to try and get him out of those over 500 Black numbers. Then the Prozinc didn't seem to be doing anything for him and you switched to Vetsulin. Vetsulin didn't last long enough, too short of a duration, so it's back to Prozinc now. Where you were starting to get some good results with the 5.25U dose.

Whoever told you to "reset" the dose was giving you some really "bad advice" in my personal opinion.

Jacque,
We don't allow dosing advice via PM or private conversations on this message board. It's too one sided and does not keep the other people helping you in the loop.

Any person or group that is honest and above board, will be public in what they say, not keeping things hidden. They will be willing to share their train of thought with you and others. They will be publicly posting their response, in whatever group it was where you received the response.

Who is the supposed "Prozinc expert" that Amy Sikes of DCIN talked to? What protocol are they using? What information are they using to base the idea that Tiger was overdosed? Please link us to the post from the group.

I've seen one. One clear case where I thought a cat was overdosed and suggested the caregiver lower the dose. Recent member, NatashaL. And I absolutely did not suggest that she reset the dose to 0.5U, but decrease by small amounts, and get some more mid-cycle testing and get our standardized color coded SS setup. She did, and look at the results. Her two threads are linked here, for you to review. She is using Prozinc, by the way, for her cat Ron.
Need advice about high numbers and Need advice on falling numbers

If Wendy&Neko or Sienne and Gabby (GA) or Marje and Gracie or Bron and Sheba (GA) or Chris & China (GA) had told you they thought Tiger was being overdosed, I would have believed one of them. This other person, we might know, we might not. But how much experience they have with Prozinc, is what we don't know.

Heck, I don't have much experience with Prozinc and neither does Chris. But you see us pouring out our thoughts to you on what is going on with Tiger constantly. If you don't trust us anymore, please let us know. Please let us know how we can regain that trust. :(
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I couldn't reach anyone here when Tiger through me a curve ball yesterday his Amps was 167 and then it kept dropping. Reached out to people on FB messenger, no one was around. So, you know me...I'm freaking out by then. So, yes I reached out to Amy and she reached out to a "expert" and she said after looking over his ss that he is overdosing. And of course...you know me...I'm freaking out even more. I trust people waaaaay too much, my hubby says. When I'm told they are an expert I believed them. Chris already chewed me out..and she pretty much thinks she knows who it was. Too many "experts" out there. From now on I'm not going to visit any of the fb groups other than the fdmb group.
So, I said to myself "what would Deb say for dosing today's am shot?" the answer was 5.25..
 
See, Wendy&Neko did chime in and thought the reset was a bad idea too.

Chris chewed you out did she? Sure hope the "expert" was not a member of any of the groups where Chris is the admin or a moderator. I have a couple of ideas of who the person could have been. Some of those folks don't know their a@@ from their elbow, if you'll forgive the rough speech.

We are "peer reviewed" here. So the idea is if we go too far off base, someone will catch it and correct us. None of us is perfect. Still working on that "state of perfection", after more than 6 decades of life.

Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man said:
I'm un-joining those other fb groups
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:stop: Jacque, you don't have to go that far. But do realize that you are going to get a difference of opinion on what is going on with Tiger.

Lantus? Really! When you were so resistant a few months ago to both Chris and my suggestion to try it. :rolleyes:

We'll help you. Go to the Lantus ISG group and read the "Sticky" or pinned posts at the top. There is a ton of information there. Don't let yourself get overwhelmed. Start with the very first sticky, this one.
Sticky The Basics: New to the Group? Start here!

Then move on to this one, that explains the dosing methods.
Sticky Dosing Methods: Start Low, Go Slow (SLGS) & Tight Regulation (TR)
 
Deb & Wink said:
See, Wendy&Neko did chime in and thought the reset was a bad idea too.

Chris chewed you out did she? Sure hope the "expert" was not a member of any of the groups where Chris is the admin or a moderator. I have a couple of ideas of who the person could have been. Some of those folks don't know their a@@ from their elbow, if you'll forgive the rough speech.

We are "peer reviewed" here. So the idea is if we go too far off base, someone will catch it and correct us. None of us is perfect. Still working on that "state of perfection", after more than 6 decades of life.


:stop: Jacque, you don't have to go that far. But do realize that you are going to get a difference of opinion on what is going on with Tiger.

Lantus? Really! When you were so resistant a few months ago to both Chris and my suggestion to try it. :rolleyes:

We'll help you. Go to the Lantus ISG group and read the "Sticky" or pinned posts at the top. There is a ton of information there. Don't let yourself get overwhelmed. Start with the very first sticky, this one.
Sticky The Basics: New to the Group? Start here!

Then move on to this one, that explains the dosing methods.
Sticky Dosing Methods: Start Low, Go Slow (SLGS) & Tight Regulation (TR)
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He won't regulate or stay steady on the prozinc. I'm desperate for him. I'm trusting Chris completely. Lantus or Levemir whichever Amy says that they will give me. I sent her a message to check on the Levemir. Doc won't be happy that I'm changing the script again. Prozinc>Vetsulin>Lantus>Levemir lol
 
We'll pretend the dose "reset" was a fur shot, and see how the numbers trend now that Tiger is back on his full dose. Fur shots happen, to all of us at one time or another. I've done them.

So does misreading the dose we were supposed to give happen. I remember someone who's roommate gave the cat 10U of insulin when it should have been 1U. That was a long, long night for BJ, trying to bring the BG levels back up safely.

Come on Tiger! Come back down!

Glad your vet is so accommodating on rewriting the script. And that Wendy mentioned that on such a high dose, Levemir does not have the "sting" that some cats get on the high doses of lantus and other insulins.
 
Deb & Wink said:
We'll pretend the dose "reset" was a fur shot, and see how the numbers trend now that Tiger is back on his full dose. Fur shots happen, to all of us at one time or another. I've done them.

So does misreading the dose we were supposed to give happen. I remember someone who's roommate gave the cat 10U of insulin when it should have been 1U. That was a long, long night for BJ, trying to bring the BG levels back up safely.

Come on Tiger! Come back down!

Glad your vet is so accommodating on rewriting the script. And that Wendy mentioned that on such a high dose, Levemir does not have the "sting" that some cats get on the high doses of lantus and other insulins.
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He's going down 367+5
Got the script for Levemir already gave it to Chris. Doc has never used it, so I got real lucky that Chris got my pm asking about how Levemir is supplied: pen/vial and units. You saved me again @Chris & China (GA)
 
Hope you are getting the 3 ml insulin pens Jacque. Although with Tiger's high dose, you may go through a 10ml vial pretty quickly. Hard to tell.

Pink tutu time for Tiger again!

While Amy S. had the best of intentions, in asking someone she knew about Tiger's insulin dose, I don't think the person she asked about the dose, is aware of all the special circumstances surrounding Tiger's situation and his health. So let's chalk that one up to a learning experience, for everyone.
 
Deb & Wink said:
Hope you are getting the 3 ml insulin pens Jacque. Although with Tiger's high dose, you may go through a 10ml vial pretty quickly. Hard to tell.

Pink tutu time for Tiger again!

While Amy S. had the best of intentions, in asking someone she knew about Tiger's insulin dose, I don't think the person she asked about the dose, is aware of all the special circumstances surrounding Tiger's situation and his health. So let's chalk that one up to a learning experience, for everyone.
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Yep, Yep and Yep
 
Wendy&Neko said:
What I think you are seeing now is a bounce. From the night of the 24th to morning of 25th, he saw around 11-12 hours of solid blue. That was great progress but probably caused a whopper of a bounce. Reducing the dose just made it look worse. Gotta wait for the bounce to go away.
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Man...Yeah the 24th and 25th was when I TRIED to up his dose by ONLY .25. We all thought that "Ok, he's ready for a tiny increase" but he said "No".
Poor Tiger, for the whole month of April all he's done is bounce it seems. I made it worse, I'm sooo SORRY Tiger. I failed you. I SUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Because of his insane ups and downs(that weren't my fault) and trusting all you Guys..I have agreed to switch him to Levemir. It for sure won't make him any worse!!! Hopefully, I'll be receiving it some time this week.
 
Wendy&Neko said:
For many cats, Levemir has better duration and flattens them out. It did Neko. No guarantees of course and it doesn't happen immediately, but the chances are good.
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Did Neko start on Levemir? Or did you switch him to it?
I don't see how it can be worse than the Prozinc..I think if I remember correctly Prozinc is like inbetween Vetsulin and Lantus/Levemir for how long it lasts in the body right?. And if I can calm down the darn bouncing I'll be happy. Even if it takes a month going up on dose alittle at a time.
 
Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man said:
Did Neko start on Levemir? Or did you switch him to it?
I don't see how it can be worse than the Prozinc..I think if I remember correctly Prozinc is like inbetween Vetsulin and Lantus/Levemir for how long it lasts in the body right?. And if I can calm down the darn bouncing I'll be happy. Even if it takes a month going up on dose alittle at a time.
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Oops..nevermind I see now that Levemir was the 3rd insulin that Neko was on.
 
Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man said:
I made it worse, I'm sooo SORRY Tiger. I failed you. I SUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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:stop: You did not fail Tiger. You do not suck. You've been doing the very best you can, with a lot of other cats to take care of, a lot of simultaneous medical issues with Tiger, a very limited budget, and your husband losing his job. Give yourself a break Jacque. Don't beat yourself up about how Tiger is doing.

Cats bounce until they don't anymore. Some cats bounce for a very long time. Some cats need to try several insulins, before they find the one that works best for them.

Tiger is not in the HI (too high for your meter to read) BG numbers. He is not constantly BLACK >500 mg/dL or in the red (400-499 mg/dL) range all the time, like he was back in the middle of February! He'll get back on track.

Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man said:
.I think if I remember correctly Prozinc is like in between Vetsulin and Lantus/Levemir for how long it lasts in the body right?.
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Yes, NPH insulins are the shortest duration 6-8 hours, then Vetsulin/Caninsulin with a slightly longer duration but usually around 8-10 hours, then Prozinc 10-12 hours duration, then the L's (Lantus and Levemir) for duration, anywhere from 12-16 hours duration.

Have you had a chance to look at the "Sticky" posts over in the Lantus/Levimir forum? In your copious free time, of course.;)
 
Oh Jacque, my heart goes out to you. :bighug::bighug::bighug:

But you’ve got to stop that nonsense & stop it right now!

YOU DO NOT SUCK.

He’s bouncing. That’s what they do.

His numbers ARE getting better.
You’ve made steady progress from that sea of black.

You took a very short detour with the very best of intentions.
You’re back on track now.

(I have to chuckle. Just as I was going to post, Deb’s post popped up and said the same thing I was trying to say, only MUCH, MUCH better. Then thought heck, I’m gonna post anyway.)

(Sigh, I wish I had the talent to write like so many of youz out there.)
 
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Deb & Wink said:
:stop: You did not fail Tiger. You do not suck. You've been doing the very best you can, with a lot of other cats to take care of, a lot of simultaneous medical issues with Tiger, a very limited budget, and your husband losing his job. Give yourself a break Jacque. Don't beat yourself up about how Tiger is doing.

Cats bounce until they don't anymore. Some cats bounce for a very long time. Some cats need to try several insulins, before they find the one that works best for them.

Tiger is not in the HI (too high for your meter to read) BG numbers. He is not constantly BLACK >500 mg/dL or in the red (400-499 mg/dL) range all the time, like he was back in the middle of February! He'll get back on track.


Yes, NPH insulins are the shortest duration 6-8 hours, then Vetsulin/Caninsulin with a slightly longer duration but usually around 8-10 hours, then Prozinc 10-12 hours duration, then the L's (Lantus and Levemir) for duration, anywhere from 12-16 hours duration.

Have you had a chance to look at the "Sticky" posts over in the Lantus/Levimir forum? In your copious free time, of course.;)
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I know, I know I always beat myself up when I screw up or can't save one of the furkids. I get real down on myself and slip into a depression and have to claw my way out. Tiger being diagnosed with diabetes and small fluid buildup in his chest cavity and losing 4 furkids in 12mos would be hard for anyone. And all totally unrelated health problems. I'll have to say..I've have learned alot more about chf and how it can look like fip, seizures, liver failure and cancer...and of course diabetes.
No haven't had a chance to take a look see at the Sticky note yet...but I definitely will BEFORE I start him on the Levemir.
 
Shelley & Jess said:
Oh Jacque, my heart goes out to you. :bighug::bighug::bighug:

But you’ve got to stop that nonsense & stop it right now!

YOU DO NOT SUCK.

He’s bouncing. That’s what they do.

His numbers ARE getting better.
You’ve made steady progress from that sea of black.

You took a very short detour with the very best of intentions.
You’re back on track now.

(I have to chuckle. Just as I was going to post, Deb’s post popped up and said the same thing I was trying to say, only MUCH, MUCH better. Then thought heck, I’m gonna post anyway.)

(Sigh, I wish I had the talent to write like so many youz out there.)
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I can't write either. It's like...I know what I want to say but it gets lost when i write it. My son says it's because I have too much emotion in my writing lol
 
Jacque, your the person everyone in your neighborhood knows takes in stray kitties. So other people probably "dump" or abandon cats around where you live, knowing you will take them in. How many are you up to now? 20? many of them with medical conditions that need a lot of care.

We wish we could save them all. We wish our cats would live forever. And when they don't we are absolutely heartbroken, weather it has been 6 days, 6 weeks, 6 months, 6 years or 16 years. It never seems like enough time. But our hearts heal a tiny little bit with time. Not all the way. That has never happened for me at least. Each cat I have lost has left a little cat sized hollow behind, in my heart and my soul and my memories. I cling to those treasured memories, and can look back with both sadness and fondness at those times we had together.
 
Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man said:
I know, I know I always beat myself up when I screw up or can't save one of the furkids. I get real down on myself and slip into a depression and have to claw my way out. Tiger being diagnosed with diabetes and small fluid buildup in his chest cavity and losing 4 furkids in 12mos would be hard for anyone. And all totally unrelated health problems. I'll have to say..I've have learned alot more about chf and how it can look like fip, seizures, liver failure and cancer...and of course diabetes.
No haven't had a chance to take a look see at the Sticky note yet...but I definitely will BEFORE I start him on the Levemir.
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Hey Jacque? :bighug::bighug::bighug: You give so much of yourself to these little furry beasts. They know it too. No one person knows everything INCLUDING you.;)
The fact that you give more than you take, is not lost on them. They KNOW. :cat:
 
Deb & Wink said:
Jacque, your the person everyone in your neighborhood knows takes in stray kitties. So other people probably "dump" or abandon cats around where you live, knowing you will take them in. How many are you up to now? 20? many of them with medical conditions that need a lot of care.

We wish we could save them all. We wish our cats would live forever. And when they don't we are absolutely heartbroken, weather it has been 6 days, 6 weeks, 6 months, 6 years or 16 years. It never seems like enough time. But our hearts heal a tiny little bit with time. Not all the way. That has never happened for me at least. Each cat I have lost has left a little cat sized hollow behind, in my heart and my soul and my memories. I cling to those treasured memories, and can look back with both sadness and fondness at those times we had together.
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Beautifully written..Memories of My Mokie haunt me and make me want to curl up and stay in bed everyday and it's been several years now. He was my life, my love, my everything..I only had 16yrs. I still see him and hear him everywhere. I know that hole.
 
Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man said:
Oops..nevermind I see now that Levemir was the 3rd insulin that Neko was on.
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Yup, I was slower than I should have been at switching. Caninsulin was my vet's go to insulin for kitties, in spite of me lurking here and knowing it wasn't. It took going to a locum vet there to get me switched to Lantus. Another year and a half before I got the nerve to try Levemir. There were only a couple low dose cats on Lev at the time on FDMB, no regular higher dose Lev posters. Kicked myself later. Neko was also one of those who liked to bounce a lot, took a year before she stopped bouncing to reds. :rolleyes: Second cycle of Levemir was all blue, I was hooked.

Go Tiger! :cool:
 
Wendy&Neko said:
Yup, I was slower than I should have been at switching. Caninsulin was my vet's go to insulin for kitties, in spite of me lurking here and knowing it wasn't. It took going to a locum vet there to get me switched to Lantus. Another year and a half before I got the nerve to try Levemir. There were only a couple low dose cats on Lev at the time on FDMB, no regular higher dose Lev posters. Kicked myself later. Neko was also one of those who liked to bounce a lot, took a year before she stopped bouncing to reds. :rolleyes: Second cycle of Levemir was all blue, I was hooked.

Go Tiger! :cool:
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Well then, you are going to be my new Bestie. So, be ready if I scream out for help
 
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