1/21 Whiz EZ complete and constipation

[Whiz's Human]

Hi,
I recently transitioned Whiz to ground chicken with EZ complete as recommended by Chris and China. He is constipated, which could be from a few possible factors
-his blood sugar is in the green (this is new for him since moving to meat and replacing the insulin vial) so he isn't craving water like he used to
-we got a new dog a week ago that is causing him some stress but is getting better
-his diet no longer has fiber
-he is still allergic to something in the EZ complete that is causing bowel distress (he is pulling out his fur a little which makes me think he is having allergy)
So I'm trying to rule out possibilities and am wondering if people who feed EZ complete with raw add a fiber supplement and if so what do you use? I am getting really mixed messages that cats just need meat and then that they need fiber in their diet. Adding pumpkin would increase carbs and introduce another possible allergen so I'm not crazy about doing that but I also want him to poop.
I have a call into the vet as well.

 

[Briere Fur Mom]

This is a really good website, if you don't know about it. https://felineconstipation.org/

I had issues with E-Z complete, E-z egg yolk additive and Dr. Elsey's. At least I think they were the culprits...only time will truly tell. It seems my boys have an egg allergy/sensitivity. They got yeasty ears and one of them started to over groom. I had the same problem with them over the summer while on Friskies. Egg seems to be the common ingredient among the foods and supplements. So, we've switched to Weruva, in hopes of eliminating their sensitivities.
Constipation is also a reoccuring theme in my household... with one kitty in particular. It got especially bad while on E-Z complete. I was doing the cooked version, not raw. The first batch I made contained 100% white meat chicken. I'm certain this contributed to the constipation. No dark meat=no fat. On top of that there is little to no added fiber. I ended up using pumpkin a couple times a week to promote BMs.
Since switching to an all wet diet, constipation is my #1 complaint. I add water to their food. Give them cat grass for added fiber. Did the Mira-lax thing as needed. In the end I'm resorting to adding pumpkin to their food when needed. Just our story and I'm sticking to it!

 

[Whiz's Human]

Briere Fur Mom, thanks for sharing your experience! It's a little frustrating that EZ complete is marketed as everything you need when maybe it really isn't. I will start doling out the pumpkin to all the fur children and see if that helps.

 

[Sienne and Gabby (GA)]

EZ Complete really does have all of the necessary nutrients to round out a raw diet so I wouldn't say it's not a complete supplement. How long did you give your cat to transition to a raw diet? Many cats need a slow transition. From your spreadsheet, it looks like you made an immediate switch vs a transition.

The other factor to consider is that with a raw diet, your cat will not be producing the same amount of stool as on even a high quality canned food diet. So, are you seeing constipation or your cat just doesn't need to poop as much? I always add water when I'm serving my cats their meals.

Another factor with allergy, at least with Whiz, is that Whiz may be allergic to chicken. I had always thought that poultry had a low allergy profile and beef and fish were worse. It turns out that poultry is an allergen for many cats. You might want to see about trying ground lamb or ground pork or some other novel protein and see how Whiz responds.

A couple of other thoughts... What were you previously feeding Whiz? In looking at how you're dosing, I'm more than a little nervous. You increased Whiz's dose from 4.5u ro 5.5u in one day and then increased to 7.0u the next day. In less than a week, you increased to 9.0u. That is a whoppingly big jump in dose in a very short time. With SLGS, you should be increasing by 0.25u. It's possible that Whiz may need a large dose of insulin. If so, you really need to get your cat tested for a high dose condition such as acromegaly and/or insulin resistance. There is information in this post on both conditions and on getting the lab tests.

If you are going to shoot 9.0u, please test. You have 2 days with no spot checks in either cycle. On that large of a dose and pre-shot numbers in the 100s, Whiz could be seeing low numbers during the times. you're not testing.

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

I agree with all the points @Sienne and Gabby (GA) has brought up.
I notice you were feeding dry food while giving the 9 units which may have been the only thing stopping Whiz from dropping too low. Giving 9 units and then not testing during the cycle is not safe and you risk Whiz dropping into hypo territory.

I see you have dropping down to 4 units. That may still be too much insulin but the only way to find out is to test during the cycles.

I feed my cats a completely raw diet. They only do poops every 2 or 3 days. I don’t give any extra roughage.
I used to give my diabetic girl Sheba plain cooked pumpkin with nothing added every day and it did not effect her BGLevels at all.

I would recommend you read the SLGS method again and follow it which means holding the dose for 7 days unless Whiz drops under 90 in which case you would reduce the dose by 0.25 units.
Keep asking questions. We are happy to help.

 

[Whiz's Human]

Thanks Sienna and Gabby, but if you are going to give advice, please pay attention to details....if you look at the dates on the spreadsheet, the insulin changes were made over weeks and months, not days. Whiz did transition all at once to raw- as soon as he got some raw he rejected the dry and we immediately cut his insulin dose and monitored his levels. We never made it to tight regulation until he started eating raw. .I didn't get every measure in the spreadsheet after he moved to raw, I was more concerned with how he was doing than the spreadsheet, but 4 units is just right to keep his low number around 85-100. I know he is constipated because I have seen him straining. I was hoping for advice and support, not a critique of how I am managing my cat wrong. Thanks for sharing your poop experience Bron and Sheba. It is helpful to know what to expect for normal.

 

[Marje and Gracie]

Thanks Sienna and Gabby, but if you are going to give advice, please pay attention to details....if you look at the dates on the spreadsheet, the insulin changes were made over weeks and months, not days. Whiz did transition all at once to raw- as soon as he got some raw he rejected the dry and we immediately cut his insulin dose and monitored his levels. We never made it to tight regulation until he started eating raw. .I didn't get every measure in the spreadsheet after he moved to raw, I was more concerned with how he was doing than the spreadsheet, but 4 units is just right to keep his low number around 85-100. I know he is constipated because I have seen him straining. I was hoping for advice and support, not a critique of how I am managing my cat wrong. Thanks for sharing your poop experience Bron and Sheba. It is helpful to know what to expect for normal.

Sienne wasn’t critiquing how you are managing your cat. We are here to give advice even if it isn’t what you want to hear. Our first concern is safety and if we see something that is unsafe, it’s incumbent upon us to point it out to you because perhaps you didn’t know. There are a lot of members who read posts and would think it’s fine to increase as you have if we didn’t say something. It’s a learning experience....as are most things here so it’s best to keep an open mind and a thick skin.

You did increase from 5.5u to 7u in a week and that’s too fast. As far as the other increases, without data, it’s not possible to know if you increased too quickly or not. We would also be remiss if we didn’t tell you it can be dangerous to give insulin without a preshot test....especially 9u of insulin. It’s not unusual to see a very low PS and if you don’t test every time, you are putting him at grave risk for a hypo. A 9u depot is enormous and the numbers you are seeing now could still be from that depot.

Insofar as the food, transition to raw needs to be done very slowly. As an example, when I got my kitten, she was on canned food and I took ten days to slowly transition her to her first raw with EZC. Then we added the next protein, and so on. It took a long time to get her on all seven of her proteins. When you make the EZC, you can add more water than the recipe calls for.

My guess is that the sudden change from dry to raw is what caused his constipation. Raw food is very nutrient dense. Raw fed cats often only poop every 2-3 days but they shouldn’t strain. If he’s pulling out his fur, it could be the protein, not the EZC. You might want to think about doing a Nutriscan test on him. I did it on my cats and found my male was sensitive to chicken so we dropped it out of his rotation. Speaking of which, you should slowly transition him onto other proteins so he’s getting at least three different ones. My cats eat lamb, turkey, goat, venison, elk, bison, and pork. They don’t get the same meal twice and are never constipated. I’ve not heard of anyone feeding raw needing to add fiber. That doesn’t mean it can’t happen; I just haven’t heard of anyone in the raw feeding groups I’m in needing it.

 

[Gill & George]

How is Whizz and his pooping? I hope he's adjusting and feeling better.

I've not had any probs with my kitty on that front.

I took a look at his numbers, interesting cycle with the skipped shots.
I see you shot 3u in the pm as he had crept up to yellow.

I've not visited before, so I don't know if you are aware already.
Lantus is a depot insulin.
The depot from the earlier 'larger doses' will have been influencing those cycles where you skipped the shots. As it drains the numbers start to rise.

Now you have shot 3u, which may or may not be enough/or even too much of a dose, given the food changes. (We have seen cats go from 5 u to nothing in 24hrs when dry food is removed)

Given the change in food, it's likely that his insulin requirements have changed.

Back to the depot, I would suggest that you keep monitoring as you have done yesterday, but also that you hold the dose fore at least 6 cycles(as long as he doesn't drop below 90, in which case you should reduce as per SLGS, guidelines) even if the numbers seem initially not go be agreeable. In fact if you are wishing to continue following SLGS you should hold for a whole week. (Since dry is out of the picture you could swap to TR as long as you are able to monitor sufficiently to do TR/see the guidelines sticky for what is required).

The reason it's important to hold the dose is that you need to wait for the depot to stabilise/equalise. You will not see the full effect of the dose until that happens. If we change doses too frequently we can end up chasing our tails at best or with a kitty that is overdosed.

Every time wr up up a dose, we ask ourselves: How low is this dose taking kitty? The answer to that guides us in our dosing decision. So you need to
1) wait for the depot to settle
2)have enough data to determine how low the dose is taking kitty.

I know you were after info for pooping issues and you've had some great advice on that front.
The spirit of this board is to help eachother even when an individual may not realise that they need help with a particular issue.
It is in that spirit that the comments on dosing have been made, sharing the combined wealth of experience in managing diabetic cats.
Marje and Sienne helped me when I first joined, along with some other very long standing members, my cat would not be in remission if it were not for their advice and help when I needed it.

I truly hope that all is well with you and Whizz. Hope to see you back again soon.