? 10/08/2019 Mowgli AMPS 191 +0.75 202 +11 97 PMPS 115 +1 133

AmandaE

AmandaE

Member Since 2019
10/07/2019

Melly Moo is climbing bit by bit on 0.25u. I’m officially threatening an increase but I’m unsure when I’m supposed to actually follow through: Tomorrow morning or this evening depending on PMPS? My interpretation of the protocol is to increase on Wednesday am so Mowgli shows the effects of 6 full cycles.

BUT:

In TR you can increase immediately for failed reductions. What do you look for in a failed reduction? Should it be immediately noticeable like, higher numbers right away? Ex: in Mowgli’s case this weekend when we did back to back reducies if we would have seen yellow instead of blue readings would we have known it was a failed reduction? Or would we wait to see the depot stabilize?

This morning I had a very nice start: stepping in a nice pile of wet puke with bare feet ...my favourite!:rolleyes: Nyx is the puking culprit in our family.

But there were also two other more watery Pukes on the back porch mat this morning too, they look like the throw up that Mowgli had Saturday in his mega low numbers. Mowgli pukes from time to time but not usually close together and without fur. (He’s an excessive groomer and has hair balls every week or two) could he be trying to work up a hairball?

Not to pile on but: he also seems to be balding inside his hind legs. It isn’t irritated it’s just obvious he’s losing fur there... I suspected excessive grooming (maybe more of a topic for the health forum)

Anyway! On the plus side we are noticing a marked improvement in Nyx since putting her on a joint supplement and omega 3s. She’s much more of her cuddly self although still a little crankier than usual. I think last night she was trying to play with mowgli too she snuck up on him and swatted/hissed at him and then he chased her upstairs.... he came right back downstairs and she followed... could this be her trying to play with him? Or is it straight aggression?

Long post today huh? I’m most interested in my TR questions ;)

Hope everyone has an awesome day :joyful:
 
I'm not sure when to call it a fail since all WE ever do is increase :rolleyes: but I'm sure you'll get an experienced answer soon.
Why do they always puke somewhere where you're definitely going to step in it? I hope it's nothing serious.
Great news about Nyx and the supplements working. :bighug:
Have a wonderful day Amanda!
 
With Lantus, you need to be attentive to back-to-back reductions. While it's tempting to reduce if you get low numbers in two cycles, in reality what you may be seeing is an overly full depot that's pulling the numbers down because the first dose reduction hasn't had enough time to cause the level of insulin in the depot to respond. In other words, the depot didn't have enough time to catch up to the first reduction. In addition, you skipped a shot. I'm not entirely sure why you did that.

There's a very good chance you need to increase back up to 0.5u.

One thought for your consideration. With TR, you will want to get comfortable with shooting low numbers. If you look at Gabby's SS, I would shoot anything above a 50. It can take a while to get comfortable shooting low and, frankly, it is completely counterintuitive. Often with shooting low, the numbers stay flat vs. dropping like a rock. The basic idea is "shoot low to stay low." However, ECID and you need to become comfortable enough with managing Mowgli's numbers to shoot low.
 
I’m on board with Sienne. After a dose reduction, the higher dose you reduced from can sometimes take as many as six cycles to no longer influence the BG. Usually, it’s less but I have seen up to six. Certainly, if you get a 30 something number around cycle four post reduction, it’s safest to reduce again.

One of the old timers, Libby, took a lot of BTB reductions when Lucy was sliding down the dosing scale and then Lucy stopped cold and her BG skyrocketed. Libby had to gradually take her up past the dose where she started the slides and then gradually brought her back down, avoiding BTB reductions, and Lucy went OTJ. Here is Lucy’s SS. Look starting out 10/2008.
 
AmandaE said:
she was trying to play with mowgli too she snuck up on him and swatted/hissed at him and then he chased her upstairs...
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Hopefully they are starting to "Play" together! Just taking "baby" steps. A little hissing still going on. At least they seem to be interacting :joyful:
upload_2019-10-8_11-17-29.jpeg
 
I have been noticing some excessive grooming with Alice, too.

Here’s all I’ve got so far:
“"The area being 'mowed' gives us a clue as to the cause [which can include anything from parasites in kittens to neurological diseases in older cats], but there is great overlap," he says. For example, compulsive licking at the tail head may indicate a flea infestation, while cats with pollen or food allergies may lick their backs, abdomens or other areas of the body.”
Source: https://www.vet.cornell.edu/departm...ation/feline-health-topics/cats-lick-too-much
 
This is what I just posted in Alice's condo:

"Healing from surgery can cause her to be itchy. If this is the surgery from June, I doubt that's causing the itching. It could also be allergies -- either seasonal or food. If Alice isn't sensitive to fish, I'd try Omega-3 which has anti-inflammatory properties. Nordic Naturals is a good brand and comes in a pet specific formulation (i.e., the eyedropper is calibrated for small animals). Alternatively, talk to your vet. Zyrtec can be used for environmental allergies.

If the allergy is to a food, you will want to try a novel protein. ZiwiPeak makes a high quality food that includes some novel proteins (e.g., venison, a lamb and rabbit combo). See if that helps."
 
Amanda and @AliceMeowliss&Cassandra

Dr. Dodd’s with Hemopet does a food sensitivity test called Nutriscan. My holistic vet sees a lot of pets with itching, excessive grooming, etc. Nutriscan is not an allergy test but a food sensitivity test. When my little one, Liv, started seeing very mild elevations in her ALT, we did the Nutriscan and found she had a sensitivity to white fish....which was the component of her daily fish oil. (I never feed fish). I’ve also just had the test done on Tobey and am awaiting results. We have Nationwide insurance and as long as I document that my vet suggested it, they paid for it.

My feeling is, even if insurance doesn’t pay, it’s well worth it and will save your kitty discomfort and you money and time. It’s a saliva test that you do at home and I found it easy to do with both my cats....and Livia has a tiny mouth but we got the saliva (it doesn’t take much).
 
@Marje and Gracie I went and looked it up and that sounds like it would be absolutely amazing both for Alice and my other excessive groomer. But what can I do in the meantime? We already have had DCIN assistance for so much and I think this is beyond their expected reach. Not sure if I should respond here or on my thread.
 
I am all about finding an easier way if there is one for food sensitivity, but unfortunately, the only reliable, accurate test still as of today is the elimination diet. It remains the gold standard for humans as well, whether it be for puritis or auto immune disorders. It is not easy but it is accurate. Unfortunately, testing using saliva, hair & even blood have produced a lot of false positives resulting in beliefs that a person or animal is unable to consume certain foods when in actuality the foods are fine. None of the tests have been able to be scientifically validated & one recent publication (dogs) sent some stuffed animal fur & tap water in to one of the hair follicle & saliva companies & they had sensitivities as well! For some additional info pertaining to this topic, which includes study info pertaining to blood, hair & saliva testing, I will attach some links.

I think if you do one of these tests & happen to coincidently end up with your pet feeling better that is awesome, but it is just important to know that these tests have not been found to be accurate/validated in either humans or pets & you either simply got lucky or it is pure coincidence.

This is a hot button for me (& vets) because the industry has really taken the “its a food allergy or sensitivity” ball and run with it, making a lot of $$ from people desperate to help their pets. In actuality it often delays proper testing, such as an actual elimination diet or checking for an environmental allergen or other health condition such as the thyroid issue mentioned by other members above. I always say do the deep dive & look into these things so you know if what they claim is accurate.

Some links related to this topic:

https://www.veterinarypracticenews.com/adverse-food-reactions-february-2019/

https://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/2017/01/food-allergies/

Https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/30371955/
 
Sienne and Gabby (GA) said:
With Lantus, you need to be attentive to back-to-back reductions. While it's tempting to reduce if you get low numbers in two cycles, in reality what you may be seeing is an overly full depot that's pulling the numbers down because the first dose reduction hasn't had enough time to cause the level of insulin in the depot to respond. In other words, the depot didn't have enough time to catch up to the first reduction. In addition, you skipped a shot. I'm not entirely sure why you did that.
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October 5 Condo

Hi Sienne,

I’ve linked the condo above where I had gotten various advice on Mowgli’s extreme low BG reading where I eventually decided to:
1. Skip the shot
2. Give back to back reductions due to an extreme low

It was hard to filter through the advice for me in this case because I am really new to TR and this was my first extreme low with Mowgli. In the end I went with the most extreme method (a skipped pm shot and another reduction) because:
  • I don’t have a lot of data shooting low with Mowgli,
  • I had more that one member with TR experience suggesting each path forward and
  • I wanted to play it safe until I know Mowgli’s patterns in these numbers better.
I skipped the shot because multiple members suggested it. I thought that if I skipped and went on with the 0.5u for the next dose it would work out but then later I reduced again because one members advice was that reductions were strongly suggested when we see numbers under 30 - even if it is a back to back and if the reduction fails we can work our way back up. This was logical to me. That member agreed with you that I probably shouldn’t have skipped the PM shot and that maybe a one time reduced dose would have been better.

Sorry to explain the long way but to summarize: With my lack of experience I doubled down and accepted both pieces of advice. I hope to gain more confidence with what is right for Mowgli moving forward :)

Sienne and Gabby (GA) said:
There's a very good chance you need to increase back up to 0.5u.
Click to expand...

I feel the same way. Do you think it’s ok to shoot 0.5u tonight?

One thought for your consideration. With TR, you will want to get comfortable with shooting low numbers. If you look at Gabby's SS, I would shoot anything above a 50. It can take a while to get comfortable shooting low and, frankly, it is completely counterintuitive. Often with shooting low, the numbers stay flat vs. dropping like a rock. The basic idea is "shoot low to stay low." However, ECID and you need to become comfortable enough with managing Mowgli's numbers to shoot low.
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100%

I do feel like I lack data for Mowgli but I also accept that I need to try shooting low to stay low and I am willing to do so. The above situation just made it foggy for me because Mowg went SO low! Already I notice a difference in Mowgli when I shoot low. He is much more flat and not prone to bouncing at all, I’m really into it!

I have a long weekend coming up so I am hoping a 0.5 depot can build up and I will have another chance to gather some more data on how low his doses are taking him.

Thanks for spending the time to provide some insight Sienne, I really appreciate it. Eventually I hope to build up the confidence you had with Gabby :)
 
Marje and Gracie said:
I’m on board with Sienne. After a dose reduction, the higher dose you reduced from can sometimes take as many as six cycles to no longer influence the BG. Usually, it’s less but I have seen up to six. Certainly, if you get a 30 something number around cycle four post reduction, it’s safest to reduce again.
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In Mowgli’s situation I do largely think it was the 0.75u depot in play combined with the 0.5u dose that caused him to go so low on the 5th.

I see both your and Sienne’s points for sure that maybe in Mowgli’s case I didn’t need the back to back reductions, especially in combination with a skipped dose. I’m going to have to learn when and where each method is appropriate. In saying that If I hadn’t gotten any advice on the 5th I probably would have skipped the dose on the PMPS of the 5th and continued with 0.5u the next day.

Thanks for the info on how long the depot can remain in play. I’ve suspected that in Mowgli before but wasn’t fully sure if that was what was going on.

Marje and Gracie said:
One of the old timers, Libby, took a lot of BTB reductions when Lucy was sliding down the dosing scale and then Lucy stopped cold and her BG skyrocketed. Libby had to gradually take her up past the dose where she started the slides and then gradually brought her back down, avoiding BTB reductions, and Lucy went OTJ. Here is Lucy’s SS. Look starting out 10/2008.
Click to expand...
Thanks, I’ve had a look. I can’t imagine dealing with that kind of slide!! She’s kept good notes on her rationale.

Can I ask then what is the deal with back to back reductions in extremely low numbers from your and @Sienne and Gabby (GA)’s point of view? How would you have handled Mowgli’s low on the 5th. Just looking for another point of view to consider if I find myself in that situation again.
 
Marje and Gracie said:
Amanda and @AliceMeowliss&Cassandra

Dr. Dodd’s with Hemopet does a food sensitivity test called Nutriscan. My holistic vet sees a lot of pets with itching, excessive grooming, etc. Nutriscan is not an allergy test but a food sensitivity test. When my little one, Liv, started seeing very mild elevations in her ALT, we did the Nutriscan and found she had a sensitivity to white fish....which was the component of her daily fish oil. (I never feed fish). I’ve also just had the test done on Tobey and am awaiting results. We have Nationwide insurance and as long as I document that my vet suggested it, they paid for it.

My feeling is, even if insurance doesn’t pay, it’s well worth it and will save your kitty discomfort and you money and time. It’s a saliva test that you do at home and I found it easy to do with both my cats....and Livia has a tiny mouth but we got the saliva (it doesn’t take much).
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Thanks for the info Marje!

Mowgli has been an excessive groomer his whole life. If you pat him he loves it but as soon as you’re done he bathes himself. There is no irritation where he is losing fur, just thinning fur.

I will look into the test you’ve mentioned :)
 
Beth 73 said:
Amanda , prob doesn’t apply but when I had one that was “ barbering” it was hyperthyroid....can be a symptom of ....just a thot
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Thanks Beth, I’ve never heard of that, I’ll have to look it up and see if Mowgli presents any other symptoms :)
 
Sonia & Leo said:
I'm not sure when to call it a fail since all WE ever do is increase :rolleyes: but I'm sure you'll get an experienced answer soon.
Why do they always puke somewhere where you're definitely going to step in it? I hope it's nothing serious.
Great news about Nyx and the supplements working. :bighug:
Have a wonderful day Amanda!
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Thanks Sonia!

Nyx is a notorious puker. She has an innate sense of just where you step that you’d never notice if she puked there. A true talent :P she has always been a bit of a puker her whole life.
 
TSP said:
I am all about finding an easier way if there is one for food sensitivity, but unfortunately, the only reliable, accurate test still as of today is the elimination diet. It remains the gold standard for humans as well, whether it be for puritis or auto immune disorders. It is not easy but it is accurate. Unfortunately, testing using saliva, hair & even blood have produced a lot of false positives resulting in beliefs that a person or animal is unable to consume certain foods when in actuality the foods are fine. None of the tests have been able to be scientifically validated & one recent publication (dogs) sent some stuffed animal fur & tap water in to one of the hair follicle & saliva companies & they had sensitivities as well! For some additional info pertaining to this topic, which includes study info pertaining to blood, hair & saliva testing, I will attach some links.

I think if you do one of these tests & happen to coincidently end up with your pet feeling better that is awesome, but it is just important to know that these tests have not been found to be accurate/validated in either humans or pets & you either simply got lucky or it is pure coincidence.

This is a hot button for me (& vets) because the industry has really taken the “its a food allergy or sensitivity” ball and run with it, making a lot of $$ from people desperate to help their pets. In actuality it often delays proper testing, such as an actual elimination diet or checking for an environmental allergen or other health condition such as the thyroid issue mentioned by other members above. I always say do the deep dive & look into these things so you know if what they claim is accurate.

Some links related to this topic:

https://www.veterinarypracticenews.com/adverse-food-reactions-february-2019/

https://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/2017/01/food-allergies/

Https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/30371955/
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Thanks Amy! I can always count on you for mass amounts of data!!

I’ll take a look through these resources as a part of my research! Elimination diet is soooo much work ;)
 
If you're curious about what failed reductions look like, take a look at Luci's SS last year especially...we were running up and down the dosing ladder constantly.

Finally with Lev, things seem to have settled out...not as many decreases...but then on the other hand..not as many failed reductions...fingers and paws crossed that her first reduction on Lev actually holds...she's famous for her failed reducies...

Hope you can get it all sorted out soon :)
 
So then... what do I do with a 97 +11? lol stay steady at 0.25 or go back up to 0.5 15 mins til pmps
 
AmandaE said:
Thanks Amy! I can always count on you for mass amounts of data!!

I’ll take a look through these resources as a part of my research! Elimination diet is soooo much work ;)
Click to expand...

:p LOL! It IS crazy work & baffling how there’s not an easier way by now. I have searched & searched, made phone calls. Frustrating!

Now, on a much easier note, sometimes the cat over grooms or gets at an area for a reason but then it becomes a habit or behavioral issue vs food or medical. My big boy, Kramer, literally licked an area on the underside of his tail until it was opened, bleeding & required antibiotics. He had to wear a little neck collar to keep him away from it. He didn’t even make an attempt to get at it once it healed so we took the collar off & sure enough he licked it again but not so bad. This time I kept the collar on beyond it healing & let the fur grow back & to break what I thought could be some cat OCD :D. I figured go there first & see. He is fine & hopefully will continue to be fine. It’s been months. I will say if I had the collar on & he was insistent on trying to get at it, I would have been more likely to move on to the possibility of environmental allergies & then food sensitivity. I would never leave him itchy—that would be bad :(.
 
TSP said:
I am all about finding an easier way if there is one for food sensitivity, but unfortunately, the only reliable, accurate test still as of today is the elimination diet. It remains the gold standard for humans as well, whether it be for puritis or auto immune disorders. It is not easy but it is accurate. Unfortunately, testing using saliva, hair & even blood have produced a lot of false positives resulting in beliefs that a person or animal is unable to consume certain foods when in actuality the foods are fine. None of the tests have been able to be scientifically validated & one recent publication (dogs) sent some stuffed animal fur & tap water in to one of the hair follicle & saliva companies & they had sensitivities as well! For some additional info pertaining to this topic, which includes study info pertaining to blood, hair & saliva testing, I will attach some links.

I think if you do one of these tests & happen to coincidently end up with your pet feeling better that is awesome, but it is just important to know that these tests have not been found to be accurate/validated in either humans or pets & you either simply got lucky or it is pure coincidence.

This is a hot button for me (& vets) because the industry has really taken the “its a food allergy or sensitivity” ball and run with it, making a lot of $$ from people desperate to help their pets. In actuality it often delays proper testing, such as an actual elimination diet or checking for an environmental allergen or other health condition such as the thyroid issue mentioned by other members above. I always say do the deep dive & look into these things so you know if what they claim is accurate.

Some links related to this topic:

https://www.veterinarypracticenews.com/adverse-food-reactions-february-2019/

https://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/2017/01/food-allergies/

Https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/30371955/
Click to expand...
I beg to differ about Nutriscan. It is nowhere near along the same lines as the other tests. And it certainly is not Dr. Dodd’s’ modus operandi to just milk people of money. My own vet used it for her dog that she adopted who had the worst skin condition from allergies that I’ve ever seen. Once she identified the food sensitivities and removed them, Pearl looks and acts like a different dog. It’s not an isolated incident.

Further, let me point out that the last article you linked was based on one dog. I’m a scientist and that is a laughable sample size; however, that is the least issue with that particular article. Nutriscan is scientifically based. A summary:

We have tested more than 17,000 canine samples with NutriScan by the spring of 2017, and since starting cats at the end of September 2013, we have tested over 750. Two double-blind clinical trials have been conducted in the USA and Europe, and results validated the NutriScan test and affirmed its clinical utility.
Click to expand...

Nutriscan is not a food allergy test. It’s a food sensitivity test; there is a difference. It’s suggested that those interested should read about it on the website before making all-inclusive statements regarding invalidity.

sorry for the condo hijack.....
 
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If you don’t see anything lower that the 90’s tonight, I think you can increase tomorrow. Mowgli is not new to greens. Plus what Marje said.;)
 
AmandaE said:
Thanks for the info Marje!

Mowgli has been an excessive groomer his whole life. If you pat him he loves it but as soon as you’re done he bathes himself. There is no irritation where he is losing fur, just thinning fur.

I will look into the test you’ve mentioned :)
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Excessive grooming by itself can just be due to a nervous condition or overstimulation. :)
 
Sue and Luci said:
If you're curious about what failed reductions look like, take a look at Luci's SS last year especially...we were running up and down the dosing ladder constantly.

Finally with Lev, things seem to have settled out...not as many decreases...but then on the other hand..not as many failed reductions...fingers and paws crossed that her first reduction on Lev actually holds...she's famous for her failed reducies...

Hope you can get it all sorted out soon :)
Click to expand...
Thanks Sue! I will have a look :)
 
TSP said:
:p LOL! It IS crazy work & baffling how there’s not an easier way by now. I have searched & searched, made phone calls. Frustrating!

Now, on a much easier note, sometimes the cat over grooms or gets at an area for a reason but then it becomes a habit or behavioral issue vs food or medical. My big boy, Kramer, literally licked an area on the underside of his tail until it was opened, bleeding & required antibiotics. He had to wear a little neck collar to keep him away from it. He didn’t even make an attempt to get at it once it healed so we took the collar off & sure enough he licked it again but not so bad. This time I kept the collar on beyond it healing & let the fur grow back & to break what I thought could be some cat OCD :D. I figured go there first & see. He is fine & hopefully will continue to be fine. It’s been months. I will say if I had the collar on & he was insistent on trying to get at it, I would have been more likely to move on to the possibility of environmental allergies & then food sensitivity. I would never leave him itchy—that would be bad :(.
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I have a feeling it is a habitual behaviour, he has always just been an overgroomer, I wouldnt have thought of a cone... something to consider for sure... you kept it on him the WHOLE time? for how long?
 
AmandaE said:
I have a feeling it is a habitual behaviour, he has always just been an overgroomer, I wouldnt have thought of a cone... something to consider for sure... you kept it on him the WHOLE time? for how long?
Click to expand...

He actually did NOT do well in the cone so I went with a Kong cloud collar instead. You could try it. In some cases depending on how flexible your cat is he may be able to get to his legs. My guy couldn’t get to his spot :).

https://www.chewy.com/kong-cloud-co...MImI2bzoaO5QIVDGKGCh2cMQrdEAQYASABEgJiI_D_BwE
 
carfurby said:
@Marje and Gracie @Wendy&Neko I thought what I quoted applied because she was thinking of increasing and new to TR. Sorry for any confusion.
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Thanks, Carla. It would only apply after she increased under TR. If she has reduced under TR, even if she’d only been doing it a few days, it wouldn’t apply.

It applies only when an increase has occurred and we are looking at data to see if and when to raise again.:):bighug:
 
AmandaE said:
In Mowgli’s situation I do largely think it was the 0.75u depot in play combined with the 0.5u dose that caused him to go so low on the 5th.

I see both your and Sienne’s points for sure that maybe in Mowgli’s case I didn’t need the back to back reductions, especially in combination with a skipped dose. I’m going to have to learn when and where each method is appropriate. In saying that If I hadn’t gotten any advice on the 5th I probably would have skipped the dose on the PMPS of the 5th and continued with 0.5u the next day.

Thanks for the info on how long the depot can remain in play. I’ve suspected that in Mowgli before but wasn’t fully sure if that was what was going on.

Thanks, I’ve had a look. I can’t imagine dealing with that kind of slide!! She’s kept good notes on her rationale.

Can I ask then what is the deal with back to back reductions in extremely low numbers from your and @Sienne and Gabby (GA)’s point of view? How would you have handled Mowgli’s low on the 5th. Just looking for another point of view to consider if I find myself in that situation again.
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I know that was scary. Believe me, Gracie loved to drop into low numbers so I’ve dealt with more than my share.

I would have shot 0.25 that night, on time, realizing that I would probably need to go back up. I know that sounds opposite of what I said earlier but I was just explaining why his reduction might have failed and when you want to be cautious about taking a BTB reduction.

I’m not sure where this “draining the depot” thing got started but and I’ve seen it happening the last few years and it’s not something anyone on the board did in the 5.5 years Gracie was diabetic except perhaps the very occasional high dose cat CG in an extenuating circumstance. (@Nan & Amber).

It’s not beneficial to the cat. In fact, once the CG has data and is not brand new and as long as the BG is above 50 (human meter) or 68 (pet meter) and the CG has supplies and is able and available to test, the best thing for the kitty is shooting on time with the full dose.

Besides new members where we are teaching them to shoot lower and lower as they gather data, other members don’t need to skip or stall unless the BG is too low to shoot or the CG is sick or not available to monitor. Generally, in consideration of the above, skipping and stalling is for the CG, not the kitty. Skipping to drain the depot is not a “method” and has little benefit unless, potentially, you are dealing with a really high dose cat and have had a long cycle of fighting numbers.

Questions??
 
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No questions, that all makes sense.

In understanding that this is a peer reviewed board, I have read quite a bit about skipping to drain the depot. Especially in extremely dangerous situations (Tucker down under comes to mind) sometimes I personally think skipping makes sense. In saying that, I do agree that Mowgli was at a shootable number October 5 PM, I had freaked myself out about the depot, and automatically already had the option of skipping at the back of my head. I had also read multiple times about not doing back to back reductions but I thought because Mowg had gone so low that again... it would make sense to limit his insulin. Lessons learned right?

In the future I will be more aware that skipping to drain the depot is more of an urban myth and ought not to be used unless you aren't able to monitor your kitty when shooting lower numbers, or if PS is just much too low. To be honest.. The first time I had heard that we shouldnt always skip when you have a low low during the cycle was from Wendy on the 5th. I just hadn't been exposed to that point of view yet.

There are many different members that have a lot of experience that I highly respect, it can be hard to filter through the offered guidance. I definitely need more experience to really feel out all of the different information that is present on the board. I also feel a little like Im starting close to the beginning again because of getting familiar with TR and Mowgli is just at a whole new and totally exciting level now with lower numbers and less bouncing. I am looking forward to picking up more of these 'new' tidbits and getting better at the whole thing. Next time im in a similar situation I might DM you with the link to my condo for additional advice :)

Anyway! I know I will get there :D There is a lot of guidance to be had around here :P
 
@Marje and Gracie
Marje and Gracie said:
I beg to differ about Nutriscan. It is nowhere near along the same lines as the other tests. And it certainly is not Dr. Dodd’s’ modus operandi to just milk people of money. My own vet used it for her dog that she adopted who had the worst skin condition from allergies that I’ve ever seen. Once she identified the food sensitivities and removed them, Pearl looks and acts like a different dog. It’s not an isolated incident.

Further, let me point out that the last article you linked was based on one dog. I’m a scientist and that is a laughable sample size; however, that is the least issue with that particular article. Nutriscan is scientifically based. A summary:



Nutriscan is not a food allergy test. It’s a food sensitivity test; there is a difference. It’s suggested that those interested should read about it on the website before making all-inclusive statements regarding invalidity.

sorry for the condo hijack.....
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Yes, people do need to read, investigate, find out beyond product websites if there is evidence for a product, statement or if it is simply opinion. I did read the website-thoroughly. It is fascinating that you assumed & then went on to suggest that I should read the website when clearly you either didn't read the link in its entirety or just misread the link, specifically the link with the study about the dogs. It was one company's testing that was used, not one dog. Yes, reading something before commenting is important. I encourage anyone reading this to read the studies in their entirety. One study does not attempt to support or refute but instead validate the science. I am very hopeful that readers interested in this subject not only read the links I attached & the website you are suggesting they read, but in addition, please go on PubMed, University websites etc to find the facts:bookworm:. Take the time to fact checko_O. Do not drink the Kool Aid sort of speak :p. After working in the medical field for years, including within academic research settings, I also worked within the specialty pharma industry. During training, I would make sure to talk to other reps about reading the literature outside of the company studies & training, talking to physicians about clinical experience & so forth. AKA- Seek to understand vs. what you are simply being told from one source. That is never good.

Most important, this was never a personal attack nor was it a direct attack on Nutriscan or the company's owner, but instead simply the current reality of what is & what is not possible for testing for both food sensitivity &/or food allergy testing. Yes, I do know the difference between the two, including the differences in what is being tested for with one (allergy) vs the other(sensitivity). I stand behind my statements because it is simply the science that exists right now. Don't shoot the messenger :eek:. Interestingly enough, one of the more recent published studies in The Veterinary Journal, 245 (2019) 1-6 " "Testing for food-specific antibodies in saliva and blood of food allergic and healthy dogs" L. Udraite Vovka,*, A.Watson b, W.J.Dodd sc, C.J.Klingera, J.Classena, R.S.Mueller regarding saliva testing and actually included the vet/owner of Nutriscan (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30819419) & the study further supported the current science that saliva cannot be recommended at this time:

Conclusions:

"This study demonstrated that positive serum and saliva test results could not be used to reliably confirm adverse food reaction in dogs. Negative results did not reliably rule out a reaction to the allergen in question.The large number of positive reactions on salivary testing in the group of healthy dogs without any clinical signs of AFR and a similar number of positive reactions in normal dogs and dogs with confirmed adverse reactions to food in this study provides evidence that until further data is obtained, these tests cannot be recommended for the diagnosis of cutaneous adverse food reactions. Elimination diets remain the reference standard in the diagnostic work-up of food-related allergic disease."

Also of note, the owner of Nutriscan asked for what is called a "Corrigendum" to be added upon revision of the publication (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1090023319300127?via=ihub) which ended up being essentially the same information that you reposted from the Nutriscan website. If you read it, her references to support her statements include only 2 studies, both done by her, & one study is solely by her (https://nutriscan.org/wp-content/uploads/documents/Nutriscan_Article_2017.pdf). Again, this is not what is known as "validated science":bookworm:. The fact that she participated in the more recent study with vets such as Dr. Vovk & Klinger, Classen & Mueller all from an academic center (Center for Clinical Veterinary Medicine, Ludwig-Maximilian University, Germany) & Dr. Watson who works for Royal Canin to try to move the ball forward & actually validate this testing further is excellent. Unfortunately, it did not validate it:(. This is an example of what I mean by "scientifically validated". One study or even a couple studies by one investigator or one academic center need repeating & for the studies to produce similar results in order to ultimately validate that a test or treatment actually produces similar or the same results. Obviously, the validity is even stronger when an independent researcher or group is able to produce similar or the same results as the original invesigator(s). Once this happens, then you see a test or treatment supported & recommended by the medical community.

The area of saliva testing or what is known as salivaomics (tongue emoji :)) is fascinating & there is great promise & hope with it. Unfortunately, it is just not ready for prime time yet:banghead:, but it is getting there. There are issues with biomarker specificity, variability of diagnostic devices & laboratory analysis techniques, to name a few.

On a last note, having worked within research settings & also having been somewhat of a "lab rat" with one of my own medical issues, sometimes we try treatments that have not actually been validated yet. We are the subjects or your pet is the subject needed to try to validate a new diagnostic tool or treatment. It is just important to know what the limitations, risks, as well as potential benefits & then decide for yourself whether or not to take that leap of faith :).

Peace :bighug:.....& apology for the final condo hijak ;):mad:! This would be a good thread that could potentially be kept up to date as research & testing advances. There are SO many of our pets (and owners) who have food sensitivities that can potentially effect health or make some disease states worse:(.
 
TSP said:
@Marje and Gracie
It is fascinating that you assumed & then went on to suggest that I should read the website when clearly you either didn't read the link in its entirety or just misread the link, specifically the link with the study about the dogs. It was one company's testing that was used, not one dog.
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From the last study link, bold is mine.
MATERIALS AND METHODS: Ten fur and saliva samples were submitted from a known allergic dog and a normal, non-allergic dog. Five fake fur samples and water were also submitted to determine whether the test could differentiate between a real dog and toy animal. The company performed testing for 128 food and environmental allergens. Statistical analyses were performed to determine whether the response distribution differed significantly between dogs, using the Pearson chi-square coefficient, as well as to determine test-retest reliability by calculating Cohen's kappa for each allergen.
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My bad...it was one allergic dog and one non allergic dog. I missed the latter.:p

I am interested in discussing further but no more condo hijack; it’s become a non learning experience regarding FD so I will just PM you as I’m interested in your post. And, yes, there are other health conditions that affect our kitties but this ballooned. Thanks! :):)

Sorry, Amanda!:bighug:
 
Marje and Gracie said:
From the last study link, bold is mine.


My bad...it was one allergic dog and one non allergic dog. I missed the latter.:p

It was actually 15 dogs:)—-well 10 dogs & then the 5 stuffed dogs :D

I am interested in discussing further but no more condo hijack; it’s become a non learning experience regarding FD so I will just PM you as I’m interested in your post. And, yes, there are other health conditions that affect our kitties but this ballooned. Thanks! :):)

Sounds good :cool:!!

Sorry, Amanda!:bighug:
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Right? :bighug:She will never talk about over grooming cats again...LOL!!
 
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