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Sherry and Blackie

Member Since 2019
Hi All!
Blackie was diagnosed 2 months ago. Started Lantus at 2 units, then 3, then 4. Numbers running in 400-500. Vet tests a fasting number once a week or more. Switched to Purina DM one month ago. Just purchased wet food today. Vet switched to Novolun Thursday. I’m thinking I should go back to Lantus ???? I’m just confused about what to do. Any help would be appreciated.
 
do you have a meter to test the blood glucose? if not, strongly suggest you get one; those marketed for humans are fine for cats, that's what most of us use

home testing before shooting insulin is CRUCIAL -- as you'll find everyone here will tell you

without knowing the data on that, it's just a guess, but I bet you will find that the dose is too high, perhaps WAY too high, which would account for those high numbers

testing at the vet often inflates the BG numbers, doesn't give you a good picture of how the cat's system is actually working -- kind of like the "white coat syndrome" in humans -- just being at the vet, and the journey there and back, will inflate the BG numbers, sometimes by an enormous amount

of course it depends on if there is something else going on with your cat ... that's something you, and we, need to find out about

would be very curious about why the vet switched you from Lantus (which is often very good for cats) to Novolin which tends to put the cat into high-low cycles, and often fails to last between injections --

I defer to anything the more experienced members may say -- just my opinion, have been at this only a few months
 
do you have a meter to test the blood glucose? if not, strongly suggest you get one; those marketed for humans are fine for cats, that's what most of us use

home testing before shooting insulin is CRUCIAL -- as you'll find everyone here will tell you

without knowing the data on that, it's just a guess, but I bet you will find that the dose is too high, perhaps WAY too high, which would account for those high numbers

testing at the vet often inflates the BG numbers, doesn't give you a good picture of how the cat's system is actually working -- kind of like the "white coat syndrome" in humans -- just being at the vet, and the journey there and back, will inflate the BG numbers, sometimes by an enormous amount

of course it depends on if there is something else going on with your cat ... that's something you, and we, need to find out about

would be very curious about why the vet switched you from Lantus (which is often very good for cats) to Novolin which tends to put the cat into high-low cycles, and often fails to last between injections --

I defer to anything the more experienced members may say -- just my opinion, have been at this only a few months
Hi. I'm am going to get meter tomorrow and start home testing. I questioned vet why numbercwas not changing he said we could increase dose or change insulin. He said maybe Lantus just wasn't a fit . I'm my ignorance I said let's try something else. However I also started educating myself and have come to the conclusion I don't know what I'm doing. ☹️
do you have a meter to test the blood glucose? if not, strongly suggest you get one; those marketed for humans are fine for cats, that's what most of us use

home testing before shooting insulin is CRUCIAL -- as you'll find everyone here will tell you

without knowing the data on that, it's just a guess, but I bet you will find that the dose is too high, perhaps WAY too high, which would account for those high numbers

testing at the vet often inflates the BG numbers, doesn't give you a good picture of how the cat's system is actually working -- kind of like the "white coat syndrome" in humans -- just being at the vet, and the journey there and back, will inflate the BG numbers, sometimes by an enormous amount

of course it depends on if there is something else going on with your cat ... that's something you, and we, need to find out about

would be very curious about why the vet switched you from Lantus (which is often very good for cats) to Novolin which tends to put the cat into high-low cycles, and often fails to last between injections --

I defer to anything the more experienced members may say -- just my opinion, have been at this only a few months
 
Sherry, you are on your way to helping Blackie feel much better.

Let's get the housekeeping done so we can see Blackie's info easily whenever you post:

1. Setting up your signature (light grey text under a post). Here's how:
click on your name in the upper right corner of this page
click on "signature" in the menu that drops down
type the following in the box that opens: kitty's name/age/date of diabetes diagnosis/insulin you're using and dosage amount /glucose meter you're using/what (s)he eats/any other meds or health issues (s)he has. You can add your name, and a geographic location (sometimes the country/time zone matters) Be sure to SAVE when you are finished.
2. Another thing that will help us help you when you get started BG testing at home is to set up a spreadsheet like the one we use here. You will see how the trends and patterns emerge, and members can review his/her progress before offering suggestions or advice:
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/understanding-the-spreadsheet-grid.156606/

If you have problems or can't set the spreadsheet up, let us know, there are members who can help or set up for you.

Do you still have the Lantus insulin? If you do, I would like to consult the experienced Lantus users to see if you should change back to that insulin. It is a depot insulin, so it takes a little time to build up that depot, so you are not going to see immediate results. But Lantus is very effective for cats.

What dose of Novolin are you using now?

Here are some suggestions that member Chris & China (GA) made for new members about preparing a kitty for testing:

Here's something I wrote up for others for testing...maybe it'll help you too!

It can be really helpful to establish a routine with testing. Pick one spot that you want your "testing spot" to be (I like the kitchen counter because it's got good light and it's at a good height....it also already blocked 2 escape routes due to the wall and the backsplash) It can be anywhere though...a rug on the floor, a table, a particular spot on the couch...wherever is good for you.

Take him there as many times a day as you can and just give his ears a quick rub and then he gets a yummy (low carb) treat. Most cats aren't objecting so much with the poking..it's the fooling with their ears they don't like, but once they're desensitized to it and learn to associate a certain place with the treats, they usually start to come when they're called! Or even when they hear us opening the test kit!

You also have to remember...you're not poking him to hurt him...you're testing him to keep him safe and understand what's going on inside his body. There's just nothing better than truly understanding what's going on inside your kitty's body and with this disease, the more knowledge you have, the more power you have against it. The edges of the ears have very few pain receptors, so it really doesn't hurt them. Also, if you're nervous and tense, it's going to make your kitty nervous and tense too. As silly as it might seem, try singing! It forces you to use a different part of your brain!

It's also important to make sure his ear is warm. A small sock filled with a little rice and microwaved or a small pill bottle filled with warm water (check temp against your wrist like you would a baby bottle) works well

For new kitties, using a heavier gauge lancet is also really helpful. A 25-28 gauge lancet pokes a bigger "hole" than a 31-33 gauge lancet does, so look for "Alternate Site testing" lancets that are usually a lower number

Finding the right "treat" will be a great help too! Freeze dried chicken, bonito flakes, little pieces of baked chicken...whatever low carb treat you can find that he really enjoys will help him to associate the testing with the treat! China's Achilles heel was baked chicken, so I'd bake a piece, chop it into bite sized pieces, put some in the refrigerator and freeze the rest to use as needed. It didn't take long for her to come any time I picked up the meter!
******************

It's a process of practice and patience, for both human and kitty. Not many of us were immediately successful, and it takes time.

It's really important to test before every injection, to be sure it's safe to do so, and then at least once during the 12 hour cycle between shots.

I know this is a lot, Sherry, but don't let it stop you. This is a way to learn what to do, and why it's done this way here. All the information you will read here has been compiled over a long time, relying on experience and finding what really works.
 
What dosage of Novolin are you injecting. What brand and variety of canned food is he eating now? What was he eating and when (if you already) did you change the diet?
 
The dose was being raised way too much at a time. Novolin is not a long lasting insulin. Stick with the lantus. I’m glad to hear you are getting a meter. I have a video in my signature showing how I test my cat CC.
Thank you all. I am so grateful to have found this help. I know my vet means well, but I was getting so frustrated. I feel 1000 percent better on getting a plan and helping him.
 
Have you done the evening injection of Novolin yet? If you have changed Blackie to a low carb diet abruptly, that can lower his BG significantly, so we need to be careful here to prevent a hypo.

Ok, read your last post. Sherry, I am no expert but I would NOT inject that 4 units of Novolin. Let's see if we can tag in some experienced members to advise, ok?

@Wendy&Neko
@MrWorfMen's Mom
@Nan & Amber
@Bron and Sheba (GA)
@Chris & China (GA)
 
Have you done the evening injection of Novolin yet? If you have changed Blackie to a low carb diet abruptly, that can lower his BG significantly, so we need to be careful here to prevent a hypo.

Ok, read your last post. Sherry, I am no expert but I would NOT inject that 4 units of Novolin. Let's see if we can tag in some experienced members to advise, ok?

@Wendy&Neko
@MrWorfMen's Mom
@Nan & Amber
@Bron and Sheba (GA)
@Chris & China (GA)
Thank you . I'll get the meter tomorrow after church.
 
Hello and welcome!

It's really hard to advise before you have any BG data, but we definitely want to make sure Blackie is safe in the meantime. I have a few questions that might help figure this out:

1) is the Purina DM that you have been feeding dry or canned? They have very different carb counts.
2) is the 4U dosage the dose you were giving of Lantus (transferred to Novalin)?
3) sounds like you still have a supply of Lantus on-hand, correct?
4) does Blackie have any history of DKA/ketones?
5) is it possible to leave Blackie food to eat overnight?
 
Hi and welcome to FDMB, the place you never wanted to be.

First of all, I have to agree that given the choice between insulins, I would recommend Lantus over Novolin in a heart beat. Novolin often last far less than 12 hours and that sends kitty into a roller coaster ride of highs and lows and often not feeling very well.

Your vet may think another insulin is needed but he/she obviously doesn't understand how Lantus works, increases doses by too much all at once and may very well have been overdosing Blackie which surprisingly can make it look like kitty needs more insulin rather than less. In short, I don't think your vet understands the differences between insulins or how any of them work in cats.

Kudos for deciding to home test Blackie. That is by far the best tool we have to keep our kitties safe and get them onto the path of better health.

Nan has asked some very good pertinent questions all of which will have some effect on recommendations we might make. If you still have Lantus available, I would seriously consider switching back. Much easier on both kitty and you.
 
Hello and welcome!

It's really hard to advise before you have any BG data, but we definitely want to make sure Blackie is safe in the meantime. I have a few questions that might help figure this out:

1) is the Purina DM that you have been feeding dry or canned? They have very different carb counts.
2) is the 4U dosage the dose you were giving of Lantus (transferred to Novalin)?
3) sounds like you still have a supply of Lantus on-hand, correct?
4) does Blackie have any history of DKA/ketones?
5) is it possible to leave Blackie food to eat overnight?
Hi. Purina Dm is dry. I do have Lantus left. Have 4 units this evening. I can leave dry food out overnight.
 
Purina DM dry is 18% carbs much too high for a diabetic cat. The DM wet pate is ok at about 6% but the Savory Selects are 10% and again a little higher than recommended. We generally suggest 6% or under for most kitties.

Before you do any diet changing though, get testing and into a routine. Diet change to lower carbs can make a very significant difference for some cats so it's important to be testing before removing the kibble from the diet as insulin dose can change a lot in a short period of time and only with testing can you keep Blackie safe.
 
Although it's too high in carbs in general, as Linda points out, being able to leave some of the dry out overnight tonight is great. That will give him something to graze on and boost his BG if he starts going low (most cats will do that). And until you have the testing down, you don't want to change his diet too much-- it can have a huge effect on BG, so you need to be testing to keep him safe during the transition (especially when he's getting such a big dose of insulin).
 
As long as diet is not changed, until we get some data to look at, it's impossible to guess what would be appropriate dose wise. If you think Blackie is not feeling well and there is no history of ketones, it might be Ok to reduce dose but by how much is nothing short of a shot in the dark right now. Let's get a few BGs and then decide what the best next steps are.
 
I got a meter today at walmart relion blu and after 12 tries I got a reading. It was 463. My husband had given him his shot of 4units of lantus 4 hours earlier. Should I test again before his next shot is due ? and then should I stay with the 4 units or try the slow go method and start all over at 1unit.
 
I agree swapping back to Lantus is a good idea.
If you can tell us if Blackie has ever had ketones, that would be a help.
Super you are going to test the blood glucose levels!
Ive never tested for ketones and I dont really understand what they are . I am reading up on those here . I will get testing strips for that. It is all very overwhelming and expensive.
 
Congratulations on your first test!!!!! :woot:

463 is a relatively high number, but we won't be able to interpret it except in the context of other tests over time.

Next step: test before each shot. The goal here is twofold: gathering more data, but mostly, making sure it's safe to give the shot. For caregivers new to testing, we don't recommend shooting under 150 without some experienced hands guiding you, and I might even bump that threshhold up a bit given the large dose Blackie is on. Tonight, given where Blackie is now, I'd definitely be extra cautious if he's much lower than that 463 at shot time.

The usual procedure when you hit a low pre-shot is to "stall": post here for advice, wait 20-30mins (without feeding a meal) and get another test to get an idea of the trajectory.

Ive never tested for ketones and I dont really understand what they are . I am reading up on those here . I will get testing strips for that. It is all very overwhelming and expensive.

Believe it or not, it's actually a good thing that you aren't familiar with ketones at this stage! We're asking because, if Blackie had ever shown ketones or been in DKA, it makes it much trickier to lower an insulin dose, even if the BG alone were to show that to be necessary. DKA is a life-threatening condition, and one of the elements that can trigger it in a diabetic is not enough insulin (there are other triggers as well), so if we know we have a ketone-prone cat, we are very very cautious about reducing insulin.

You'll be relieved to find out that the test strips for ketones, at least, are relatively cheap :), especially considering you'll go through far fewer of them than the BG strips. It all does get easier to manage, I promise!
 
Congratulations on your first test!!!!! NaN has given you some great advice. Do get that Preshot test and let us know the number Have you tried again to introduce the low carb wet food?
 
should I stay with the 4 units or try the slow go method and start all over at 1unit.

For now, we'll hold off on any dosing changes until we have more BG data, so plan on sticking with 4U tonight.

THE EXCEPTION: if you do get a lower-than-expected BG number for the pre-shot tonight, do the "stall" described earlier and post for advice before shooting any dose.
 
Do you plan on doing a few more tests before you go to bed?
You really should so that the members can see how the dosage and the tests after that are and will tell if his dosage has to be adjusted
Thanks for the like Bron, I'm still sort of new here but at least I'm sure about that lol
I have learned so much from Linda, Tyler's guardian angel and from reading about everyone's experiences. I know I have more to learn before ever giving anyone advice on dosing, but the things I am sure about I try to help out @Bron and Sheba (GA)
 
I just tested +2 hours after evening shot 391. No change ? Probably won't test anymore tonight. Plan to feed wet food at 6am. Then test before AM shot and test and lunch which would be +5. Will that help? Thank you all.
 
I just tested +2 hours after evening shot 391. No change ? Probably won't test anymore tonight. Plan to feed wet food at 6am. Then test before AM shot and test and lunch which would be +5. Will that help? Thank you all.
If you can try to get one more test in, the more the better. On weekends I assume you can get a lot more tests in, try to scatter them, maybe a+3, +6. +9 what ever you can do. You said you were going to feed Black is at 6:00 am, and test at 8:00 am. Try not to feed him 2 hours before you test in the am and pm.
Test, feed, shoot
 
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If you can try to get one more test in, the more the better. On weekends I assume you can get a lot more tests in, try to scatter them. You said you were going to feed Black is at 6:00 am, and test at 8:00 am. Try not to feed him 2 hours before you test in the am and pm.
Test, feed, shoot
So test then shoot then feed in AM?
 
No first you test him to see what his sugar is, then you feed him and then give him the insulin
1. Test - to check the blood glucose is high enough to warrant that insulin dose.
2. Feed - to ensure the kitty will have food on board when the insulin kicks in.
3. Shoot - give insulin.
@Bron and Sheba (GA) I don't want to give Sherry the wrong information, I usually wait 30 minutes after Tyler is done eating and then shoot. He is on Vetsulin, her cat is on Lantus do you also wait 30 minutes if on Lantus
 
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