New and need help

Stressedcatmom

Stressedcatmom

Member Since 2017
Hi everyone,

Yoshi was in remission for two years w prozinc and a really bad uti gave him high numbers 363 last night and 397 this am.

The vet only has lantus so that is what we are using. I’m at the vet now and she just gave him one unit.

I am hesitant to even go back on insulin because I don’t know if the infection caused the spike. The vet said the diabetes caused the infection most likely.

I’m using a pet meter since I was previously on prozinc. If I need to switch to a human meter I will eventually.

I guess I’m just looking for solace that he should be back on insulin. She said he had no keystones, but the glucose in the urine was at 1000. I have no idea what that means. I still feel like I could get him back in remission. If it wasn’t for this board last time it would’ve never happened.

Any advice is appreciated. Thank you so much
 
Never been in remission so I have zero experience or advice there. But, I can say that infection can definitely increase the BG. Do you have any recent BG readings? 1u of Lantus might be a bit much if they were otherwise in remission and the increased BG is just from the infection.
 
He is still in the back at the vet. She is waiting a bit to check BG after the shot.

He was at 150 in March and I hadn’t tested him until yesterday which was 363 and this am 390. He was drinking a lot of water and ravenous
 
Stressedcatmom said:
the glucose in the urine was at 1000. I have no idea what that means.
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Probably a fructosamine test. It tests the excess glucose in urine and basically gives a readout of the excess over a period of weeks. A high level means the BG has been high for a while-- that's probably why the vet is blaming the BG for the UTI and not the other way around.

Cats can and do go into remission a second time, although it is often harder. Lantus is an excellent insulin for cats, but it does work a bit differently from the ProZinc you are used to. The main difference is the "depot"-- there's a sticky about it on this forum, as well as stickies on the two main dosing methods we use here, Start Low Go Slow (SLGS) and Tight Regulation (TR).

We're happy to answer any questions you might have!
 
I would definitely pick up some steering food if you don't already have some, couple cans of something in the 8-10% carb range and then some gravy. And then start doing regular testing.
 
Stressedcatmom said:
Also I’m using alpha track 2 for readings I’m not sure how it differs from a human meter
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It's hard to make direct comparisons. In general, the AT2 will read higher numbers than a human meter. There's no formula to compare them, but the discrepancy does tend to be bigger at higher BG levels. The main number you need to keep in mind on an AT2 is the "take action" number of 68-- if BG ever drops below that, time for some high-carb food.

The dosing methods I mentioned (SLGS and TR) both assume that you're using a human meter, and those are the numbers that most of us are used to seeing and interpreting on this forum, so you'll probably find it helpful overall to switch. It's also nice that the strips tend to be much cheaper and easier to obtain for human meters!
 
Nan & Amber said:
Probably a fructosamine test. It tests the excess glucose in urine and basically gives a readout of the excess over a period of weeks. A high level means the BG has been high for a while-- that's probably why the vet is blaming the BG for the UTI and not the other way around.

Cats can and do go into remission a second time, although it is often harder. Lantus is an excellent insulin for cats, but it does work a bit differently from the ProZinc you are used to. The main difference is the "depot"-- there's a sticky about it on this forum, as well as stickies on the two main dosing methods we use here, Start Low Go Slow (SLGS) and Tight Regulation (TR).

We're happy to answer any questions you might have!
Click to expand...

She is telling me one unit 2x per day. She’s not a fan of testing at home but I am. She claims it stresses the cat out. It stresses him more out to be at the vet like he has been for hours.

How do the readings on the alpha track differ from human meter. I want to communicate to you the correct numbers
 
Nan & Amber said:
It's hard to make direct comparisons. In general, the AT2 will read higher numbers than a human meter. There's no formula to compare them, but the discrepancy does tend to be bigger at higher BG levels. The main number you need to keep in mind on an AT2 is the "take action" number of 68-- if BG ever drops below that, time for some high-carb food.

Thank you. I will switch eventually. I’ve spent hundreds today. 68 will be helpful for now. What is the skip a dose reading on lantus?

The dosing methods I mentioned (SLGS and TR) both assume that you're using a human meter, and those are the numbers that most of us are used to seeing and interpreting on this forum, so you'll probably find it helpful overall to switch. It's also nice that the strips tend to be much cheaper and easier to obtain for human meters!
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Stressedcatmom said:
She’s not a fan of testing at home but I am. She claims it stresses the cat out. It stresses him more out to be at the vet like he has been for hours.
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Yeah, you're absolutely correct. They need to be tested frequently, especially in this type of situation. And the vet is way more stressful than home testing. My cat doesn't care one bit about being tested at home.
 
Stressedcatmom said:
How do the readings on the alpha track differ from human meter. I want to communicate to you the correct numbers
Click to expand...

There's no direct comparison, other than the take-action numbers (68 on an AT2, 50 on a human meter). You can certainly keep using an AT2 to keep your kitty safe, but all the detailed recommendations on the stickies were written assuming a human meter, and there aren't AT2 equivalents for those numbers. So to get the full value of the experience here, I'd really encourage you to look into getting a human meter. I know it feels like an extra expense, but the expense will actually be less than you are used to for the AT2 strips, the meters themselves are quite cheap, and it will really make it much easier for you and Yoshi.
 
Lantus is a depot insulin. It must build up the reservoir which takes about 3 days. Your kitty will get some and the reservoir will get some of each shot.

You might see some dropping in the glucose so you need to monitor. Do not raise the dose regardless of what vet says for at least 7 days.

If the UTI caused the increase and antibiotics are given it could lower glucoses as abs start to work.
 
So that means it is stored somewhere and that is why it is important not to increase, or give a shot early if you have to (she told me it was ok + or - before or after scheduled shot time)?

Also I was a strict 12 hours on prozinc. I don’t care if I have to do the same w lantus. She doesn’t seem to think he will go into remission again “because he went into remission the first time because you went to wet food.” I also pulled back on insulin and weaned him off per advice of the group. I told her this contributed to it, and she doesn’t seem to agree.

Then I told her the more insulin I gave Yoshi, the higher his BG became at times. And I’m hesitant to give too much, and I won’t because of this bouncing. She said it was rare.

I’m listening to her and the advice of this group. I’m not knocking the vet, but he has bad teeth and a lot of bacteria in the urine and I know enough about diabetes in that these can cause massive spikes in the BG.

I hope I didn’t do the wrong thing by starting him back up again. I asked if I could wait to see if the antibiotics lowered BG on its own and she scared me with “You could do that. It’s risky. He could go into keytosis and cost you thousands, and it’s a holiday weekend.

I just hope I did the right thing.
 
Add ketone strips to your shopping list! Also honey, karo, or maple syrup.

Has Yoshi been in DKA before? The formula for DKA is not enough calories + not enough insulin + high BG. I would test Yoshi's ketones daily if numbers are high.

With Lantus, we do aim to test, feed, and shoot all within 15 minutes. Some owners shoot while kitty's head is still in the bowl. And PZI actually had more leeway in terms of shooting times.

Are you thinking of addressing Yoshi's dental issues?
 
No, never in DKA and never any keytones. I was putting off the dental things because he was in remission and I thought all the stress and etc would bring him out of it. And it’s so very expensive
 
That's good! I'm glad Yoshi hasn't had DKA before. Have you tested his BG again since the vet?

Unfortunately, not dealing with the dental might have been what set him back but certainly, having a dental is not a small thing. It has its own risks and expenses. When and if you think you're ready to have Yoshi's dental, a lot of people will be happy to help guide you.
 
Thank you so much.

He also has a bad UTI so that could’ve contributed as well. What bothers me is that the vet sees no correlation between high BG and infection.

I haven’t tested him yet. I plan to. The poor thing has been through so much today.

When typically is a good time to test on lantus after a dose to see if he drops too low? +6 or 9? I’m just guessing in looking at low readings from members

You guys are great and talking me off the ledge. Thank you so much
 
Testing at +1 and +2 usually helps us determine what the dose will do as that's the typical time of onset for most kitties (Ming's onset on Lantus was probably at +3). Then testing at +6 or anytime after that would be a good way to determine Yoshi's nadir.

Vary the times you test between each cycle until you complete the puzzle or picture.

With Lantus, we dose according to how low it brings our cats - unlike PZI which relies more on PS numbers. So that's why it's important to find the nadir. You might not see much action in the first couple of days until the depot fills like someone has already mentioned.

How long has it been since his shot? If you have time, I'd get your SS up to date. Let us know if you need help with that too.
 
She tested him at 3pm central, about 4 hours ago

Thank you for telling me about the importance of nadar. You are right, with prozinc it was all about the pre shot.
 
the vet wasn’t really a fan of home testing. She was like people come in here with all these spreadsheets and I’m like I have a spreadsheet, I’m one of those people (this is a different vet than the one I went to when he had it the first time. She was really overdosing him until I found this group). This one spent way more time w me but didn’t go into any of the nuances this group is so helpful in.

She told me if he tested 200 or below in pmps or 250 below amps, to skip the shot. She didn’t mention nadar.

You would be a blessing from the heavens above if you could help me with my spreadsheet. I can barely work in a Google doc or save something. I’m 42, but actually 105 years old.
 
Stressedcatmom said:
the vet wasn’t really a fan of home testing. She was like people come in here with all these spreadsheets and I’m like I have a spreadsheet, I’m one of those people (this is a different vet than the one I went to when he had it the first time. She was really overdosing him until I found this group). This one spent way more time w me but didn’t go into any of the nuances this group is so helpful in.

She told me if he tested 200 or below in pmps or 250 below amps, to skip the shot. She didn’t mention nadar.

You would be a blessing from the heavens above if you could help me with my spreadsheet. I can barely work in a Google doc or save something. I’m 42, but actually 105 years old.
Click to expand...

You may want to post that in your title - isn't there a tab at the bottom of your old SS that you've linked here that will allow you to 'right-click' and add the '2019' to it - that would be your new SS...you can just write in the date - until you get some help getting it all fixed up. This is a holiday weekend, so fewer people are on the forum right now (I believe)...although you never know when someone experience will pop in...

I'm going to be blunt here - your vet is WRONG...wrong about many things. I've dealt with really irresponsible vets who didn't want to hear a word about 'getting help from the internet' - so move on - don't argue - if you like this vet and want to stay - do your thing - say, uh huh, and I'll think about it...and then go home and listen to the folks here who have a thousand times more experience with feline diabetes than your vet could dream about having - because she's there to treat many kinds of animals for many kinds of problems and has very little training on feline diabetes. The collective knowledge of this group has saved the lives of many cats...

You are doing the right thing by posting here -daily - home test frequently - get to know what your cat's cycles are all about. Lantus is going to take a few days to get going - although you can see a drop on the first day - surprise! I did! So look at some of the other condos, the other cats SS's to see what's going on with them - it's very educational.

Read those stickies at the top of this forum. If you got him to remission once before, it's possible you can do it again...but it does take YOU taking the reigns and getting the things you'll need to take care of your kitty at home. Take your Lantus prescription, say thanks and get other care from your vet as needed - antibiotics for that UTI, dental care as you can afford it - both of those things are very stressful and can certainly cause numbers to go up...

Hang in there - you're among friends now. :bighug:
 
I'd try to get a test as soon as possible just to be safe.

Usually @Marje and Gracie deals with the SS but I can take a stab at it. But I believe the easiest way to do this is to duplicate your existing SS and just delete the values and change the dates.

But! I'm happy to do all of that for you. If you go to your SS, click File >> Share. Then change the option in the drop down menu to "Anyone with the link can edit" then I can go in and set up a new 2019 SS for you. Then copy and paste the link here. You can change that back to "Anyone with the link can view" once I'm done.


Screen Shot 2019-08-31 at 5.16.53 PM.png
 
By the way, are you switching to human meter tonight or will you later? When you do switch to the human meter, your SS will need to be different again as the colours change at different values.
 
Crista & Ming said:
I'd try to get a test as soon as possible just to be safe.

Usually @Marje and Gracie deals with the SS but I can take a stab at it. But I believe the easiest way to do this is to duplicate your existing SS and just delete the values and change the dates.

But! I'm happy to do all of that for you. If you go to your SS, click File >> Share. Then change the option in the drop down menu to "Anyone with the link can edit" then I can go in and set up a new 2019 SS for you. Then copy and paste the link here. You can change that back to "Anyone with the link can view" once I'm done.


View attachment 47493
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Hmmm... I'm not comfortable with deleting old history [edit: OH, sorry, I just saw that you said "duplicate" first, so you are basically doing just what I am sayying-- sorry for the error!], usually we just add a new tab for different years, etc. In this case, I think I'd just make a whole new spreadsheet and have two links in the signature-- one to the old ProZinc spreadsheet, and one to the new Lantus one. Especially if Yoshi's caregiver ends up switching from the AlphaTrak to a human meter, which is already going to be confusing.
 
Nan & Amber said:
Hmmm... I'm not comfortable with deleting old history, usually we just add a new tab for different years, etc. In this case, I think I'd just make a whole new spreadsheet and have two links in the signature-- one to the old ProZinc spreadsheet, and one to the new Lantus one. Especially if Yoshi's caregiver ends up switching from the AlphaTrak to a human meter, which is already going to be confusing.
Click to expand...

Nope! I'm not going to delete the history! Just duplicating the sheet and deleting the old data that was copied. The old stuff will be in another tab.

I did the same with my sheet. I have a tab with PZI info and last year's.
 
Sue and Luci said:
You may want to post that in your title - isn't there a tab at the bottom of your old SS that you've linked here that will allow you to 'right-click' and add the '2019' to it - that would be your new SS...you can just write in the date - until you get some help getting it all fixed up. This is a holiday weekend, so fewer people are on the forum right now (I believe)...although you never know when someone experience will pop in...

I'm going to be blunt here - your vet is WRONG...wrong about many things. I've dealt with really irresponsible vets who didn't want to hear a word about 'getting help from the internet' - so move on - don't argue - if you like this vet and want to stay - do your thing - say, uh huh, and I'll think about it...and then go home and listen to the folks here who have a thousand times more experience with feline diabetes than your vet could dream about having - because she's there to treat many kinds of animals for many kinds of problems and has very little training on feline diabetes. The collective knowledge of this group has saved the lives of many cats...

You are doing the right thing by posting here -daily - home test frequently - get to know what your cat's cycles are all about. Lantus is going to take a few days to get going - although you can see a drop on the first day - surprise! I did! So look at some of the other condos, the other cats SS's to see what's going on with them - it's very educational.

Read those stickies at the top of this forum. If you got him to remission once before, it's possible you can do it again...but it does take YOU taking the reigns and getting the things you'll need to take care of your kitty at home. Take your Lantus prescription, say thanks and get other care from your vet as needed - antibiotics for that UTI, dental care as you can afford it - both of those things are very stressful and can certainly cause numbers to go up...

Hang in there - you're among friends now. :bighug:
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I needed to hear that. You are making me cry in a good way.

I didn’t mean to suggest anyone help w spreadsheet, someone offered and I may not have replied correctly. Im just responding to everyone as a general reply which I will be mindful of
 
Just to add a comment on the SS - when you look at the bottom left corner of your SS, do you see a + sign? If so, that's where you can add a new tab...
 
Crista & Ming said:
By the way, are you switching to human meter tonight or will you later? When you do switch to the human meter, your SS will need to be different again as the colours change at different values.
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I’m not changing to a human meter tonight. I spent 900 at the vet today and I still have the alpha track and probably 10,000 test strips. I will then once I get paid
 
Stressedcatmom said:
You are making me cry in a good way.
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I didn't mean to make you cry:oops:... but you need to be confident that you can get far better help and advice from this group than your vet...It's just such a common theme - I hear/see too many comments about vets who provide poor to no information to their cat parents! It's appalling - but they just do NOT KNOW! You can't blame them for having limited information - it's unfortunate but the vets are responsible for more cat hypo events than the cat parents ever! They hand their cat parents a prescription for insulin - no mention of testing in most cases - or tell them NOT to test - god forbid! And the typical advice is to give 2 u twice a day - no testing - seriously! If you had a diabetic child would you give them insulin without testing first? Would you feed them high carb junk food all day?

Often I hear that vets give Rx for insulin, and try to sell that junky expensive DM food - it's full of carbs and very bad for diabetic kitties...and I was one of those people who bought it! My cat hated it...thankfully - and when I saw how many carbs it had in it - well, she had better sense than I did - at least she turned her nose up at it! Fancy Feast all the way - now we're on some others...but we'll go into that another time.

Feel better...you're in the right place!:cat::cat:
 
Sue and Luci said:
I didn't mean to make you cry:oops:... but you need to be confident that you can get far better help and advice from this group than your vet...It's just such a common theme - I hear/see too many comments about vets who provide poor to no information to their cat parents! It's appalling - but they just do NOT KNOW! You can't blame them for having limited information - it's unfortunate but the vets are responsible for more cat hypo events than the cat parents ever! They hand their cat parents a prescription for insulin - no mention of testing in most cases - or tell them NOT to test - god forbid! And the typical advice is to give 2 u twice a day - no testing - seriously! If you had a diabetic child would you give them insulin without testing first? Would you feed them high carb junk food all day?

Often I hear that vets give Rx for insulin, and try to sell that junky expensive DM food - it's full of carbs and very bad for diabetic kitties...and I was one of those people who bought it! My cat hated it...thankfully - and when I saw how many carbs it had in it - well, she had better sense than I did - at least she turned her nose up at it! Fancy Feast all the way - now we're on some others...but we'll go into that another time.

Feel better...you're in the right place!:cat::cat:
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It was a good cry! Thank you so much!
 
I can’t test him right now he’s completely insane. He’s growling and meowing and extra extra. He went through a lot today. I tried to get blood really hard
 
Do you mind copying and pasting the link from your SS. It's probably a new link now that it can be edited.

Stressedcatmom said:
I can’t test him right now he’s completely insane. He’s growling and meowing and extra extra. He went through a lot today. I tried to get blood really hard
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Oh no :( Give him a break but see if you can entice him with treats and pets.

Was he difficult to test in the past?

Also wow 10,000 strips!! That's a lot!
 
Stressedcatmom said:
I’m exaggerating w the strips. I have a lot. Easy to test usually. He is just not having any of it
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Haha! I feel like I never have enough strips. Glad he's usually easy. It's understandable why he's grumpy.

Stressedcatmom said:
We had a big day I just want to test him tomo
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Is he getting another shot of insulin tonight. I was assuming he got his shot of insulin in the AM. Or did the vet give insulin at a weird time? What time zone are you?
 
She gave it at a weird time. 3pm central. I’m going to wake up and test/dose at 7am. He just ate and seems fine. I fell asleep
 
Good Morning! It sounds like you both had a rough day yesterday! I hope you get your SS worked out...I know it can be a challenge...

For your next post - today - please start it like this:

9/1 Yoshi AMPS ### - if you have a question or brief comment - you can write it there.

Please copy/paste the url from yesterday's post (the one we're on now) into the first line of your new post so everyone will be able to look back at the history.

Nice signature! You're on your way....sorry he's out of remission - 2nd cat yesterday to arrive after being at the Falls for a while :(

Hopefully it won't take him long to figure out how to find his way back!
 
Marje is on vacation. @Chris & China (GA) should be able to help with the spreadsheet.

First things first -- take a deep breath! You can do this.

Yoshi's SS (spreadsheet) from 2017 is lovely. And yes, cat's and and do go into remission a second time. I will urge you that this time around, please get at least one test (e.g., a "before bed test") during the PM cycle.

You have two things to be attentive to. If Yoshi has a UTI and dental issues, both of these are infections/inflammations and are notorious for throwing cats out of remission. I'm presuming the vet gave you antibiotics for the UTI. If that was the only thing happening, it's likely that the ABs would drop Yoshi's numbers. The need for a dental will, however, be an issue until you get his teeth cleaned. The ABs may help to lower the numbers but if you stop the ABs, it's likely that numbers may start rising again.

When you go to post today, please start a new thread. We generally use a convention for each new post:
  • Date ---- Kitty's name ---- AMPS # ..........PMPS #
You fill in the +time# as you test by editing the subject line in your first post in the daily thread.

Please let us know if you have questions!!
 
Sienne and Gabby (GA) said:
Marje is on vacation. @Chris & China (GA) should be able to help with the spreadsheet.

First things first -- take a deep breath! You can do this.

Yoshi's SS (spreadsheet) from 2017 is lovely. And yes, cat's and and do go into remission a second time. I will urge you that this time around, please get at least one test (e.g., a "before bed test") during the PM cycle.

You have two things to be attentive to. If Yoshi has a UTI and dental issues, both of these are infections/inflammations and are notorious for throwing cats out of remission. I'm presuming the vet gave you antibiotics for the UTI. If that was the only thing happening, it's likely that the ABs would drop Yoshi's numbers. The need for a dental will, however, be an issue until you get his teeth cleaned. The ABs may help to lower the numbers but if you stop the ABs, it's likely that numbers may start rising again.

When you go to post today, please start a new thread. We generally use a convention for each new post:
  • Date ---- Kitty's name ---- AMPS # ..........PMPS #
You fill in the +time# as you test by editing the subject line in your first post in the daily thread.

Please let us know if you have questions!!
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She gave him a broad spectrum antibiodic shot that lasts in their system for two weeks.

Christa and Ming I think are working on my spreadsheet. I feel bad because it's a holiday weekend.

I contacted my mom's vet in the suburbs and cleaning is much cheaper (my vet quoted thousands of dollars).

I am working on my new post now.
 
Stressedcatmom said:
(my vet quoted thousands of dollars).
Click to expand...

WOW! My vet charges $250 for a simple cleaning!
Just so you know. A Relion meter at Walmart costs $9 & 100 strips are under $20 . You might want to get one as a spare meter? I've been using mine for 18 months without any problems.

Best of Luck with your kitty. Hope you both can relax & get some rest tonight.

upload_2019-9-1_19-19-2.jpeg
 
JoyBee&Ravan said:
WOW! My vet charges $250 for a simple cleaning!
Just so you know. A Relion meter at Walmart costs $9 & 100 strips are under $20 . You might want to get one as a spare meter? I've been using mine for 18 months without any problems.

Best of Luck with your kitty. Hope you both can relax & get some rest tonight.

View attachment 47524
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Oh wow. Thank you for that info about the meter. I have so many test strips for my alpha track. I’m not sure what to do. I still don’t get the difference. My brain is mush.
 
It's probably easier to just start a new spreadsheet especially since he's been in remission for 2 years.

The data from 2 years ago won't mean anything now.

I'd be happy to do it for you...just send me a PM so I can get some info!!
 
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