8/20 Mačka has an infection

Penelope and Mačka

Member Since 2019
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...-3-341-4-283-6-462-8-hi-pmps-hi-3-536.218265/

Yesterday, Macka was not feeling too good and did not have much appetite. This morning, his face was swollen (nose and left eye). I took him immediately to the vet and it turns out he had an abscess above the eye, on the skull, from a probable fight with our other cat. I remember seeing a little crust that fell off two days ago, but at the time there was nothing to be alarmed of.

I had to drain the abscess (so much liquid!) just now, and have to do it 3 times/day for a few days. He's on 0.1ml Buprenorphine as needed and Clavamox (10 days). I guess it will be alright, but... poor Macka :'( They even shaved him where the wound is, so we can see it better.

Could the infection explain the recent high numbers and the ineffective increase? What if it's the case? When should I reduce his insulin dose then? I want him to stay safe.

In addition, he's going to see his internist in 2 days and it's more likely she will put him on Levemir. I continued reading many good things about Levemir, and I thought that for an anxious person like me who hates rollercoasters and can't sleep because too worried, Levemir would cause less dives and less surprises?
 
Yes, infection and inflammation can cause insulin resistance. I am glad you found that abscess and are getting it treated. Poor Macka. I wouldn’t lower the dose on spec, but rather let the BG numbers guide you. If you don’t see green tonight, you would increase tomorrow according to TR.

It’s ECID on Levemir, though most people find their cats are flatter, and on less of a roller coaster. No guarantees of course.
 
Definitely an infection could be affecting Macka's BG levels, for insulin dosing just keep following the protocols, his tests will show you if you need to increase or decrease :)

I've also heard positive things about Levemir, if you switch let us know how it goes :)

ETA: Oh! I dittoed what Wendy said :oops::smuggrin:
 
Yes, infection and inflammation can cause insulin resistance. I am glad you found that abscess and are getting it treated. Poor Macka. I wouldn’t lower the dose on spec, but rather let the BG numbers guide you. If you don’t see green tonight, you would increase tomorrow according to TR.
his tests will show you if you need to increase or decrease
Thanks! Yes but... what if the numbers do dive really low? Would any improvement in numbers be brutal? What can I expect?

I don't know if I'm going to increase tomorrow, just because if we change him to Levemir in 2 days, we'll have to start again from a lower dose anyway (70%?), right?
 
He won’t dive really low, his numbers are already higher than they should be. The change will be more gradual.

It is fine to wait to increase until you find out if you will switch to Levemir. Yes, the Lev dose would be 70% of the Lantus dose to start. H may have to go back up in dose, but some cats show a marked reaction to an insulin switch, so the reduced dose is for safety.
 
Poor Macka! Sorry you are dealing with another layer, Penelope. I hope the infection clears up soon.
Thank you, it's not funny here... he does not want to eat anything, only the Dr Elsey's dry food (4% carbs). I don't want him to get the habit, but right now, that's all he will accept :( He's all swollen, shaved on the face and down. It makes me really sad.
 
Penelope,
Sending you and Macka good wishes! I'm glad you found the abscess, and got help. Sometimes it seems we can't get ahead. Keep trying. Give your boy a kiss from me:kiss:
Thank you! I give him plenty of kisses but he's a grumpy boy when he's not feeling good. I think I found the abscess in time, since I scrutinize him non-stop. But now I feel guilty that I should have disinfected that wound when I saw it a week or so ago. I was so obnubilated by the diabetes that I did not react and thought, oh, a cat scratch, no biggie. I should have known better. He's on Clavamox now, first take tonight, let's hope he gets already better by tomorrow.

Should I give him some Cerenia since he's being so finicky?

I poured myself some New Zealand Malborough sauvignon blanc for the occasion. Have not had wine in 2 months. Hubby is out and I just need a break :smuggrin:
 
Oh! Fun fact: when Macka was at the vet, he jumped, yes jumped, from the shelf by the aquarium to the armchair (see pic). I could not believe it!
Is it the Zobaline magic???? I hadn't seen him jump since he arrived here 2 months ago.
 

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Poor Macka!!! You did your best. Don’t beat yourself up for not cleaning the wound or not bringing him in sooner. You can never tell with these things and I’m sure in most cases, antibiotics would’ve been needed whether you cleaned it early or not.

You can dose buprenophine up to every 8 hours if he’s not on that schedule already. Ask your vet first of course.

I think it’s more about pain management at this point. Giving cerenia may help appetite if you suspect nausea. And if it’s dry food that he’s eating, then unfortunately that’s what’s best right now seeing as he is DKA prone and has high BSL.

Have you read that thread about how to entice cats to eat? I’ll go find it for you when I have a moment.

As for diving - the best way to prepare yourself for it is to experience it and gather data. And of course, knowing that you can potentially slow dives with different foods with different carb contents.

Ming is on Lev. He still dives. But ECID. Right now, Macka has an infection and his BGs are probably high because of it. Like others have said, let the numbers guide you.
 
I apologize to the group for bumping up this old thread, but I don't see a newer one for Macka.
Since we are a peer-reviewed message board I am responding to Penelope's PM request for advice and guidance on the board, where it is subject to peer review.

Current state of affairs per Penelope's PM and Macka's spreadsheet:
  • Began tapering steroids, result = spasms?
  • Internist suggested reducing dose to 2u bid for a week and then possibly switching to Levemir
  • Penelope reduced to 2.5u from 2.75u
  • Currently, no ketones
  • Appetite is down
  • Infection present, abscess on head, receiving ab (clavamox)
  • Diarrhea, receiving probiotics
  • Insufficient insulin (evidenced by high numbers)
I regret not staying at 1.75 for more time and not using a human meter, because after I increased to 2u, the improvement did not follow: did he start to bounce too much and it created a vicious cycle?
Don't worry about it. That was then and this is now. Let it go because we go on from here.
I have the feeling that with a human meter, people on the forum react differently to numbers and have different opinions.
Right now, it doesn't matter. Macka's numbers are much too high, no matter which meter is used to measure blood glucose.
Since he has been having this infection, probably for 15 days or so, she thinks it might have generated some insulin resistance. So, she asked to go back from 2.75 to 2 at once.
I also think there may be some insulin resistance/glucose toxicity. What your vet and I don't agree on is what to do about it. I fail to see how you can cause a break through by reducing the dose. It doesn't make sense. It takes more insulin/a higher dose to break through any insulin resistance/glucose toxicity, whatever you want to call it.
She said that once the infection clears up, he will dive hard and be overdosed. She scared the hell out of me.
It's possible, but I don't think it will be that dramatic. However, no need to fear. You have a meter. You're testing. And last, but not least, you are in control. You have all the tools to be in control as well as a forum and two vets for support.
She wants me to stay at 2u for a week and then do a curve. Then maybe consider changing to Levemir although she prefers Prozinc, but I said Levemir please! I went home, and panicked for the rest of the day, and wondered what's the best move: What if he sinks from the infection clearing and I can't control it because he does not eat much? Am I going to kill him if I don't decrease the dose as promptly asked?
Honestly, if I were in your shoes I'd be more concerned about inviting ketones, followed by DKA to develop and walk right in the door... considering this is a cat with a recent history of DKA AND has all the ingredients of DKA currently in place.

The basic recipe for developing DKA = an insufficient supply of insulin + inappetance + infection OR other systemic stresses.

The stage is set. All the ingredients of DKA are present.
What if he sinks from the infection clearing and I can't control it because he does not eat much?
"IF"... and that's a BIG "if" you had trouble controlling a drop with karo syrup (the key is to stay ahead of the drop), you always have the option of taking Macka to a vet or an ER. They will then put him on a glucose drip to keep him safe. Skim through Alex's spreadsheets. You can see I ran her as low as I possibly could (depending on her health at the time) and never had to resort to putting her on a drip.
She's the vet, she must know what's right. But what if she does not understand diabetes/Lantus and gives me the wrong advice?
We can "what if" everything and anything all day and all night. Either you have confidence in your vet or not. If not, you need to find a new vet.
After all, I did not have the heart to listen to her and could only decrease to 2.5. I fear DKA too.
I do, too. Frankly, I fear DKA more than I do low numbers because if I monitor carefully (in the case of low numbers), I have the tools to keep my cat safe.
It’s been 6 cycles and honestly, he had a beginning of a curve yesterday (and was feeling amazing, didn’t last), but for the rest, he’s still extremely high and not diving (yet).
That's a start, but yes, Macka has a way to go. He's still MUCH too high.
Is Macka stuck in glucose toxicity or bouncing and needs more insulin? But what about the curve we saw yesterday afternoon? Should we stay at the dose of 2.5 for a while and see if it gets better?
  • Yes, Macka requires more insulin.
  • The curve was nice, but even at the lowest hour he remained above renal threshold.
  • IMHO, I would not hold this dose any longer than necessary. I'd follow the guidelines in the TR Protocol and raise the dose accordingly.
The vet does not want me to test at home, of course, and does not know the TR protocol. She said I was increasing too fast and should stick to a dose for a week. I sent her a few articles over the weekend.
I hope one of the articles you sent was the TR Protocol. :)
My baby is weak all the time, I just want him out of these numbers. If I increase the dose, I do the opposite of what she asked me. I don’t think we have a partnership here if I question everything she says. And I also want my Levemir prescription… If I listen to her, is Macka at risk of anything serious going back to 2u like he was two weeks ago? At the time it looked like a high dose. What are the consequences of decreasing cold turkey like this?
Penelope, for your own sanity, make a decision and follow through with it. Stop second guessing yourself. Deal with whatever ramifications come with the decision you've made.

Is Macka at serious risk if the dose is reduced? In my opinion and as mentioned above, the ingredients for developing ketones are in place. That does put him at a higher risk for DKA. Reducing the dose only serves to magnify the already inadequate supply of insulin.
On top of it, I asked the vet if we could wean him off the steroids, which could have contributed to the higher numbers. He never had any IBD symptoms, just intestine thickening. She said to cut the dose in half for 10 days. When I researched online, I read that Budosenide should be weaned off over 8 weeks (with a progressive dosage decrease). Is my vet crazy? I will be conservative and wean him off very slowly, and not listen to her.
I don't know if your vet is crazy. Nor do I know if weaning him off steroids slowly is the answer for Macka. I've always relied on my vet for that kind of advice.
And in addition to all this stress, we leave town for 5 days in 2 weeks, with a home sitter (professional pet sitter thank heavens). But I can’t make too many changes to Macka’s treatment and leave her with it.
Understood.

Most caregivers will reduce the insulin dose while away because many/most kitties go off their food while their human is gone. Also, some pet sitters do not test.
I honestly don't know what to do. I was looking at this cat’s SS (Simba http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/members/darwin-h.25718/) and wondered if there's hope for my baby to heal.
There's no way of knowing if any kitty has the ability to heal and go off the juice. Most hold out hope and treat accordingly.


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Given all the circumstances, my best advice to you is to make a choice between vet and forum advice... and run with it. In this case, I have to say forum advice makes the most sense to me and did for my cat.

If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't focus on the method (TR or SLGS), but I would focus on getting enough insulin into Macka to cause a break through as well as help keep ketones at bay. I'm pretty sure it'll take more than one dose increase to get there. However, don't worry about the number of increases. Gradually give Macka however much insulin he needs to bring his numbers down.

My thoughts. Your cat. Your decision.


I'll check back later tonight in case you have questions. Gotta run.
Have a good day!
 
Penelope. Jill has given you excellent advice to read and think about. I agree with everything she has said.

I think going back to SLGS and reducing the insulin dose is the wrong decision. As Jill said, the recipe for DKA is all there and by reducing the dose, you are making it easier for ketones to develop.

Insulin resistance needs more insulin, not less. I have to question how much your vet knows about FD.
Macka needs to get down into lower numbers and the only way you are going to do that is increase the dose and keep increasing until you see lower numbers.

I was in your position when Sheba fell out of remission after 2 1/2 years and her numbers were high and I couldn’t get them down and I was concerned about keeping increasing. I spoke to Rhett Marshall, an Australian vet who is a world renowned authority on FD. He spoke to me for 20 minutes on the phone and he said if I was testing as often as I was, I was keeping Sheba safe, and that I should just keep increasing the dose until I got Sheba into good numbers. He gave me the confidence to keep going and the relief to know I was on the right track.

You need to experience the lower numbers Penelope, to find they are not to be feared but embraced.
:bighug:
 
Thank you @Jill & Alex (GA) for your impressive feedback.

You're right, for my own sanity, I have to choose my camp. I'm losing my mind right now. Until now, I did not question the internist vet, because she was recommended to me by my regular vet and is respected in town. When I asked her about a risk of DKA, she told me he wasn't at risk like when he had a UTI + pancreatitis so I needn't worry. But you all know me by now, I am a huge worrier. So I just could not listen to her and decrease so much (after all we talked about on this forum). When her staff calls me tomorrow to talk about the emails I wrote over the weekend, I will try to tell them nicely that I would like to keep following the TR protocol (yes, I sent them some Romp and Rand articles, the link to the dosing page etc :p, I hope they will take a look at them).
I have the impression that this vet does not aim for any remission, but rather to regulate cats around 200s. Which is probably why she does not feel the need for caregivers to monitor at home.

I've been waiting for the dose breakthrough! Macka is a funny guy, he'll throw a nice curve, then bounce forever, then stay high and flat and then needs more insulin. I don't understand the mechanism behind his body always needing more insulin.

My biggest fear is missing a hypo episode. Plus, I don't have enough experience to anticipate accordingly. He makes such dives that I fear he would hypo from a 500 in 2 hours, but maybe it's just my anxiety talking and that is improbable. When numbers are very low, how long does it take to go from very low to a seizure? How much room do we have to react? I'm going to have to work again very soon and leave him home alone, it terrorizes me.
I have hopes that Levemir might give flatter values and play less with my heart and sanity because more predictable. You switched to Levemir after Lantus, would you say that it is the case?

Another question: bouncing cats, are they more protected from a hypo because of their panicky liver that will always intervene before anything bad happens?

Interestingly, his PMPS was way lower the usual aka 308 (new thread for that). Let's see how he behaves tonight and tomorrow morning.

(I am still far from being at peace with the FD journey. I feel like I'm falling deeper into a state of depression and people around me worry. I cry a lot, I have anxiety attacks, and now my immune system is weakening=big mess. I need to find balance and peace, and I just don't know how. The more I increase, the more I will panic about the outcome. Sleeping well would help I suppose, but it's a thing of the past. This forum, and the beautiful people on it, of course offer a valuable support, and I am so glad it exists. Maybe once I see Macka happier and healthier that will put things in perspective?)

Again, thank you for your help, so much. And thank you all for your lovely support and friendship.
Have a great night
 
When her staff calls me tomorrow to talk about the emails I wrote over the weekend, I will try to tell them nicely that I would like to keep following the TR protocol (yes, I sent them some Romp and Rand articles, the link to the dosing page etc,:p I hope they will take a look at them).
As time goes by, I think you'll be glad you did.
I have the impression that this vet does not aim for any remission, but rather to regulate cats around 200s. Which is probably why she does not feel the need for caregivers to monitor at home.
I'm not surprised. Actually, running cats in the 200s as the goal is more common than not. The reason is many people, for one reason or another, cannot or simply do not have the time to do better for their diabetic cats. There's no judgement from me.

I've often thought back to the years when I was a single mom with 3 kids of my own, temporarily raising 2 of my sister's kids, with 3 dogs and 2 cats, working a full-time job, AND getting my Master's degree all at the same time. There's simply no way I could have spent the time I did on Alex back then. Running Alex in the 200s and hoping for the best would have been all I could manage. It happens.

Some just aren't interested in putting the extra effort into their pets. Some can't for legitimate reasons. No judgement. Again, to each his own. Deciding where you fit in all this is a personal decision for you to make. It may be that running Macka in the 200s is right for you. I don't know. It's not for me to say.
I've been waiting for the dose breakthrough! Macka is a funny guy, he'll throw a nice curve, then bounce forever, then stay high and flat and then needs more insulin. I don't understand the mechanism behind his body always needing more insulin.
What you're seeing is pretty normal. You've been treating Macka for months and have yet to come close to an optimal dose. Simply put, he needs more insulin before you'll ever see any break through. He's just not there yet, but he will be. The TR Protocol will get you there if you stick with it.
My biggest fear is missing a hypo episode. Plus, I don't have enough experience to anticipate accordingly. He makes such dives that I fear he would hypo from a 500 in 2 hours, but maybe it's just my anxiety talking and that is improbable.
When Macka throws you a lower preshot number or the +2 is the same or lower than the preshot number, hop on the forum for help. Someone will keep you company as well as offer guidance. You don't have to go through it alone. It's certainly possible you're worrying unnecessarily. Someone will say so if you ask. They might even go as far as tell you to go to bed and get some sleep. Believe them. There will be plenty of times when you'll have to stay up to steer the curve and/or intervene with high carb food to keep him from dropping too low.

I strongly recommend studying this document: Tight Regulation: Becoming Data Ready to Shoot / Handle Lower Pre-shot Numbers.

If you don't have a timed feeder for Macka, get one. Knowing that he has food available if he drops a little lower should ease your mind.
When numbers are very low, how long does it take to go from very low to a seizure? How much room do we have to react? I'm going to have to work again very soon and leave him home alone, it terrorizes me.
I won't lie. Kitties can go from low to seizure in the blink of an eye. HOWEVER, since we're testing we can intervene before that happens. I've been here over 13 years and I've yet to see a kitty go into seizures whose caregiver is testing and following the TR Protocol... and it's an aggressive dosing method!

I also encourage you to become very familiar with this document: Don't Panic! or How to Handle Low Numbers. Learn it like the back of your hand.
I have hopes that Levemir might give flatter values and play less with my heart and sanity because more predictable. You switched to Levemir after Lantus, would you say that it is the case?
Levemir does offer flatter cycles for some kitties, not all. The only way to know for sure is to try it. However, Levemir is not a miracle answer. The average caregiver will pay their dues with Levemir, just as they did with Lantus. In other words, one still has to put the time in to learn kitty's response to the combination of food and insulin after switching to Levemir. Lev cycles won't flatten out until you get close to an optimal dose, just as with Lantus.

As for my own experience switching from Lantus to Levemir... it doesn't apply to your circumstances. Alex had been in remission for almost 3 years when a simple case of gingivitis put her back on the juice. I tried Levemir simply for the experience. Although, I do prefer Levemir and wish more cats were started on it when they get diabetes. The overall remission rate is only 3% less than Lantus... negligible at best.
Another question: bouncing cats, are they more protected from a hypo because of their panicky liver that will always intervene before anything bad happens?
No, I can't say that. However, many years ago we had a cat here that had undergone a very severe vet-induced hypo. Kitty miraculously survived, but rarely, if ever bounced again after that. Because that natural protection was damaged or perhaps gone, we didn't encourage the caregivers to allow kitty to drop into low numbers. It wasn't worth taking any chances. It's one of the reasons I sometimes get irritated when I hear caregivers whine about bounces. Thank g_d your cat bounces! It's exactly as it should be. If kitty didn't bounce, I'd be terribly worried. I only wish some weren't so darn good at it!
Interestingly, his PMPS was way lower the usual aka 308 (new thread for that). Let's see how he behaves tonight and tomorrow morning.
I'm guessing he'll bounce from yesterdays drop into yellow, but let's see how it goes. Kitties just love to make liars out of humans when they attempt to predict the future! :p
(I am still far from being at peace with the FD journey. I feel like I'm falling deeper into a state of depression and people around me worry. I cry a lot, I have anxiety attacks, and now my immune system is weakening=big mess. I need to find balance and peace, and I just don't know how. The more I increase, the more I will panic about the outcome. Sleeping well would help I suppose, but it's a thing of the past. This forum, and the beautiful people on it, of course offer a valuable support, and I am so glad it exists. Maybe once I see Macka happier and healthier that will put things in perspective?)
One thing dealing with feline diabetes has taught me is looking for and finding a reason for everything that happens is an exercise in futility. When I began to go with the flow instead of questioning everything (for which I would never find answers) is when I was able to stop banging my head against the wall and dry my tears. I was able to relax and begin treating the illness as "just something my cat had" instead of feline diabetes becoming the sole focus in my life. Sure I worked things around Alex and I did miss some social events, but they were choices.

A word of advice... sleep whenever you get the chance. I needed sleep... to the point that there were times when I felt like I hit a brick wall and couldn't function. I didn't do it often and obviously not when worried about ketones, but there were times when I actually skipped a shot for no other reason than I needed the sleep. Hell didn't freeze over and Alex was no worse for wear. We all survived.
Again, thank you for your help, so much. And thank you all for your lovely support and friendship.
You're welcome. :)




While I'm thinking of it...
A word of caution/warning: I would wait to switch to Levemir until Macka's infection is gone and he has healed. The reason being when one switches from Lantus to Levemir the dose is usually reduced to 70% of the last Lantus dose. We don't want to reduce the insulin dose when infection is present for fear of ketones developing.
 
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