Reading that make no sense

[Siggi H]

Hello, we have been on a roller-coaster for about a month after Obi, 6 years in Sep, was diagnosed with diabetes & kidney disease. Our biggest challenge is to figure out food and stabilize him with Insulin shots now. We are in the second week and nowhere close where results should be.
We are at 2 units now, twice a day, with a 0.5ml syringe.
Morning reading are around 14 - 16....afternoon reading are between 17 - 20 and evening readings are in the 16. He gets his shots at 7:30am and 7:30pm. To us it actually seems like after raising from 1.5units to 2 units it has gone up a little, does that make any sense?!
He is still drinking a lot, hence peeing a lot.
My feeling is that it might be the food partially, as we are doing a mix of home-cooked and Renal diet. Its a challenge to get any special ready made food here as we are in Nairobi, Kenya.
I realize I'm all over the place with my post, everything is still so new and at times very frustrating....please bare with me. Has anybody experience this? Any suggestion on food highly appreciated for kiddie that has both health issues...
We were told that his kidney results are not that bad yet, and that we need to focus on getting his insulin right. But nobody can really tell us how to handle his diet.
So, any help, input greatly appreciated! Thank you!

 

[Idjit's mom]

Hi again Siggy, I just responded to your post in the Intro forum with suggestion of getting the spreadsheet set up and data entered so we can look at the trends and patterns of how the insulin is working for Obi.

I have learned from reading on this board, that sometimes too much insulin can look like not enough, I know it sounds strange, but it can be true. Also, bouncing can be involved here. Here is a description of what bouncing is:
A bounce happens when numbers drop quickly, drop a lot (like from 454 to 91) or drop low. Your cat's liver and pancreas
react to the change in numbers by dumping a stored form of glucose along with counter-regulatory hormones
into the bloodstream. These cause numbers to spike upward. It can take up to 3 days for the bounce to
clear -- although some cats turn the bounce around rather quickly. This is a normal, albeit annoying phenomenon.

Now, the numbers are in US, we don't do metric (yet). So in world numbers the 454 would be 25.2 and the 91 would be 5.

Having the insulin and testing data on the spreadsheet is going to give advising members the "picture" of how the insulin is working during each 12 hour cycles. And since we are spread all over the world, clock time doesn't really apply. The grid is set up to reflect the morning test result, the insulin dose, then the number of hours after that injection. Same with the evening test time, insulin dose and so on.

Food may be an influence here also, and we need to further explore exactly what Obi is eating. There are ways to determine what the carb levels are and that may mean contacting the manufacturers for that information. I don't know if it's possible to get nutritionally complete supplements to add to cooked or raw meats in Nairobi, but that might be an option for you (and us) to look into. Many of us use a home prepared diet for our kitties with renal issues, as well as diabetes.

I am inserting food information from your profile so other members can see what he's getting now.
And Food is an ongoing investigation on what he likes, is good for his glucose and will help his kidneys! A mix of home-cooked, Omena, boiled chicken with broth, Hills Prescription diet for Kidneys, Royal Canin / Renal

Don't give up hope, this is a dedicated and very supportive community and we will work hard to find answers and solutions.

 

[Idjit's mom]

Siggy, just read this thread from a member in South Africa regarding food for a diabetic with possible renal issues. You might find it interesting:
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/urinary-health-low-carb-food.216961/#post-2408774

I would also say that the canned Hill's Rx diet for Kidneys is too high in carbs for Obi. I just checked the food chart we have access to via www.catinfo.org ( a wonderful website by a vet about feline nutrition) FOOD CHART
and the carb values of the k/d varieties are all in the upper 20% very close to 30%. Dr. Pierson recommends using canned food brands with carbs under 10%. If he is eating dry food that also is way too high in carbs.

I don't know what Omena is, is this a canned wet food you buy there, or a nutritional supplement that you add to meat?

 

[Veronica & Babu-chiri]

Hi and Welcome!!

Don't worry about asking questions, ask all you want.

It would help to know his kidney values, usually giving renal diet is not recommended unless his kidney problem is very advanced, not only it is very high in carbs ( carbohydrates) but they are also low in protein and that could cause him to lose muscle mass

If his kidney problem isn't very advance what you will need is a diabetic friendly diet ( that would be 10% carbs or less ) that is kidney friendly ( for this what you need is for it to have 250 mg of phosphorus / 100 kcals or less) it does not have to be a prescription renal diet, actually as I mentioned it is not such a good idea unless his kidney problem is very advanced.

You could take a look at the list Lou mentioned in the previous post and see if you can find where you live the ones that meet this criteria if not maybe you could consider home cooking, in my case that is what I had to do since I couln't find one here in Mexico.

 

[Siggi H]

Thanks for the link, will check out!
My gut feeling was telling me that it was too high in cabs, but no other option currently so we tried....
He's having a little bit of the Hills dry and the little bag per day. Attaching photos.
Omena is a small tiny fish we get here and he loves that. It's dried, I wash it before giving him.

 

[Veronica & Babu-chiri]

Thanks for the link, will check out!
My gut feeling was telling me that it was too high in cabs, but no other option currently so we tried....
He's having a little bit of the Hills dry and the little bag per day. Attaching photos.
Omena is a small tiny fish we get here and he loves that. It's dried, I wash it before giving him.

Those are really not helping his diabetes since they are over 30% carbs and being dry they are not a good idea for his kidneys either, for both conditions the best is to give wet food (actually for any cat), specially with kidney problems you need to add as much water as possible to his food since cats with kidney problems tend to lose hydration.

I also suggest you check the phosphorus content on Omena but if he only gets it as a treat that may not be a problem

 

[Idjit's mom]

I just found out what the Omena is..how interesting! Yep, we do need to work on food solutions for Obi, that's going to really help his BG level out I think, as well as address taking care of his kidneys. Veronica also does a completely home prepared diet for her kitty, so this may be a way forward for you too, if you can find the proper nutritional supplements or a prepared mix.

So, essentially we are looking at the insulin you are using, as well as getting him on a better diet. All things that the members on this board are experienced with, and can help with. So, please tell Obi he has new friends from all over the world that are interested and invested with helping him (and his parents) out.

 

[Siggi H]

Thank you very much Veronica & Babu-chiri!
That's actually what we have been thinking, but got no backup here.
I think we might be the trail blazers for this kind of health issue, as even the vets are not sure and apparently had only one or the other. And diabetic is rare here...well, not many people take their cats to see the vet here ...
It seems we have to change his diet! Attaching kidney values here, hope ok?!

 

[Siggi H]

Aww...thank you so much Lou!! It means the world to us!
Almost in tears...slightly emotional right now ;-)
Will tell Obi for sure and he will be a so much happier self!

 

[Idjit's mom]

Siggi, no tears now, we all are paddling the same river and help each other out. Idjit is in remission because of the advice and support I got here, paws crossed for a very very long time.

I know I have thrown a lot of info at you, sorry..it's a steep learning curve at first. But I wanted to let you read a new document in the FAQs forum that is so helpful to new members. All good info in the Index, but just scroll down past the Index listing to:
NEW? HOW YOU CAN HELP US HELP YOU!

​

Also, I just noticed I have been spelling your name incorrectly when I post..apologies. Old brain burps occasionally.

 

[Veronica & Babu-chiri]

I think you can tell Obi not to worry too much about his kidneys either, at least for the time being, his kidney values are almost normal according to the IRIS (International Renal Interest Society ) he would be consider only at risk, not really with Chronic Kidney desease (CKD) since on both his test results his creatinine was under 150, BUN (Urea) was high only in one of the tests and BUN can be a bit high as a result of other issues, it can be because he was a bit dehydrated at the time ( cause his diabetes ) or because of a high protein diet, also if possible the next time he gets some blood test ask the vet to include his phosphorus levels controlling it is very important to help his kidneys and if they can get an urianalisis where you can see how his urine specific gravity is that would also give you an idea of how his kidneys are, for this since you are not worried about UTI (urinary tract infection) it can be free catch

Here's a link for a web page that has a lot of really really good information about CKD http://www.felinecrf.org/how_bad_is_it.htm in case you want to know a bit more about it

Given his numbers right now I think you should focus on his diabetes, with a low carb diet and if you can get one with low phosphorus that can't hurt but is probably not necesary at the moment

 

[Veronica & Babu-chiri]

And I can totally relate to your vet problem, I was my vet's first cat ever to use lantus or home test and the first one not to give renal prescription diets to a CKD cat, and the first to give Sq's (lots of firsts) so hang in there there are a lot of people here that can help you they helped me and saved Babu's life and my other non diabetic cats as well

 

[Tanya and Ducia]

If I am not mistaken elevated Hematocrit could mean slight dehydration.
And if so - add extra water to his meals.
Do not rely on his drinking habits alone, cat's normally have low thirst drive.
A Tablespoon of purified/ boiled and chilled water per meal is what many people here do.

 

[Siggi H]

I think you can tell Obi not to worry too much about his kidneys either, at least for the time being, his kidney values are almost normal according to the IRIS (International Renal Interest Society ) he would be consider only at risk, not really with Chronic Kidney desease (CKD) since on both his test results his creatinine was under 150, BUN (Urea) was high only in one of the tests and BUN can be a bit high as a result of other issues, it can be because he was a bit dehydrated at the time ( cause his diabetes ) or because of a high protein diet, also if possible the next time he gets some blood test ask the vet to include his phosphorus levels controlling it is very important to help his kidneys and if they can get an urianalisis where you can see how his urine specific gravity is that would also give you an idea of how his kidneys are, for this since you are not worried about UTI (urinary tract infection) it can be free catch

Here's a link for a web page that has a lot of really really good information about CKD http://www.felinecrf.org/how_bad_is_it.htm in case you want to know a bit more about it

Given his numbers right now I think you should focus on his diabetes, with a low carb diet and if you can get one with low phosphorus that can't hurt but is probably not necesary at the moment

Thank you so much Veronica!! I will FOR sure tell Obi and we are happy to hear that.....
looking at all the information I received from you and Lou ...tomorrow we will look at home-cooking things, might have some more questions for you about diet!!

In regards to the UTI....not sure I understand that fully but he does have UTI's and we are keeping a close eye on him for that.

Had to take Obi to the Vet again as his readings are just too weird, will work on filling in the chart to see what you all think. Vet thought we might not give him the shots right, but after he did we have the same results....so at least we are not feeling we are doing it wrong. Still...

Off to do more studying..thanks again!!

 

[Siggi H]

Siggi, no tears now, we all are paddling the same river and help each other out. Idjit is in remission because of the advice and support I got here, paws crossed for a very very long time.

I know I have thrown a lot of info at you, sorry..it's a steep learning curve at first. But I wanted to let you read a new document in the FAQs forum that is so helpful to new members. All good info in the Index, but just scroll down past the Index listing to:
NEW? HOW YOU CAN HELP US HELP YOU!

​

Also, I just noticed I have been spelling your name incorrectly when I post..apologies. Old brain burps occasionally.

Hello Lou, thank You!!
Yes, there is a lot of info and i'm emerging myself in it all and for sure will have more questions!

Working on figuring out the gluco chart and set this up asap and looking at the NEW?....
And no need to apologies!

 

[Veronica & Babu-chiri]

In regards to the UTI....not sure I understand that fully but he does have UTI's and we are keeping a close eye on him for that.

UTI is urinary tract infection, which means he has or had some infection in his bladder or urinary tract when this happens vets usually order an urianalisis, for that they sent a sample of pee to a lab to see how it looks and if it has viruses or bacteria in it they also analyse its characteristics like the color it has, if it has cristals in it (hopefully not), the amount of protein in it, the urine creatinine ratio and it's density all of which can give you an idea of how his kidneys are working.

There are two ways of getting the pee sample one is free catch which means you will have to actually collect some pee when he's doing his business or at the vets where the vet gets the sample from his bladder using a syringe, the free catch is less stressing for the cat but has some issues regarding some posible contamination in the way out, still some vets do not mind using this method taking this into consideration but some prefer the other for UTI, but if you are not really worried about infection and you just want to see it's density and other kidney parameters probably there's not really any issue on getting the sample free catch and it can give you good information