? Wet food -- Maybe it's about more than carbs?

[J.J. and Phoebe Squeak]

Hi,
I've been slowly switching Phoebe Squeak from DM (6% carb) to Weruva (0% carb). I could be wrong, but it seems the new food is making her BG rise. I'm testing my theory today by switching back to DM. Has anyone else had this experience? Maybe certain ingredients cause her BG to rise regardless of the carb content? I noticed the 0% carb food has potato starch -- no idea if that has anything to do with her higher BG lately.
Just wondering if anyone else had this problem with their kitty.
Thanks!

 

[Julie and Honey]

Potatoes themselves are high carb, would assume potato starch is adding sugar to the kitty? Wonder how it can be zero carb if it has starch?

Poked around and lo and behold, here is the answer..surprisingly potato starch should not raise sugar

https://www.dietdoctor.com/potato-starch-lchf-resistant-starch

 

[J.J. and Phoebe Squeak]

Potatoes themselves are high carb, would assume potato starch is adding sugar to the kitty. Wonder how it can be zero carb if it has starch?

I wonder the same thing. The Weruva website lists 0% carbs. Here are the ingredients for the "See ya Sooner" pouch from Weruva:
Ingredients
Chicken Broth, Chicken, Tuna, Natural Flavor, Potato Starch, Guar Gum, Calcium Lactate, Tricalcium Phosphate, Choline Chloride, Taurine, Zinc Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B1), Niacin Supplement (Vitamin B3), Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Supplement, Manganese Sulfate, Riboflavin Supplement (Vitamin B2), Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Ferrous Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Potassium Iodide, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (Source of Vitamin K)

 

[Tanya and Ducia]

Good question ,I am looking forward to reading replies.

Potato is high carbs and could potentially be responsible for the food spikes but I do not see why would Weruva label it at 0% carbs then?... Is this Weruva food listed in Dr. Pierson chart?

I've been slowly switching Phoebe Squeak from DM (6% carb) to Weruva (0% carb). I could be wrong, but it seems the new food is making her BG rise. I'm testing my theory today by switching back to DM. Has anyone else had this experience?[/QUOT
There are cats that do better - BG-wise - if they eat somewhat higher than zero carbs food regularly/constantly. Like 5%-9% carbs, still LC. I cannot explain why it works for some cats, I do not understand it entirely myself, but it looks like my cat is one such. I experimented (perhaps for not long enough) with feeding only no carbs (home made food) and got higher numbers, for the several cycles. As soon as I switched back to feeding some carbs the numbers improved. Perhaps you are dealing with the same and 6% carbs range is what needed? I hope to read some insights here!
@J.J. and Phoebe Squeak

 

[J.J. and Phoebe Squeak]

Good question ,I am looking forward to reading replies.

Potato is high carbs and could potentially be responsible for the food spikes but I do not see why would Weruva label it at 0% carbs then?... Is this Weruva food listed in Dr. Pierson chart?

No, it's not listed. I think this flavor came out after the chart was done. Maybe this is one of those "every cat is different" things.

 

[J.J. and Phoebe Squeak]

I just found this article...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5753635/
The summary seems to indicate that the type of carbs is important and fiber plays a role too:
Individualised diet therapy is recommended in diabetic cats. Although low-carbohydrate diets are a good option for some cats, good control and possibly remission can also be achieved with a higher carbohydrate diet designed for the management of diabetes. These higher carbohydrate diets do not contain simple sugars, have sources of complex carbohydrates that are less glycaemic and also include dietary fibre to help manage body weight and blood glucose response.

 

[MrWorfMen's Mom]

Have you seen this document? Some kitties do better with a bit more carbs so it could also be that Pheobe Squeak is one of the kitties who doesn't do as well on a 0% carb food.

 

[Sienne and Gabby (GA)]

The other factor to consider is that some cats do not do well immediately with change. Any shift in diet may be recognized as a source of stress and cause a rise in BG. Our kitties are creatures of habit and do not like having their routines messed with.

 

[J.J. and Phoebe Squeak]

Have you seen this document? Some kitties do better with a bit more carbs so it could also be that Pheobe Squeak is one of the kitties who doesn't do as well on a 0% carb food.

Thank you SO MUCH! I had not seen that info before.

 

[J.J. and Phoebe Squeak]

The other factor to consider is that some cats do not do well immediately with change. Any shift in diet may be recognized as a source of stress and cause a rise in BG. Our kitties are creatures of habit and do not like having their routines messed with.

Very good point! I hadn't thought of that. Thank you!

 

[Tomlin]

I just found this article...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5753635/
The summary seems to indicate that the type of carbs is important and fiber plays a role too:
Individualised diet therapy is recommended in diabetic cats. Although low-carbohydrate diets are a good option for some cats, good control and possibly remission can also be achieved with a higher carbohydrate diet designed for the management of diabetes. These higher carbohydrate diets do not contain simple sugars, have sources of complex carbohydrates that are less glycaemic and also include dietary fibre to help manage body weight and blood glucose response.

Yes, yes & yes!! Fiber actually helps with blood glucose--think oatmeal for example vs eating a slice of white bread! Glycemic index is key. Another concern with A LOT of the high protein/low or 0 carb foods is they are high as far as fat AND calories. Increased body fat (whether from too many calories &/or eating too much fat) actually increases/causes the development of insulin resistance. For my dry food I actually use an Rx one which is low calorie/low fat but not not super high in carbs....aka balanced. The other thing is the right carbs are important for digestion & help reduce constipation & diarrhea.

 

[Tomlin]

I forgot to mention, you can always seek out a consult from a Board Certified Veterinary Nutritionist. Some will do consults by phone or email with you &/or your vet. Most are at academic settings. Here is the link:

https://acvn.org/nutrition-consults/

 

[J.J. and Phoebe Squeak]

I forgot to mention, you can always seek out a consult from a Board Certified Veterinary Nutritionist. Some will do consults by phone or email with you &/or your vet. Most are at academic settings. Here is the link:

https://acvn.org/nutrition-consults/

Wow, so interesting. Thank you very much!

 

[Tomlin]

Wow, so interesting. Thank you very much!

You are welcome! I actually did one & it was VERY helpful! We are very focused on fitness & nutrition in our home, so I figured I would tap an expert for T's specific needs. I want to make sure his digestive health, kidney health, etc are all taken into consideration as well. I didn't want to trade one issue for another down the road.

Not sure about Phoebe, but my T actually only snacks on the dry once in awhile & he does chew each piece well, so he doesn't eat much of it & he's satisfied. I have another male who, if not for his puzzle feeder & slow feeder, would go head first & avoids chewing dry food! In that case, if it was a diabetic cat, it would be an issue if it was high calorie & higher carb. It wouldn't be the food that was the issue so much as how much of it he is eating.
Vacuum cleaner cat

 

[J.J. and Phoebe Squeak]

You are welcome! I actually did one & it was VERY helpful! We are very focused on fitness & nutrition in our home, so I figured I would tap an expert for T's specific needs. I want to make sure his digestive health, kidney health, etc are all taken into consideration as well. I didn't want to trade one issue for another down the road.

Not sure about Phoebe, but my T actually only snacks on the dry once in awhile & he does chew each piece well, so he doesn't eat much of it & he's satisfied. I have another male who, if not for his puzzle feeder & slow feeder, would go head first & avoids chewing dry food! In that case, if it was a diabetic cat, it would be an issue if it was high calorie & higher carb. It wouldn't be the food that was the issue so much as how much of it he is eating.
Vacuum cleaner cat

Very smart! So from your signature it looks like Mr. T is on a prescription diet from Royal Canin -- is that correct? What wet food is he eating?

 

[Tomlin]

Very smart! So from your signature it looks like Mr. T is on a prescription diet from Royal Canin -- is that correct? What wet food is he eating?

He is on Royal Canin Moderate Calorie Gastrointestinal wet food & Royal Canin weight management dry food. They now make a dry gastro but we made the decision to stick with the weight management because of the slightly lower fat & lower calories. With that being said, they also make a Glycobalance which has 6.8% max fiber vs 11.3% with the Wt Management, but the kcal increases from 244 to 390. So, you can see where you have to figure out what your specific cats needs are to determine which one is best.

Here are the direct comparisons between the 3 RC Diets:

Wt Management vs GlycoBalance vs GastroIntestinal (Moderate Calorie)

Protein=33%(min) vs. 44%(min) vs. 33% (min)
Fat= 8.0%(min) vs. 10%(min) vs. 11% (min)-15% (max)
Fiber= 11.3%(max) vs 6.8%(max) vs. 7.3%(max)
Kilocals ME/cup=244 vs 390 vs 313

 

[J.J. and Phoebe Squeak]

He is on Royal Canin Moderate Calorie Gastrointestinal wet food & Royal Canin weight management dry food. They now make a dry gastro but we made the decision to stick with the weight management because of the slightly lower fat & lower calories. With that being said, they also make a Glycobalance which has 6.8% max fiber vs 11.3% with the Wt Management, but the kcal increases from 244 to 390. So, you can see where you have to figure out what your specific cats needs are to determine which one is best.

Here are the direct comparisons between the 3 RC Diets:

Wt Management vs GlycoBalance vs GastroIntestinal (Moderate Calorie)

Protein=33%(min) vs. 44%(min) vs. 33% (min)
Fat= 8.0%(min) vs. 10%(min) vs. 11% (min)-15% (max)
Fiber= 11.3%(max) vs 6.8%(max) vs. 7.3%(max)
Kilocals ME/cup=244 vs 390 vs 313

Thank you very much!

 

[CandyH & Catcat]

just a side note -- I noticed that I was getting slightly higher BG values when I fed Friskies pate -- which includes rice
contrasted with Blue Wilderness (which includes potato) -- and 4Health (which has neither)
all three show about the same carb % on Dr Lisa's list

could be that indeed, potato, or potato starch, doesn't affect BG to the extent that rice does .. or there may be more rice in Friskies than potato in BW

ECID -- and cats seem to have a different set of Glycemic Index values than humans for that matter

 

[J.J. and Phoebe Squeak]

just a side note -- I noticed that I was getting slightly higher BG values when I fed Friskies pate -- which includes rice
contrasted with Blue Wilderness (which includes potato) -- and 4Health (which has neither)
all three show about the same carb % on Dr Lisa's list

could be that indeed, potato, or potato starch, doesn't affect BG to the extent that rice does .. or there may be more rice in Friskies than potato in BW

ECID -- and cats seem to have a different set of Glycemic Index values than humans for that matter

So interesting! I guess some experimenting is in order. Thanks very much!

 

[Tomlin]

Its not the cat or the human that has a different set of Glycemic Index/Load values. The food is what has the glycemic index #. This is a helpful explanation of Glycemic Index:

https://www.health.harvard.edu/dise...lycemic-index-and-glycemic-load-for-100-foods

Ultimately, so much of it comes down to balance, moderation, calories & ultimately nutrients. Again, looking at our body or a cats body a system. I would rather some carbs vs loaded with fat & calories & low fiber content. Also, keep in mind that its whats in the food that will effect how the fiber/carbs effect BG.

 

[CandyH & Catcat]

has anyone run the same experiments that they did with humans to derive the Glycemic Index, with cats? I would expect there might be differences since cat metabolism is quite different, and pancreas response probably is too

would make a great PhD thesis !

https://www.gisymbol.com/how-is-gi-measured/

 

[Tomlin]

has anyone run the same experiments that they did with humans to derive the Glycemic Index, with cats? I would expect there might be differences since cat metabolism is quite different, and pancreas response probably is too

would make a great PhD thesis !

https://www.gisymbol.com/how-is-gi-measured/

Mayo clinic actually refutes using glycemic index so I'm not sure who this society is, but there were a lot of fad diets based on it for awhile

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/diabetes/expert-answers/diabetes/faq-20058466
https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-...ing/in-depth/glycemic-index-diet/art-20048478

I highly recommend the ACVN.org for info . They have been helpful!

 

[CandyH & Catcat]

true, and as we all know, ECID -- I've read a lot about carbohydrates and nutrition since I've dealt with a tendency towards hypoglycemia all my life, which of course predisposes me to diabetes .. and my A1C has risen slowly over the years

I don't take anything as True Gospel as far as health is concerned -- I read, I look, I experience, I test, I see how it affects ME -- and now how it affects Catcat

(also DH was at one time diagnosed as diabetic, diet/exercise controlled for years but now takes metformin -- and I nag him about what he eats, since he eats oftener than Catcat, and mostly crackers and starchy vegetables, he's only paranoid about "sugar", any sugar, including fructose and lactose, and in any quantity over 3%)

 

[Tomlin]

true, and as we all know, ECID -- I've read a lot about carbohydrates and nutrition since I've dealt with a tendency towards hypoglycemia all my life, which of course predisposes me to diabetes .. and my A1C has risen slowly over the years

I don't take anything as True Gospel as far as health is concerned -- I read, I look, I experience, I test, I see how it affects ME -- and now how it affects Catcat

(also DH was at one time diagnosed as diabetic, diet/exercise controlled for years but now takes metformin -- and I nag him about what he eats, since he eats oftener than Catcat, and mostly crackers and starchy vegetables, he's only paranoid about "sugar", any sugar, including fructose and lactose, and in any quantity over 3%)

Thats great ! It's all about balance for sure! We don't eliminate any food groups, especially ones that provide important nutrients & of course, very active with sports & weights. Thats another piece I try to focus on with the cats...exercise, movement, mental stimulation since they are indoors. Now that they are older, its especially important because they have a tendency to just lay/sit around. We make sure they get exercised at least 2x/day.

Wishing you, Catcat & Phoebe Squeak health & finding the most helpful food !!

 

[JoyBee&Ravan]

weight management dry food.

Dr. Lisa Pierson has some interesting things to say about dry food. Have you read her sticky note
Info Dry Food - PLEASE consider more than just carbohydrate content

My 3 cats were raised on a raw meat diet. After reading Dr. Pierson's info I'd never give my cats dry food.
Dry food was created for our convenience. Cats do not need the "food Groups" They are obligate
carnivores.

 

[Tomlin]

Dr. Lisa Pierson has some interesting things to say about dry food. Have you read her sticky note
Info Dry Food - PLEASE consider more than just carbohydrate content

My 3 cats were raised on a raw meat diet. After reading Dr. Pierson's info I'd never give my cats dry food.
Dry food was created for our convenience. Cats do not need the "food Groups" They are obligate
carnivores.

With re: to "food groups" I was referring to my husband & I . However, in speaking with 2 vet nutritionists, while, yes, cats are carnivores, when they eat food in the wild, they don't just eat the breast meat or leg meat aka protein (like we would do). They actually eat the organs, which means they are eating animals that eat plant based diets/vegetation & they also end up eating some of the fur/tiny bones which act as fiber for their system. So, while on the surface, it looks like they only eat protein, they actually are eating more than just protein.

 

[Tanya and Ducia]

They actually eat the organs, which means they are eating animals that eat plant based diets/vegetation & they also end up eating some of the fur/tiny bones which act as fiber for their system

I agree with that but want to mention that Dr. Pierson wrote in her blog that the carbs consumed that way (via grass/seeds eating prey) are predigested carbs, it is very different than pure potato starch added to the canned food or any other carbs that we not fermented in the prey's stomach.

 

[Tomlin]

I agree with that but want to mention that Dr. Pierson wrote in her blog that the carbs consumed that way (via grass/seeds eating prey) are predigested carbs, it is very different than pure potato starch added to the canned food or any other carbs that we not fermented in the prey's stomach.

Definitely have to pay attention to what is constituting the carbs in a food & what type it is. Many of the reputable brands make sure its a form that is slowly absorbed so that it mimics the process you are talking about.

 

[Perry & Jenn]

Following, super interesting. I am on the hunt for a lower-carb food again because Weruva changed their bff originals formula from aspic to gelee, and Perry doesn't want anything to do with it now. He's a super picky eater, and we've tried so many foods, so I'm starting to think if I can get something solid in the 6-8% carbs range, I'll take it. This thread is convincing me that I should be more open with ingredients and try things I might not've before since ECID. Thanks, all.

 

[Tomlin]

Following, super interesting. I am on the hunt for a lower-carb food again because Weruva changed their bff originals formula from aspic to gelee, and Perry doesn't want anything to do with it now. He's a super picky eater, and we've tried so many foods, so I'm starting to think if I can get something solid in the 6-8% carbs range, I'll take it. This thread is convincing me that I should be more open with ingredients and try things I might not've before since ECID. Thanks, all.

That shouldn't be too difficult . There are a decent amount of quality foods out there in that range these days. Just Google it & check out the ingredients etc & find one that fits your cat best. Some, like me, need to watch fat% in addition to carbs. I also look at calories as well. Thats my hope for the future, less fat & calories in some of these foods!!