? HELP - Numbers all over the place !

Status
Not open for further replies.
amy keay

amy keay

Member Since 2018
can you help please ?
I’ve set up a spreadsheet and have a few numbers (please take a look). These are taken with a human meter (Alpha trac)
Soot BG levels are all over the place at the moment and I don’t know what to do.
Last night he was 20.7 and so gave him 1.25 shot of caninsulin. He woke me up at midnight (unusual for him and he’s been drinking lots).
I’ve just done his AMPS and it’s 8.6 !
I suspect he was trying to wake me up in the night cos he was going hypo and needed food (there was food left out). My vets doesn’t open for another 3 hours. Based on the level this morning he hasn’t had his shot

What’s going on ?
He recently had a shot of antibiotics (about 2 weeks ago now) cos he had a raised temperature - could he have an infection ? That wouldn’t account for the low numbers ? I’ve also done a blood ketone reading 0.2mmol

Amy x
 
amy keay said:
I’ve set up a spreadsheet and have a few numbers
Click to expand...

You're entering your numbers on the wrong "side" of the spreadsheet. Since you use "World" numbers and not the US numbers, you need to enter them on the "World" spreadsheet. You've got them on the US spreadsheet now.
upload_2019-6-11_1-18-50.png


amy keay said:
I’ve just done his AMPS and it’s 8.6 !
Click to expand...

We don't suggest shooting Caninsulin under 200 (11.1) at least until you have a lot more experience and data.

If you haven't fed yet, you can wait 30 minutes and re-test to see if she's high enough to shoot

It's normal for their numbers to be all over the place, especially at first
 
Oops re spreadsheet - do I need to recreate a completely new spreadsheet ?
I tested 20 mins after food and he had jumped up to 10.5.

He was diagnosed in Nov 18 and had been on 2u of caninsulin and all was going ok until a couple of weeks ago. Now I don’t know what’s going on
 
amy keay said:
do I need to recreate a completely new spreadsheet ?
Click to expand...

Probably.....on the world spreadsheets I've tried to fix, once they're "bad" it's harder to fix than to start over, especially since you have just a few entries

amy keay said:
I tested 20 mins after food and he had jumped up to 10.5.
Click to expand...

OK, but that may be a "food influenced" number and it's still under 200...Next time you get a Pre-shot you're not sure about, don't feed and then retest in 20-30

It might be safest to just call it a furshot and skip tonight. I don't have a lot of experience with Caninsulin and I can't stay up tonight to make sure he stays safe. It's always better to run high than to risk running too low!

amy keay said:
Now I don’t know what’s going on
Click to expand...

If he had an infection to begin with and the antibiotic is kicking in to stop it, that may be why his numbers are dropping. Infection can raise the blood glucose quite a lot!

amy keay said:
Quite an important typo ! Big Oops
Click to expand...

No worries....at least we caught it!!
 
Yes the AlphaTrak is a pet meter and the AccuChek is human.

Yes as Chris says, it's normal for numbers to be all over the place, for various reasons. FD is not an exact science. You'd ideally want to see a gradual dip leading to a nadir mid-cycle and gradually rising again but that's far from always the case. This is why you need to test before every shot, to make sure you're not shooting at too low a number.

Just seen a further post from Chris so I won't repeat it but just to say again (as I think I said on Sunday) that infection often raises bg not lowers it, as your vet seemed to be saying, so if the infection has been treated and has now cleared, you are very likely to see lower numbers.

The key to all this really is to be very conscientious about testing, both to give you data to know how the insulin is working on any one day and also therefore to keep your kitty safe.
 
Thanks for the replies.
It was all going well and I was fairly confident that we had the insulin at the right amount until a couple of weeks ago when an infection of some sort got hold. I don’t know what infection it was - his temperature was raised so vet said that antibiotics and metacam was a good option !
This levels are normally PS in the 20’s so I don’t understand why they are low this morning ? Also for him to wake me at midnight is unusual and am thinking the 20.7 I had yesterday PMPS was influenced by something and he dropped too low during the night ??

Is it worth a blood test at the vets ? Trip to the vets ? He’s coming up to 20 years old and always in the back of my mind is making sure he is happy !
 
I’ve done a couple of curves and they have been beautiful smiley faces - starting in the 20’s and nadir of 8 or 9 and then up to the early 20’s again.
 
Pre-shots in the 20s are still too high so you may well need to consider adjusting the dose - sometimes just very fine-tuning is necessary.
A lower than expected PS could mean various things including possible pancreatic activity - this can be very random.
I wouldn't think a trip to the vet is necessary unless you have any other specific concerns, although yes, at 20 it's wise to keep a close eye and let your vet know of any health changes.
 
Hi Amy,

First off, lower numbers at the end/beginning of a Caninsulin cycle can actually often be good news. That's because Caninsulin 'typically' has a short duration in cats, often falling far short of 12 hours. So, to see lower numbers at the end/beginning of a cycle could mean that the cat is getting unusually good duration or even, very rarely, 'carryover' (duration extending into the next cycle) from the insulin. Or, it could be that, as Diana says above, the pancreas is producing some insulin of its own and is able to extend the cycle (rather like 'picking up the ball and running with it'...) The latter situation is much more common.

Another possibility with low numbers at the end/beginning of a cycle is that the insulin dose is too high. It can happen that the cat's blood glucose has actually dropped even lower during the cycle and is now rising from that... But this is 'less likely' with Caninsulin than with some other insulins. Caninsulin doses that are too high 'most often' cause very steep drops quite early on in the cycle, and then sharp rises in blood glucose. (But there are exceptions to this).

amy keay said:
Last night he was 20.7 and so gave him 1.25 shot of caninsulin. He woke me up at midnight (unusual for him and he’s been drinking lots).
I’ve just done his AMPS and it’s 8.6 !
I suspect he was trying to wake me up in the night cos he was going hypo and needed food (there was food left out).
Click to expand...
It 'may be' that his blood glucose was indeed dropping faster or lower than his body was comfortable with. Or, there may be some other reason for his waking you, especially if he did already have food available. (One of my non-diabetics has been driving me crazy the last couple of nights, pawing at my face to wake me up, for no reason that I can think of. :confused:)
If his blood glucose now jumps up higher than is typical for him then that may be evidence of his having dropped too fast or low during the night. And if it jumps very high then it could be that he dipped into hypo numbers. But if his numbers from this point on seem 'typical', then we will never know what happened...
If he seems OK this morning then there doesn't seem to be any need to take any action on that, other than to keep a gentle eye on him.

It could be that he needs less insulin... That's certainly the case if he's dropping too low during the cycle. But if you're finding that you're getting preshots that are too low to shoot then reducing the dose may enable you to give shots both morning and evening, to keep insulin in his system for as much of the time as possible, and to even out the numbers.

Eliz
 
Hi

I’ve just checked his BG and it’s not 21.0 so it’s jumped quite a bit from this morning ! I’ll test again at lunchtime and add to the spreadsheet (which I can’t seem to load at the moment).

If it’s high (in the 20’s later at PMPS time do I give a high ish dose of insulin (I.e 1.5u) or a lower dose ?
The reason I’m questioning is that he was in the 20’s PMPS yesterday and then potentially went too low in the night to get an 8.7 this morning ?

I’m blummin confused.............
 
Hi

He was tested for ketones a while ago and nothing was ever picked up.
Never any issues with dka ? Should I be worried even more than I already am ?
 
I’m about to test his BG again - should I test again for ketones ?
He’s not a happy boy at all. Just sitting at the bottom of the lounge looking very unhappy.
 
BG 19.1 - ketones 0.3
What now ???
got apt at vet tomorrow morning - do I need to take him later today ?
 
amy keay said:
Never any issues with dka ? Should I be worried even more than I already am ?
Click to expand...
Amy, no... It's just that people don't usually test blood for ketones unless the kitty has had DKA previously. So I wanted to know if there was a history.
If a kitty has had a history of DKA then it's more important to not skip insulin shots if at all possible. That's all.
If you at all concerned, DO call your vet.
 
I bought the blood ketone Monitor because I thought it might be a bit more accurate than the urine sticks (I’ve got them too -Ketostix - I had to order them in from a supermarket pharmacy).
I just wanted to be on the safe side !
He’s had a bit of lunch and had a mad 5 mins and has now settled on the sofa. I’ve got an apt tomorrow morning with the vet just to check temperature and any other signs of inflammation / infection that could be affecting his BG.
If I get a BG in high teens / 20’s later do you think it’s ok to give a shot ?
Cos he missed the shot this morning I’m keen to give him some insulin (even if it’s just a small dose) and see what his AMPS level is tomorrow.
Thanks for all your help today - I’d be lost without this board
Amy x
 
Just reading your need to know stuff and notice that there is a feeling and clinical opinion that ProZinc is a better insulin than Caninsulin.
Is it worth asking the vet tomorrow for ProZinc ? Because soot isn’t regulated yet though I wouldn’t want to cause him upset and ill health by trying to switch to a different insulin. If it’s going to be an easier job to potentially get him regulated I’d happily give it to him.
 
Yes if he's in the mid teens or 20s, definitely give a shot.
I'm not clear on what testing you've done up till now but has he always been in the 20s at pre shot and these latest numbers are a new occurrence?

Prozinc is usually a better option for cats, yes. Caninsulin was formulated for dogs who have a different metabolism. It doesn't cause upset to switch to another insulin if the existing one isn't doing the job. You can ask the vet for Prozinc but not all vets are keen to switch so it will be their decision at this point.
 
Hi

I've done some random testing and also a curve at the vets and a couple of curves at home. These pre shot numbers we are getting are recent and a bit of a shock! We were getting to the point of upping the caninsulin to 2.5u and then he seemed off his food so vets took temp and gave a 2 week antibiotic shot.
I'll have to look back at my diary to see if these low numbers are coinciding with end of antibiotics- I think they might be !
I'm tempted to give a low shot tonight (maybe just 1u based on last night) and also I've been awake since midnight and I can't stay up all night to check on him.
 
Amy so glad you are getting feedback from far more experienced members here -- yes, especially with vetsulin, the numbers sometimes seem to be all over the place and not making sense -- just like you I was confused, worried, upset, frantically looking for help -- worst of it is, the cats pick up our emotional upheaval and THAT influences their blood glucose as well ! :eek: -- just what we don't need :facepalm:

if you want proof, look at Catcat's spreadsheet (not the metric one, I'm trying to do that in my spare time) -- I'm reading meter in US numbers but the color coding will give you the info, as well as the trends of the numbers -- I'm close to transitioning Catcat to Lantus, which is another insulin which lasts long enough to get a consistent dosage running through the metabolism

:bighug::bighug::bighug: -- should be a smiley for "have patience" or "roll with it"
 
Patience isn’t one of my best traits and it’s blummin hard sometimes !
I like logic too and when numbers come up that don’t make sense it throws me !

The main thing in all of this is Sooty - I’m trying to do the best for him and I wish he understood what I was doing and why !
He knows he gets chicken more often than he used to but just thinks he’s a lucky cat !

I’m hoping his levels are high enough for a shot later (I don’t like skipping the shots) and I’ll try my best to stay awake for as long as possible to make sure he’s ok.
Do you test through the night ? Or give a lower night time dose to be on the safe side ?
 
if I tried to test during the night, I would flub it -- we're on a 7a - 7p schedule, so I do get a test in at +3 in the evening (10 pm) -- already short on sleep since Catcat wakes us up at 5 am or before (today it was 4:40) wanting food -- I need my morning dose of :coffee: - to test like an intelligent human being, so AMPS happens around 6:30 -- never a morning person, prone myself to hypoglycemia, probably raises the AMPS number since Catcat is agitating for food for a couple of hours there

so far no dangerously low BG numbers early at night, I do tend to give him a good dose of food at that +3 to "cushion" the nadir on that cycle, so far it's worked, it'been suggested that my few low AMPS might be pancreatic activity, or an unusual double-nadir as is seen in dogs on same insulin (their metabolism is different)
 
I’ve got my fingers crossed for his PMPS shot cos I desperately need some sleep (been awake since midnight and maybe had a couple of hours dozing).
Coffee is keeping me going at the moment and the Adrenalin worrying about him !
Like you I’ve always done an evening little meal to cushion the night time and I know this is when he sleeps (he’s an active cat and spends 16 a day outside - pretty good for a 20 year old cat).
It’s raining here all day so he has been sitting in my porch desperately wanting to be outside,
Hope you have a good day and Catcat has a good day too

A x
 
PMPS was 23.1 (1.5 hours no food).

Thinking 1.5 u ? Maybe to be on the safe side 1.25 and see how he is for AMPS

Any thoughts from anyone ?
Thanks
Amy and Sooty xx
 
Hi Amy, Just trying to catch up here (saw your other post over on Caninsulin forum). Last night the 1.25u seemed to leave you with a pre shot this AM too low to shoot so as Eliz suggested, I think I'd try 1u and see what Sooty does with the hopes that you won't have preshots too low to shoot. I know you need sleep but if you can get a test around +3 or so post shot tonight, it will really help us help you. Maybe set an alarm to get up and do a quick test.
 
MrWorfMen's Mom said:
Hi Amy, Just trying to catch up here (saw your other post over on Caninsulin forum). Last night the 1.25u seemed to leave you with a pre shot this AM too low to shoot so as Eliz suggested, I think I'd try 1u and see what Sooty does with the hopes that you won't have preshots too low to shoot. I know you need sleep but if you can get a test around +3 or so post shot tonight, it will really help us help you. Maybe set an alarm to get up and do a quick test.
Click to expand...
Hi

You read my mind and I’ve just given him 1u (based on what Elizabeth said earlier and the fact I don’t like missing any shots).
He’s had his shot at 5.15 (a little bit early) so I’m going to test his Bg at about 8pm and then hopefully get some sleep if the Bg hasn’t dropped too quickly or too sharply. It’ll give me more confidence and everyone who has been helping me a bit more data to go on.
 
Just checked his BG and +2.5 we are at 14.5 (yellow) from 23 (red).
He’s having a bedtime snack and I feel comfortable enough to go to bed knowing that hopefully he won’t drop too low and that the AMPS should be ok and high enough for another shot

Thank you to everyone who has helped us today - you really have a wealth of info and I couldn’t have got through today without your help and advice
Thank you again from me and Sooty xxxx
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top