? Could sudden drops early +1/+2 be sign of making their own insulin?

[Jasper Blue and Jay]

So... some of you may have been following my efforts to prevent bouncing, even if that meant never getting those coveted "greens!"... I didn't care... I didn't want greens if it meant bouncing into purples or even reds...


I wanted to keep him as steady as possible... gently let his body get used to lower numbers...

And it was working great...

Slowly but surely we elimited reds... then we even eliminated pinks...then we eliminated yellows...


And now those dreaded purples are back.

Not really just one... and I know why... but nevertheless...

We had eliminated them.

I had, with great difficulty, managed to prevent bounces... finding the sweet spot dose for each preshot number...etc...


And now he's having pretty steep drops very early in the cycle...

Causing bounces.

And .5 doesn't *seem* like it is too much insulin based on his preshot numbers even before the bouncing started...

And because he still needs to gain weight...


I don't really want to lower to .25 (and still haven't had a chance to get u100 syringes yet so I can try something like .40 or .30)

So... if you feel they need about .5 and don't want to lower... but want to prevent bounces... and help him gain weight...


I am adding in some medium carb food....


I am bad at math but I think I gave him about 10% this am.

Which was probably too much for this am because his preshot number was high from a bounce...


The frustration from the sudden bouncing is making it hard to think straight... lol.


Also, since his numbers have been lower he's been eating a more normal amount, even at his preshot meal when he's not eaten for like 4-5 hours.

I think that's probably why the early drops...

But today with the gravy food added into his low carb food he ate it all up lol

I have been trying to get them to go back to the preshot meal with crumbled purebites but neither of them really like to eat much in one meal. And grazing doesnt seem to prevent the early drop either.


I mostly just needed to vent...

I gotta try to get out today and get those syringes if his numbers are fine after nadir and if I have enough energy from lack of sleep. (the possibility that the pharmacy here won't sell syringes without a prescription is stressing me out too)

So the plan going forward is ... if I can get the syringes maybe start to try .4 instead of .5...if I can get a low enough preshot number to give it a try.

Or... stick with the .5 and keep adding in a little bit of higher carb food with his shot meal...

Which I had been considering for a bit now anyway...



Oh!?

Is there a chance that ...

The early drops he has been having...

Could they be that his body is trying to make it's own insulin?

So on the days he is able to make his own insulin from his preshot meal... his bg doesn't go up... and then by the time the insulin starts to kick in it's dropping him faster??


ok... I'm going to let myself believe that's the case for a little bit... lol don't burst my bubble !

 

[Jasper Blue and Jay]

Just called walmart... I *can* get 10 syringes without a prescription... I'm assuming my wife can too...lol...and 20 should be plenty to get started...


What happens after that? lol do they take our drivers license numbers and make use wait another month or something?

Ugh.

Don't we *want* junkies to have clean needles?

I don't get it.

Anyway, that's one less stressor so hopefully I can get to the store in a little bit and get some and then I'll feel better at shot time that I have the needles I need for whatever dose he needs..

 

[Djamila]

The early drops he has been having...

Which cycles are you seeing that?

Could they be that his body is trying to make it's own insulin?

Even diabetic cats have some pancreas function still, so yes, he is making some of his own insulin every cycle. The insulin we inject augments that. An early drop can be a sign of healing, or it can just be a cat that has an earlier onset.

I don't see bouncing in your recent cycles. I see a food spike, and the normal rise and fall of BG over a cycle, but not bouncing. And bouncing is a pretty normal thing and shows a healthy functioning liver. We do our best to avoid unnecessary drama for our kitties, but bouncing isn't really something to fear or spend too much time worrying about.

 

[Jasper Blue and Jay]

His nadir has been midcycle the whole time.

He recently started having huge drops at around +2, which has been resulting in mini bounces within that cycle...which were resolving by the next preshot...


til now.

Today's cycle with 10% carbs AND a higher preshot being nice and steady and normal mid cycle nadir confirms he is dropping too fast/low/early and bouncing from this dose.

Have to decide how to manage it... was trying to decide between either more carbs or less insulin...

The way he did today with a higher amps AND 10% carbs (which is about a 7% increase for him)


And he just got a 127 PMPS....


which is officially his lowest preshot ever...omg...

 

[Jasper Blue and Jay]

lol lost the plot of that reply, started it and then tested him in the middle of writing it and freaked out lol...


I guess he could still have a bounce from today's cycle going from so high to so much lower but it was relatively gradual so I'm hoping not.

127!!!

I hope he doesn't bounce tonight but even if he does I'm thinking it will clear by amps...and maybe then we'll have a better idea what his numbers really are without bouncing...

ugh.

As much as I want to be able to lower his dose I can't help thinking that being underweight means its ok to give him more insulin than he really needs and just manage it with higher carb food until he gains a bit more weight...but he feels so much more solid than he did... so I don't know...

Ok I'm done obsessing for now... lol.... going to take a nap.

 

[Rachel]

Maybe I'm confused...I don't see any huge drops at +2. I see the normal food spike at that time or fairly even numbers. I don't see any bouncing in his SS.

I'm also confused by what you mean with the mini bouncing in a cycle...can you explain what cycle you see that and kind of walk me through what you mean by the mini bouncing?

 

[Yong & Maury GA]

I'm with Djamila and Rachel... I don't see "huge" drops early in the cycles. Biggest one I see is like 90 points by +3 which isn't a huge drop . I do see some nice progress in his SS though! Exactly what foods are you feeding him? What was his weight pre-diabetes, current weight, and should be weight? Do you have him on a scheduled feeding cycle with his snacks? I do think 0.75u was too much for him at this time, it can always change , but he also seems to clear a bounce pretty quick when he has one and they're not major bounces. If I remember, typical bounces can take 3-6 cycles (12 hours) to clear in some kitties.

 

[Jasper Blue and Jay]

It's so weird, I was just on someone else's thread, they had less of a drop from nearly same number in the same amount of time and others were alarmed at the drop.. lol

I come here and everyone is like, drop what drop I don't see a drop...

I don't get it lol...

I looked back and forth from that spreadsheet to mine ... and I was like... ok if they are supposed to be alarmed by that... what am I supposed to be by this bigger drop? lol


I'm going back to sleep.

 

[MamaMug]

I'm no expert in dosing and bouncing. We're relatively new to this as well.

However I do think that you're making this harder on yourself at times. I personally don't see the value to adding midcarb and gravy to food. I think it could be creating another variable that may make it hard to pin what would constitute as prudent dosing. If Jasper is underweight, I think a better focus would be on calories. Keeping the carb intake at a relatively consistent point will give you more insight to his BSL.

 

[Jasper Blue and Jay]

I'm no expert in dosing and bouncing. We're relatively new to this as well.

However I do think that you're making this harder on yourself at times. I personally don't see the value to adding midcarb and gravy to food. I think it could be creating another variable that may make it hard to pin what would constitute as prudent dosing. If Jasper is underweight, I think a better focus would be on calories. Keeping the carb intake at a relatively consistent point will give you more insight to his BSL.

lol

Wow.

 

[MamaMug]

lol

Wow.

I didn't mean to offend and I'm sorry if you took it this way.

Everything I've read leads me to feel that given cats are through and through carnivores, that carbs should be limited. Their bodies simply aren't meant to process it in the way other animals can.

If there's something constructive to be offered about introducing additional carbs, I would be all ears.

 

[Jasper Blue and Jay]

I didn't mean to offend and I'm sorry if you took it this way.

Everything I've read leads me to feel that given cats are through and through carnivores, that carbs should be limited. Their bodies simply aren't meant to process it in the way other animals can.

If there's something constructive to be offered about introducing additional carbs, I would be all ears.

I don't owe it to anyone to explain on demand why I'm choosing to give my cat the amount of carbs I am.
Especially since I've explained it...extensively...in multiple other posts.

But ...


Dr. Lisa recommends 10% or less carbs.

That is what my cat is getting.

 

[Jill & Alex (GA)]

However I do think that you're making this harder on yourself at times. I personally don't see the value to adding midcarb and gravy to food. I think it could be creating another variable that may make it hard to pin what would constitute as prudent dosing. If Jasper is underweight, I think a better focus would be on calories. Keeping the carb intake at a relatively consistent point will give you more insight to his BSL.

For being relatively new to this dance, Michelle makes excellent points for your consideration. I haven't wanted to butt in, but her comments... I've been watching and biting my tongue. I have wanted to bring up every one of them myself.

1. "… you're making this harder on yourself at times"
2. "I personally don't see the value to adding midcarb and gravy to food. I think it could be creating another variable that may make it hard to pin what would constitute as prudent dosing"
3. "If Jasper is underweight, I think a better focus would be on calories"
4. " Keeping the carb intake at a relatively consistent point will give you more insight to his BSL"

You're correct. You don't owe anyone an explanation, but perhaps give these points some thought... or at least consideration? I think you might be pleasantly surprised!

 

[Jasper Blue and Jay]

For being relatively new to this dance, Michelle makes excellent points for your consideration. I haven't wanted to butt in, but her comments... I've been watching and biting my tongue. I have wanted to bring up every one of them myself.

1. "… you're making this harder on yourself at times"
2. "I personally don't see the value to adding midcarb and gravy to food. I think it could be creating another variable that may make it hard to pin what would constitute as prudent dosing"
3. "If Jasper is underweight, I think a better focus would be on calories"
4. " Keeping the carb intake at a relatively consistent point will give you more insight to his BSL"

You're correct. You don't owe anyone an explanation, but perhaps give these points some thought... or at least consideration? I think you might be pleasantly surprised!

You might check out some of my many lengthy posts explaining my thoughts on everything Ive written here...they answer all of your questions.





4. I never said I plan on being inconsistent. Why suggest such a thing? In fact I've demonstrated and stated repeatedly that I strive for consistency.
3. As Ive explained at least two other times, there is no way to increase his calories with the 3% carb food.
2. Prudent dosing is the whole freaking point of the comment you've replied to here, and every other.
1. Obnoxious in the context of telling me I'm wrong when you admit you don't know anything about bounces and/or the value of higher carbs for some cats.

Once again....

Dr. Lisa recommends 10% or less carbs.
That is what I'm doing.

If you don't agree with her, or the stickies here that's fine.

But nothing I am doing or saying goes against Dr. Lisa's recommendations or the stickies here on this site.

I'd appreciate it if people could refrain from immediately telling me I'm wrong...without actually looking at the ss for more than a second and without reading my extensive updates on whats going on. Or without hitting the google to maybe see that yes...some cats actually do better from more carbs, and yes, bouncing is a thing.

Or just refrain from telling me how wrong I am period?

If you'd like... when I'm done recouping some of the time Ive wasted having to explain all this for the 10th time...

I'll find you the links for Dr. Lisa's recommendations and some stickies.

(the one on tips for advice givers is a favorite of mine.)

Again, none of these comments have been remotely helpful.

If you don't understand the things I'm talking about... feel free to research them yourself instead of repeatedly demanding I explain it ... again... and again... and again.

Seriously...if nothing else... I explain the reasoning behind what I'm doing... a lot.


This may be the last thing I write for a while... but...

You know...

It would be great to get a reply like this once in a while "I don't know much about increased carbs and clearly you've done more research into it than I have, but good luck with it, let us know how it works out!"

That would be awesome lol

Or "I don't see the bounce you're talking about but your posts clearly indicate you stare at that spreadsheet all day every day so I imagine you understand whats going on with your cat a bit better than I do from just glancing at it without reading the context from all the notes/posts, so good luck with the new thing you're trying!"


It is okay to say "I don't know."

It is okay to just offer moral support.

 

[Jill & Alex (GA)]

You might check out some of my many lengthy posts explaining my thoughts on everything Ive written here...they answer all of your questions.





4. I never said I plan on being inconsistent. Why suggest such a thing? In fact I've demonstrated and stated repeatedly that I strive for consistency.
3. As Ive explained at least two other times, there is no way to increase his calories with the 3% carb food.
2. Prudent dosing is the whole freaking point of the comment you've replied to here, and every other.
1. Obnoxious in the context of telling me I'm wrong when you admit you don't know anything about bounces and/or the value of higher carbs for some cats.

Once again....

Dr. Lisa recommends 10% or less carbs.
That is what I'm doing.

If you don't agree with her, or the stickies here that's fine.

But nothing I am doing or saying goes against Dr. Lisa's recommendations or the stickies here on this site.

I'd appreciate it if people could refrain from immediately telling me I'm wrong...without actually looking at the ss for more than a second and without reading my extensive updates on whats going on. Or without hitting the google to maybe see that yes...some cats actually do better from more carbs, and yes, bouncing is a thing.

Or just refrain from telling me how wrong I am period?

If you'd like... when I'm done recouping some of the time Ive wasted having to explain all this for the 10th time...

I'll find you the links for Dr. Lisa's recommendations and some stickies.

(the one on tips for advice givers is a favorite of mine.)

Again, none of these comments have been remotely helpful.

If you don't understand the things I'm talking about... feel free to research them yourself instead of repeatedly demanding I explain it ... again... and again... and again.

Seriously...if nothing else... I explain the reasoning behind what I'm doing... a lot.


This may be the last thing I write for a while... but...

You know...

It would be great to get a reply like this once in a while "I don't know much about increased carbs and clearly you've done more research into it than I have, but good luck with it, let us know how it works out!"

That would be awesome lol

Or "I don't see the bounce you're talking about but your posts clearly indicate you stare at that spreadsheet all day every day so I imagine you understand whats going on with your cat a bit better than I do from just glancing at it without reading the context from all the notes/posts, so good luck with the new thing you're trying!"


It is okay to say "I don't know."

It is okay to just offer moral support.

Jaspar, I started typing a what would have been a rather lengthy post, but I stopped. It would have amounted to nothing more than an exercise in futility for me and a waste of your time because apparently you already have all the answers. Instead, I'd like to reiterate a comment made in my previous post: "perhaps give these points some thought... or at least consideration". That's all. Just think about them because as sure as I'm sitting here I'm convinced they'll help Jaspar. Seriously.

Wishing you the best of luck!

 

[Jasper Blue and Jay]

My cat's name is Jasper. I'm a hooman.



It is just insulting to keep saying "perhaps give these points some thought" as if it isn't things I've already done for a month.

And then "just think about them"

As if I haven't put a great deal of thought into my cat's care already... thus leading me to where I am now... posting these very questions you're replying to.

"because apparently you already have all the answers" wow.

All of this is uncalled for.


You called me by my cat's name... misspelled.. though its right there in my name and signature.

Ok.

So...

Hi, I'm Jay, nice to meet you! I've been here for about a month now.

Check out my signature, spreadsheet (with notes) and some of the many many lengthy detailed posts I've made detailing what's going on with Jasper.


If you do that, you'll see clearly I've already done all the stuff you're inexplicably suggesting...for a month now.


I didn't deserve to be treated this way for asking a question.

Again, I'm not sure why not just say "I don't know" or "I'm not familiar with your situation but that's an interesting question, let me know what you find out and good luck!"

If you took a minute you'd see this isn't my first day, and if you look at the spreadsheet... one might even conclude Ive actually been doing *something* right..

Would be awesome to just be supported, this is difficult stuff... instead of being judged and insulted for asking a question.

I truly do not get it.

 

[MamaMug]

@Jasper Blue and Jay I have read your prior posts and your reasoning. I have read your spreadsheet. I have read an awful lot about diet in general and I will have to just agree to disagree with you at this point.

Yes, I commented that I cannot speak to bouncing or dosing. Our boy does not bounce and I'm too new to this to consider giving anyone dosing advice.

Diet is something that has helped us tremendously. I have poured hours into researching and reading up on diet. I lived and breathed diet for the first month of our journey. It is something I feel comfortable touching on as a suggestion. I don't think I'm coming from a place of ignorance in doing so.

I honestly don't feel that anyone was intending to be insulting or judgemental here. As I mentioned before, if this is how my prior comments were received then I think there is a misunderstanding. My initial comment is intended to be supportive and helpful.

I think it's important to note that we are all here for good reason. We love our cats. We love everyone's cats. We know how maddening the journey can be. No one here wants to see another fail.

As you have indicated you feel there's little value I can impart, I'll refrain from commenting on your posts going forward. I, also a human, don't really care to be insulted for just expressing my thoughts either.
I truly do wish you and Jasper the best.

 

[Jasper Blue and Jay]

@Jasper Blue and Jay I have read your prior posts and your reasoning. I have read your spreadsheet. I have read an awful lot about diet in general and I will have to just agree to disagree with you at this point.

Yes, I commented that I cannot speak to bouncing or dosing. Our boy does not bounce and I'm too new to this to consider giving anyone dosing advice.

Diet is something that has helped us tremendously. I have poured hours into researching and reading up on diet. I lived and breathed diet for the first month of our journey. It is something I feel comfortable touching on as a suggestion. I don't think I'm coming from a place of ignorance in doing so.

I honestly don't feel that anyone was intending to be insulting or judgemental here. As I mentioned before, if this is how my prior comments were received then I think there is a misunderstanding. My initial comment is intended to be supportive and helpful.

I think it's important to note that we are all here for good reason. We love our cats. We love everyone's cats. We know how maddening the journey can be. No one here wants to see another fail.

As you have indicated you feel there's little value I can impart, I'll refrain from commenting on your posts going forward. I, also a human, don't really care to be insulted for just expressing my thoughts either.
I truly do wish you and Jasper the best.

Yeah, none of this is relevant to my original question, not sure how we got here but...


Dr Lisa Pierson is the vet who wrote the chart we all use here.

She is the one who recommends 10% or less carbs.

Really not sure why it seems to personally offend some people that I'm following her recommendations ...since we all seem to trust her recommendations, kind of like a twilight zone experience right now but... yeah you can check out her chart and/or her blog if you're actually interested.






Here is a link for you to check out Dr Lisa's chart: https://catinfo.org/docs/CatFoodProteinFatCarbPhosphorusChart.pdf

"Carbohydrates: Choosing diets with 10% or less carb calories is a good goal but, unless the cat is diabetic, sticking with less than 15% is also reasonable."

 

[MamaMug]

Yeah, none of this is relevant to my original question, not sure how we got here but...


Dr Lisa Pierson is the vet who wrote the chart we all use here.

She is the one who recommends 10% or less carbs.

Really not sure why it seems to personally offend some people that I'm following her recommendations ...since we all seem to trust her recommendations, kind of like a twilight zone experience right now but... yeah you can check out her chart and/or her blog if you're actually interested.






Here is a link for you to check out Dr Lisa's chart: https://catinfo.org/docs/CatFoodProteinFatCarbPhosphorusChart.pdf

"Carbohydrates: Choosing diets with 10% or less carb calories is a good goal but, unless the cat is diabetic, sticking with less than 15% is also reasonable."

I am very familiar with Dr Lisas work.
I am not personally offended by your take on it, I think what you are referencing is more a reaction to the tone and condescension of your responses. I'll take no further part in this conversation.

 

[Jasper Blue and Jay]

I'm with Djamila and Rachel... I don't see "huge" drops early in the cycles. Biggest one I see is like 90 points by +3 which isn't a huge drop . I do see some nice progress in his SS though! Exactly what foods are you feeding him? What was his weight pre-diabetes, current weight, and should be weight? Do you have him on a scheduled feeding cycle with his snacks? I do think 0.75u was too much for him at this time, it can always change , but he also seems to clear a bounce pretty quick when he has one and they're not major bounces. If I remember, typical bounces can take 3-6 cycles (12 hours) to clear in some kitties.

Thank you for your kind words, I meant to respond to them earlier but the thread got derailed and I got distracted.

It means a lot to me to see some of the progress acknowledged, thank you so much.

I consider it a huge drop because it's about 50% in just a couple hours and very early before onset of the insulin, especially since it's a new thing for him I give it a bit more weight as something to watch or figure out the cause of. He's always had a very symmetrical curve, with nadir nicely in the middle.

I don't like seeing him drop so much in general but also the "mini bounce" ...meaning the fact that he was already starting to rise before even hitting nadir... was concerning for me. Especially since it meant that a bounce might be possible that was affecting his preshot numbers which is how I determine the dose which means ...higher preshot = higher dose = early drop = higher preshot... on and on.

I want to know what his "real" numbers are without the early drop and subsequent "minibounce" as I call it, so that I can find a more appropriate dose, or diet...for him.

Does that make sense?

 

[Jill & Alex (GA)]

Back to my original comments...

For being relatively new to this dance, Michelle makes excellent points for your consideration. I haven't wanted to butt in, but her comments... I've been watching and biting my tongue. I have wanted to bring up every one of them myself.

1. "… you're making this harder on yourself at times"
2. "I personally don't see the value to adding midcarb and gravy to food. I think it could be creating another variable that may make it hard to pin what would constitute as prudent dosing"
3. "If Jasper is underweight, I think a better focus would be on calories"
4. " Keeping the carb intake at a relatively consistent point will give you more insight to his BSL"

You're correct. You don't owe anyone an explanation, but perhaps give these points some thought... or at least consideration? I think you might be pleasantly surprised!

I agree with MamaMug's astute observations in post #9 and stand behind my original comments as posted above. I also am not offended by your take. I'd like to make that perfectly clear.

That said, give me a little credit for picking up a thing or two in the almost 13 years I've been an active member of this board versus the 7 weeks you've been here. You're drawing conclusions, taking offense, and creating issues where there are none and it's not the first time.

I see nothing further to be gained from keeping this thread open for debate. Feel free to open a new thread for discussion... sans the tone and condescension.