Totally unexpected

[ladysown]

so our cat Milo was diagnosed about two months ago.

He was on 3.5 caninisulin (spelling?) He wasn't particularly well controlled and I fretted over how much we could give him, and keep him where he should be.

We had him on a mix of dry and canned, then dry and homemade, and finally just on homemade.

Switching him completely to homemade... took about 10 days. and his BSG levels suddenly dropped. from being 19-23, with a drop in the afternoon to about 7. To know averaging 3.4-4.6 every day! It has completely blown my mind.

He's lost weight and seems to have stabilized at 15 lbs. Acts like a young cat. Demands to be fed every 12 hours, and sometimes more often, which we are happy enough to do. It's not affecting his BSG.

But we have our Milo cat back! It's like he's three years old!!!!!!

YAY for homemade!!!!!!!

 

[Idjit's mom]

It sure makes a difference, doesn't it? Hooray for you and Milo. Are you feeding raw or cooked meat, with a supplement? We went to raw with FoodFurLife EZ Complete supplement, and Idjit is getting along very well on the diet. It's nice when they act healthy and frisky.
Keep us posted with his progress as he keeps getting those much better numbers.

 

[AliceMeowliss (GA)]

That's so amazing and inspiring to hear! Yes, what sort of recipe are you using?

 

[ladysown]

We cook it. We add the needed supplements. We tried raw but he kept throwing it up. Rather gross to clean it up so cooked is better.

 

[ladysown]

We found a recipe online that we use
I will try to find it later. I don't use the meat types exactly just the ratio of meat to bone to supplement.

 

[Daddy Jack's Mommy (GA)]

But we have our Milo cat back! It's like he's three years old!!!!!!

YAY for homemade!!!!!!!

That's wonderful news! Hooray For Milo! This may be a crazy question, but is it expensive to make your own?

 

[Ti-Mousse (GA) Pepe (GA)]

We found a recipe online that we use
I will try to find it later. I don't use the meat types exactly just the ratio of meat to bone to supplement.

If you find your recipe, I would be interested! I'm in the process of finding a new diet for Ti-Mousse: raw and/or home cooked!
Milo has beautiful numbers!

 

[Sheila C]

Hi - I'm Sheila - Inky's human - She was diagnosed this weekend with Diabetes. Reading was 440 or something thereabouts. Could have knocked me over with a feather. I would like to do anything and everything that I can to bring this under control but am feeling totally lost. She is a fan of dry food will almost not eat wet food. Blue Buffalo Senior for sensitive stomach is what she eats. What is is recipe that everyone on the forum is talking about. Where does one find it? Any help or "words of encouragement" would be so appreciated. Thank you and looking forward to hearing from anyone.

 

[Idjit's mom]

Hi - I'm Sheila - Inky's human - She was diagnosed this weekend with Diabetes. Reading was 440 or something thereabouts. Could have knocked me over with a feather. I would like to do anything and everything that I can to bring this under control but am feeling totally lost. She is a fan of dry food will almost not eat wet food. Blue Buffalo Senior for sensitive stomach is what she eats. What is is recipe that everyone on the forum is talking about. Where does one find it? Any help or "words of encouragement" would be so appreciated. Thank you and looking forward to hearing from anyone.

@Sheila C Hi and welcome to FDMB. I noticed that you are a brand new member and you just got the diabetes diagnosis this weekend. Yep, it's a bit of a shock, I remember it well.
We can help you figure out how to help Inky in many ways, including getting her on a proper low carb diet. It's not always easy to transition a dry food eater, but it can be done. There are alternatives for the low carb diet, commercial canned food as well as home prepared diet.
If you would start a new thread on the Main Health forum http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/feline-health-the-main-forum.28/ and start asking your questions there, you are going to get responses. Select the blue Post New Thread button up near the right top area of the page.
Your questions here on someone else's thread is not so noticeable and might be overlooked. I don't want that to happen.
When you start your new thread, tell us a bit about Inky, if the vet has prescribed insulin, what kind and what dose and was a diet change recommended?
The feelings of being totally lost is very common, but there is a wealth of information and support here on the board. We will help you find your way to treating Inky's diabetes and lessening some of the worry and confusion.

 

[Sapphire Skye]

That's so amazing and inspiring to hear! Yes, what sort of recipe are you using?

I am interested in the recipe you are using too. Safie's numbers are TERRIBLE.

 

[ladysown]

GAH.. I've been looking for the exact recipe and can't find it. It's not that hard to do. 10% bone to meat ratio. To every 3 lbs or so you add

• 1 cup water
• 2 eggs
• 2000-5000 mg wild salmon oil
• 400 IU vitamin E (powdered E in capsule form works)
• 50-100 mg vitamin B-complex (start with a smaller amount when beginning a raw meat diet; the vitamin has a strong odor) I find it works well to dissolve it in the water you are using above)
• 2000 mg taurine, powdered
• ¾ tsp lite salt with iodine
• Liver (add 4 oz if the meat you are using does not include organs)

I make a month or so at a time for two cats. Takes about four of my big "thatsa" bowls from tupperware. each bowl holds enough for one round of supplement.

General recommendation is not to do a lot of fish into recipes since some cats will get dependent on the fish smell and won't eat without it. I have easy going cats so I don't worry about it much. I use chicken, fish, rabbit, mouse, beef, squirrel in various amounts. Just so you know, if you use entire mouse, cats will develop "Mouse breath"... not pleasant. Mouse that have been gutted and skinned doesn't tend to have that side-effect. I often use heart, gizzards, and tongue meats.

YOU NEED bone! Some use bone meal but it's not as effective as plain bone. uncooked bone from young rabbit, young chickens, and squirrel grinds up really easily (at least with my grinder).

I have a grinder that does a fantastic job. I mix the meat and organs as I grind it all up. I do beef as a coarse grind as it's good for the teeth. Heart, tongue are excellent low cost meats.

My water portion is leftover broth from soups, stews, bouillon, plain water, veggies, roast chicken, stewed beef etc.

I freeze it flat in freezer bags, thaw out five at a time in a crock pot on low with additional fluids (1.5-2 cups) to cook it with (again those fluids are leftover juices from our family meals) and that does the two cats for 8-10 feedings depending on how accurate we are being and how much Milo is begging. Takes 4-6 hours to cook. Stirring at least four times.

Ah... here you go, this is basically the recipe I have been using. : https://catinfo.org/making-cat-food/#The_Recipe

my hubby bought the taurine online.
The rest we found at walmart and costco.

 

[ladysown]

That's wonderful news! Hooray For Milo! This may be a crazy question, but is it expensive to make your own?

it is definitely cheaper to make my own than to buy wet cat food. Mind..I frequent farmers markets and watch for sales. I also use the cheap meats as much as I can. For instance this weekend I talked with a butcher who had scraps about needing food for my diabetic cat and he gave me a decent deal on them. Told me after "keep the good stuff for yourself eh!". I told him no, the cat would get it all. He snorted at me. If I bought high-end food it would not be cheaper. Takes me one afternoon a month.

 

[Daddy Jack's Mommy (GA)]

it is definitely cheaper to make my own than to buy wet cat food. Mind..I frequent farmers markets and watch for sales. I also use the cheap meats as much as I can. For instance this weekend I talked with a butcher who had scraps about needing food for my diabetic cat and he gave me a decent deal on them. Told me after "keep the good stuff for yourself eh!". I told him no, the cat would get it all. He snorted at me. If I bought high-end food it would not be cheaper. Takes me one afternoon a month.

Thank you so much for that detailed answer. I feel like I have no choice but to start making my own cat food. I have five cats, and before Jack's diagnosis I fed them dry food. I thought I was doing good for them by feeding them grain-free, high quality dry cat food. I had no idea that I contributed not only to Jack's diabetes , but possibly to sicknesses that I lost two other cats from right before his diagnosis. Now here I am struggling to be able to afford to feed five cats a high-quality, low carb, canned food. I thought it would cost more to make my own, but I obviously didn't think that through very much. And I have to admit I find the task to be overwhelming. However, I really feel that I need to do it. Again, congratulations on bringing down Milo's numbers, and restoring some of his kittenhood! You have truly inspired me!

 

[Idjit's mom]

Thank you so much for that detailed answer. I feel like I have no choice but to start making my own cat food. I have five cats, and before Jack's diagnosis I fed them dry food. I thought I was doing good for them by feeding them grain-free, high quality dry cat food. I had no idea that I contributed not only to Jack's diabetes , but possibly to sicknesses that I lost two other cats from right before his diagnosis. Now here I am struggling to be able to afford to feed five cats a high-quality, low carb, canned food. I thought it would cost more to make my own, but I obviously didn't think that through very much. And I have to admit I find the task to be overwhelming. However, I really feel that I need to do it. Again, congratulations on bringing down Milo's numbers, and restoring some of his kittenhood! You have truly inspired me!

Some of buy a ready made supplement and just add to meat and water. I use my food processor to chop down the meat, and Food Fur Life EZ Complete. I did not want to have to track down the necessary essential nutritional ingredients and buy a grinder. I did not want to use bone, as it's high in phosphorus and that was one of my concerns with the canned food. I want to prevent /forestall kidney issues or disease if possible.

You can visit the FFL website and read the information to see if that might be an option. http://www.foodfurlife.com/

 

[Sapphire Skye]

Some of buy a ready made supplement and just add to meat and water. I use my food processor to chop down the meat, and Food Fur Life EZ Complete. I did not want to have to track down the necessary essential nutritional ingredients and buy a grinder. I did not want to use bone, as it's high in phosphorus and that was one of my concerns with the canned food. I want to prevent /forestall kidney issues or disease if possible.

You can visit the FFL website and read the information to see if that might be an option. http://www.foodfurlife.com/

After all the recipes I have seen, the expense of buying a Vitamix ($500 - $700) or a bone-demolishing meat grinder ($150 or more) this seem to be a great fit to my lifestyle. Thanks for the info Buying a food processor is MUCH more affordable.

 

[Daddy Jack's Mommy (GA)]

Some of buy a ready made supplement and just add to meat and water. I use my food processor to chop down the meat, and Food Fur Life EZ Complete. I did not want to have to track down the necessary essential nutritional ingredients and buy a grinder. I did not want to use bone, as it's high in phosphorus and that was one of my concerns with the canned food. I want to prevent /forestall kidney issues or disease if possible.

You can visit the FFL website and read the information to see if that might be an option. http://www.foodfurlife.com/

Thank you for this info! I just read over their website, and I'm interested. (I'm going to order a sample.) However, now I'm terribly confused concerning what diet will be best for all 5 of my furballs. My oldest (Celie, my 14 year old calico) was just dx (yesterday) with CKD. Now I'm beside myself, as she is supposed to eat a low protein diet. I have no idea what do do from here. I am set on making their own food, but how can that be low protein? And I certainly can't feed all of my cats low protein.

 

[Sapphire Skye]

Thank you for this info! I just read over their website, and I'm interested. (I'm going to order a sample.) However, now I'm terribly confused concerning what diet will be best for all 5 of my furballs. My oldest (Celie, my 14 year old calico) was just dx (yesterday) with CKD. Now I'm beside myself, as she is supposed to eat a low protein diet. I have no idea what do do from here. I am set on making their own food, but how can that be low protein? And I certainly can't feed all of my cats low protein.

Read this section: https://catinfo.org/#Kidney_Failure I hope this info helps

 

[Daddy Jack's Mommy (GA)]

Read this section: https://catinfo.org/#Kidney_Failure I hope this info helps

Very interesting read. Thank you for that.
I found an article yesterday- it was an interview with Dr Pierson concerning low protein and CKD. She stated that the low protein, found in the rx diets, is too low even for kidney disease (at 20% protein). She said 40% (as opposed to the 60% or above for cats in the wild) is appropriate for CKD.
Of course my vet suggested rx canned food, and I said no. She said that I can continue with FF (and I also use Dave's canned) and start giving sub-q fluids at home. Until and unless I figure out a better alternative, that's what I'll be doing for now. She is also going to need meds to stop her from vomiting.
Earlier today, I was looking through the recipes on catinfo's site. Dr Pierson clearly states that those recipes are not for cats with kidney disease. She recommends a console with her for specific recipes, or finding recipes online for cats with CKD. However, she warns to stay away from carbs and starches in those recipes, and that's exactly what I see in those low protein alternatives. It's all so confusing to me. My problem is this: All of my cats need to eat the same food. If I could find a recipe with 40% protein, I would be thrilled! Fancy Feast is 40%, so I guess that's one good thing about FF for now.

 

[Sapphire Skye]

It's all so confusing to me. My problem is this: All of my cats need to eat the same food. If I could find a recipe with 40% protein, I would be thrilled! Fancy Feast is 40%, so I guess that's one good thing about FF for now.

I know the feeling of confusion all too well. I myself am trying hard not to over think things. I have been using an app called CarbCalc that I found in my phones app store. After doing the number manually and getting very similar results I trust it a little more. You should try it, its free. Also keeping a keen eye on ingredients. It infuriates me to see grain free foods with potatoes and plant-based proteins.

 

[Daddy Jack's Mommy (GA)]

I know the feeling of confusion all too well. I myself am trying hard not to over think things. I have been using an app called CarbCalc that I found in my phones app store. After doing the number manually and getting very similar results I trust it a little more. You should try it, its free. Also keeping a keen eye on ingredients. It infuriates me to see grain free foods with potatoes and plant-based proteins.

Also keeping a keen eye on ingredients.

I'm frustrated just trying to find low carb canned food that I can afford, and ones that don't include artificial colors and flavors (like fancy feast does). Homemade food seems like such a good option, but now I'm disappointed that I may not have that option because of the high protein (great for all of them except for Celie).

It infuriates me to see grain free foods with potatoes and plant-based proteins.

Me too! For years I fed my cats what I thought was a high quality, grain free dry food. Turns out that I was dead wrong in every possible way. Dry was big mistake, and grain free added carbs. Also, vegetable protein did nothing to contribute to good health for my fur balls. Grr...

 

[Daddy Jack's Mommy (GA)]

After doing the number manually and getting very similar results I trust it a little more.

That app sounds great! I have been using Dr Pierson's food chart. She contacted the companies that manufacture the food and was able to provide the exact nutritional facts. The cans provide only maximum and minimum amounts, so the exact amounts may differ from what we see on the cans. But it sounds like the app is working for you, and we all need to do what is easiest for us. I agree with you - over thinking drives me crazy!! Here's a link to the food chart: http://catinfo.org/docs/CatFoodProteinFatCarbPhosphorusChart.pdf

 

[Sapphire Skye]

I'm frustrated just trying to find low carb canned food that I can afford, and ones that don't include artificial colors and flavors (like fancy feast does). Homemade food seems like such a good option, but now I'm disappointed that I may not have that option because of the high protein (great for all of them except for Celie).

Me too! For years I fed my cats what I thought was a high quality, grain free dry food. Turns out that I was dead wrong in every possible way. Dry was big mistake, and grain free added carbs. Also, vegetable protein did nothing to contribute to good health for my fur balls. Grr...

I am have ordered a case of Triumph Beef formula for my non-diabetic cats. It is 3.182% carb, yes it has beef and some rice flour but I wont be as worried if Sapphire get into it, while I am waiting to see the vet in another week I will be feeding her Dr. Elsey's clean protein (-10.909% carb) Not sure how they come up with negative carbs but from what I have researched it a food with almost no plant-based ingredients. ITs pricey but it helps bring her numbers down it will be worth it. Her BS value are still thru the roof


https://www.chewy.com/dr-elseys-cleanprotein-turkey-formula/dp/146263

https://www.chewy.com/triumph-beef-formula-canned-cat-food/dp/107386

 

[Daddy Jack's Mommy (GA)]

I am have ordered a case of Triumph Beef formula for my non-diabetic cats. It is 3.182% carb, yes it has beef and some rice flour but I wont be as worried if Sapphire get into it, while I am waiting to see the vet in another week I will be feeding her Dr. Elsey's clean protein (-10.909% carb) Not sure how they come up with negative carbs but from what I have researched it a food with almost no plant-based ingredients. ITs pricey but it helps bring her numbers down it will be worth it. Her BS value are still thru the roof


https://www.chewy.com/dr-elseys-cleanprotein-turkey-formula/dp/146263

https://www.chewy.com/triumph-beef-formula-canned-cat-food/dp/107386

I give Dr Elsey's as a treat after I test him. I also treat him with freeze dried shrimp or minnows, and he loves them! When Jack was diagnosed, I switched to all canned/wet food, and it really took his BG numbers down! As a matter of fact, it looks like he is heading for a remission. Dr Elsey's is good as far as carbs, but you still need to be cautious with dry food. And believe me, I'm not judging you at all. We all do the best we can, and every cat is different. But try to also give her wet food, and be sure to add plenty of water to it because dry food doesn't provide the moisture that she needs. (I gave dry food for years, not knowing that canned is a far better choice for their health).

 

[Sapphire Skye]

I give Dr Elsey's as a treat after I test him. I also treat him with freeze dried shrimp or minnows, and he loves them! When Jack was diagnosed, I switched to all canned/wet food, and it really took his BG numbers down! As a matter of fact, it looks like he is heading for a remission. Dr Elsey's is good as far as carbs, but you still need to be cautious with dry food. And believe me, I'm not judging you at all. We all do the best we can, and every cat is different. But try to also give her wet food, and be sure to add plenty of water to it because dry food doesn't provide the moisture that she needs. (I gave dry food for years, not knowing that canned is a far better choice for their health).

I took her completely off dry back in January and was mostly on wet prior to that. Her numbers do not show that though which is the most frustrating part. As a matter of fact I took ALL 3 cats off dry. The other 2 are healthy w/ no health issues at all.

 

[Daddy Jack's Mommy (GA)]

I took her completely off dry back in January and was mostly on wet prior to that. Her numbers do not show that though which is the most frustrating part. As a matter of fact I took ALL 3 cats off dry. The other 2 are healthy w/ no health issues at all.

I'm so sorry that her numbers didn't improve with wet food. This sugar dance can be very frustrating, for sure.

 

[Sapphire Skye]

I'm so sorry that her numbers didn't improve with wet food. This sugar dance can be very frustrating, for sure.

That is why I am going "all out" and getting Dr. Elsey's , I pray it may be what she needs, the next step is homemade food. I am trying to get mentally prepared for "worse case" scenario. I say worse bc it will be either expensive or labor intensive.

 

[Idjit's mom]

That is why I am going "all out" and getting Dr. Elsey's , I pray it may be what she needs, the next step is homemade food. I am trying to get mentally prepared for "worse case" scenario. I say worse bc it will be either expensive or labor intensive.

@Sapphire Skye Denice, a thought occurred to me as I read your last post. It may not be entirely a question of diet to get Sapphire's BG down. Would you consider using a different insulin? Other members have changed insulins and have seen results.
So, I suggest you visit the Lantus forum and the Prozinc forum, and read about the insulins that those members use. Then, perhaps start a new thread asking for input from members that have changed insulins, why they did and what results they got. Then, when you have read about how the other insuins work, you might consider consulting with your vet and try a change.
Just looking around for a solution to help get those BGs down, help Sapphire feel better and lessen the level of frustration and anxiety you are at right now.

Re: homemade food, it's not that bad. Yes, it's more work than opening a can or a bag. The more I went through the process, the faster and easier it became. It isn't for everybody, but it could be worth consideration.

All the best, Denice. I know you are struggling here and I sure hope there are solutions right over the horizon.

 

[Sapphire Skye]

@Sapphire Skye Denice, a thought occurred to me as I read your last post. It may not be entirely a question of diet to get Sapphire's BG down. Would you consider using a different insulin? Other members have changed insulins and have seen results.
So, I suggest you visit the Lantus forum and the Prozinc forum, and read about the insulins that those members use. Then, perhaps start a new thread asking for input from members that have changed insulins, why they did and what results they got. Then, when you have read about how the other insuins work, you might consider consulting with your vet and try a change.
Just looking around for a solution to help get those BGs down, help Sapphire feel better and lessen the level of frustration and anxiety you are at right now.

Re: homemade food, it's not that bad. Yes, it's more work than opening a can or a bag. The more I went through the process, the faster and easier it became. It isn't for everybody, but it could be worth consideration.

All the best, Denice. I know you are struggling here and I sure hope there are solutions right over the horizon.

I looked into Lantus but at $350+ plus the expense at the inital phase of diagnosing it seemed high. I looked into discount programs but only for human use, rx required of course. If you know of any programs that will offer discounts I will for sure look into that.

 

[Idjit's mom]

I looked into Lantus but at $350+ plus the expense at the inital phase of diagnosing it seemed high. I looked into discount programs but only for human use, rx required of course. If you know of any programs that will offer discounts I will for sure look into that.

I remember well the sticker shock on that vial of Lantus we bought! Then, of course, Idjit went OTJ very quickly and we actually used such a small fraction of that vial. I didn't pass it on because I was afraid he would fall out of remission.

There are alternatives, buying from Marks Marine in Canada, and getting the pens so that you use every drop, instead of possibly wasting half of a very expensive product when it gets less effective after about 6 months.
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/buying-insulin-from-canada.203498/
Check current pricing: https://rxcanada4less.com/
You can use the pens just like a vial, with syringes, so you can manage fine dosing.
We also have a Supply Closet with reputable dealers that members buy Lantus through.

 

[Sapphire Skye]

I remember well the sticker shock on that vial of Lantus we bought! Then, of course, Idjit went OTJ very quickly and we actually used such a small fraction of that vial. I didn't pass it on because I was afraid he would fall out of remission.

There are alternatives, buying from Marks Marine in Canada, and getting the pens so that you use every drop, instead of possibly wasting half of a very expensive product when it gets less effective after about 6 months.
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/buying-insulin-from-canada.203498/
Check current pricing: https://rxcanada4less.com/
You can use the pens just like a vial, with syringes, so you can manage fine dosing.
We also have a Supply Closet with reputable dealers that members buy Lantus through.

Thanks for the info! $125 is more doable, I also found a coupon that can be used for pet purposes I will see how much they are selling for here locally. I am also reaching out to a friend who has vet connections in Mexico to see how much it is down there. We have to try everything, right?

https://www.petdrugcard.com/lantus-coupon.html

 

[Idjit's mom]

Thanks for the info! $125 is more doable, I also found a coupon that can be used for pet purposes I will see how much they are selling for here locally. I am also reaching out to a friend who has vet connections in Mexico to see how much it is down there. We have to try everything, right?

https://www.petdrugcard.com/lantus-coupon.html

You are very welcome. I sincerely hope that if a change is made that Sapphire will respond very positively and the sugar dance will be much less like The Charleston and more like a waltz.