Help for Molly #2

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That 20.6 is a direct result of the big drop she had as well as not getting insulin this AM. I'm glad you get that extra test done. You can hold off until PMPS now.
 
Adrienne Vanderhoning said:
Ok, what dose do I give her tonight? Should I leave a little bit of kibbles in her dish tonight? Like a little handful
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Give her only 1 unit tonight. This is your new dose for the next few days while you complete the food transition. We don't know yet if it's her "good dose" but it *should* be low enough for the food changeover. You could try giving her a snack of wet food with a few kibbles on top before you go to bed yourself. The goal is to get her off kibble so the less you can get away with the better.

Re hitting the vein when doing a BG test: it can happens sometimes and they feel it more plus it bleeds quite a bit. Try aiming for "almost falling off the edge" of her ear.

Make sure to get a PMPS tonight even though she didn't have insulin this AM - more practice for each of you. ;)
 
Oh wow! I missed all the excitement as I was out all day today and am just now catching up. Delighted to see that lower BG today. I can see how this might seem concerning Adrienne, especially when her BG went back up later but that lower BG is exactly what we were aiming to see and the higher numbers are to be expected after the lower BG right now. I see Kris advised dropping the dose to 1u and I agree completely. The change of food is definitely helping Molly's BG come down and you are making great progress with her! :D
 
Hi Adrienne, my cat was diagnosed a week before yours, and his BG numbers resemble Molly's. Only been testing about a week, (vet recommended not testing to begin with, so as not to stress me and Riley. I then ordered the Pet Test Advocate meter off Amazon, and it was delayed with the snow storm). Anyway, I'm doing my first curve today to see if it's ok to increase his insulin from 2 to 2.5 starting tomorrow. I last increased it from 1.5 to 2 a week ago. If I've read correctly, this should be ok. I've also finally eliminated dry food, it's been a few days now and I think both cats are getting used to only wet food, (I was told to keep giving some dry for dental health). It's a slow and nerve-wrecking experience; I'm so grateful for the guidance on this forum. Best of luck on your journey with Molly. Let's hope we both get them regulated soon
 
Jake and Riley said:
Hi Adrienne, my cat was diagnosed a week before yours, and his BG numbers resemble Molly's. Only been testing about a week, (vet recommended not testing to begin with, so as not to stress me and Riley. I then ordered the Pet Test Advocate meter off Amazon, and it was delayed with the snow storm). Anyway, I'm doing my first curve today to see if it's ok to increase his insulin from 2 to 2.5 starting tomorrow. I last increased it from 1.5 to 2 a week ago. If I've read correctly, this should be ok. I've also finally eliminated dry food, it's been a few days now and I think both cats are getting used to only wet food, (I was told to keep giving some dry for dental health). It's a slow and nerve-wrecking experience; I'm so grateful for the guidance on this forum. Best of luck on your journey with Molly. Let's hope we both get them regulated soon
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I would recommend increasing by only 0.25 u at a time. Are you using U40 insulin syringes or a vet pen for the insulin? Getting rid of all dry food is definitely the way to go.
 
MrWorfMen's Mom said:
Oh wow! I missed all the excitement as I was out all day today and am just now catching up. Delighted to see that lower BG today. I can see how this might seem concerning Adrienne, especially when her BG went back up later but that lower BG is exactly what we were aiming to see and the higher numbers are to be expected after the lower BG right now. I see Kris advised dropping the dose to 1u and I agree completely. The change of food is definitely helping Molly's BG come down and you are making great progress with her! :D
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She was starving this morning. I left some wet out for her. Right before I went to bed, but I think she ate it
Today I’m still giving her the dry. Only half of a half cup. Give her the other half tonight. I’m hoping she won’t look for the dry food.
Yes it was a stressful day yesterday
 
Jake and Riley said:
Hi Adrienne, my cat was diagnosed a week before yours, and his BG numbers resemble Molly's. Only been testing about a week, (vet recommended not testing to begin with, so as not to stress me and Riley. I then ordered the Pet Test Advocate meter off Amazon, and it was delayed with the snow storm). Anyway, I'm doing my first curve today to see if it's ok to increase his insulin from 2 to 2.5 starting tomorrow. I last increased it from 1.5 to 2 a week ago. If I've read correctly, this should be ok. I've also finally eliminated dry food, it's been a few days now and I think both cats are getting used to only wet food, (I was told to keep giving some dry for dental health). It's a slow and nerve-wrecking experience; I'm so grateful for the guidance on this forum. Best of luck on your journey with Molly. Let's hope we both get them regulated soon
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Hi Jake,
My vet only wanted me to test once a week. Not to change her food. Wanted me to increase her insulin to 6 units. I’m very happy I have found the message to advise on what to do for Molly. It’s been stressful I didn’t realize that it would be.
I’m not sure what I’m going to tell my vet. Now that Molly is on 1 unit and is transitioning over to a low carb food.
Molly is having a hard time, she loves her dry food. Although I have cut her back quite a bit.
Good luck with your curve today. I’m still learning at that. Best of luck to you and Riley! Keep us posted on your progress!
 
I see the pink this AM. That's not bad considering she had no AM dose yesterday and she was in black at PMPS last night. Many kitties adore kibble but so long as Molly is willing to eat the wet food don't worry. More wet, less dry will get you where she needs to be BG-wise. Try substituting more of the freeze dried chicken as a treat. You WILL get there.

Re your vet: if you have to discuss her progress at some point, you have a spreadsheet of dropping BG levels to prove that the S/O wet/dry diet was causing the high, flat BG numbers and ever increasing insulin doses. The proof is in the pudding as they say. Keep adding water to Molly's wet food meals to promote good hydration and keep her peeing well.

Vets try hard to do the right thing but they aren't all well informed on how to treat feline diabetes. Mine is a general practice vet but has an interest in FD so she was more ahead of the curve than most. She told me a lot of the right things for Teasel: start at 1 u twice a day, remove all dry food from his diet and feed only low carb wet food (he'd been on S/O for a very long time), test his BG at home, etc. However, I wasn't told to test before every shot but to only do a curve every 7 to 10 days in the beginning. Dose increases of 0.5 u were recommended. Over many months I learned that didn't work. I was no further ahead than at the start. Once I came here and did things the FDMB way, I discovered why I had gotten nowhere and learned how very complicated Teasel is.

Hang in there! :)
 
Kris & Teasel said:
I see the pink this AM. That's not bad considering she had no AM dose yesterday and she was in black at PMPS last night. Many kitties adore kibble but so long as Molly is willing to eat the wet food don't worry. More wet, less dry will get you where she needs to be BG-wise. Try substituting more of the freeze dried chicken as a treat. You WILL get there.

Re your vet: if you have to discuss her progress at some point, you have a spreadsheet of dropping BG levels to prove that the S/O wet/dry diet was causing the high, flat BG numbers and ever increasing insulin doses. The proof is in the pudding as they say. Keep adding water to Molly's wet food meals to promote good hydration and keep her peeing well.

Vets try hard to do the right thing but they aren't all well informed on how to treat feline diabetes. Mine is a general practice vet but has an interest in FD so she was more ahead of the curve than most. She told me a lot of the right things for Teasel: start at 1 u twice a day, remove all dry food from his diet and feed only low carb wet food (he'd been on S/O for a very long time), test his BG at home, etc. However, I wasn't told to test before every shot but to only do a curve every 7 to 10 days in the beginning. Dose increases of 0.5 u were recommended. Over many months I learned that didn't work. I was no further ahead than at the start. Once I came here and did things the FDMB way, I discovered why I had gotten nowhere and learned how very complicated Teasel is.

Hang in there! :)
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How often should I feed her the fancy feast? I gave her some of the SO wet this morning. Maybe I shouldn’t have done that.
I think my vet is more concerned, not changing her food. Where she had crystals in the past. But I read some where maybe on one of the forums here. Royal Canine can cause the crystals, asthma and diabetes. All three things Molly has had or has. She’s been on Royal Canine since a kitten then to the SO.
I’ll send the SS to my vet see what he says. But she is my cat and my husbands lol. We want to do what’s best for her!
She’s more playful this morning!
 
Adrienne Vanderhoning said:
How often should I feed her the fancy feast? I gave her some of the SO wet this morning. Maybe I shouldn’t have done that.
I think my vet is more concerned, not changing her food. Where she had crystals in the past. But I read some where maybe on one of the forums here. Royal Canine can cause the crystals, asthma and diabetes. All three things Molly has had or has. She’s been on Royal Canine since a kitten then to the SO.
I’ll send the SS to my vet see what he says. But she is my cat and my husbands lol. We want to do what’s best for her!
She’s more playful this morning
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The switch to Fancy Feast from the SO only needs to be tempered by Molly's reaction. We recommend a slow transition to avoid any GI upset from diet change. If Molly likes the Fancy Feast, then mix that and a bit of SO together and keep reducing the SO by a little every day or 2 until she if off the SO. As long as Molly isn't having any GI issues, you can give her the Fancy Feast as you like.
The fact that Molly is more playful is a great sign. Sometimes we get hung up on the BG numbers but observations of kitty regaining their former energy and past playful behaviour are important too. She is obviously feeling better and that is just what you are aiming to achieve and says a lot about the progress you are making! :D
 
A similar pink this AM to yesterday's AM. The goal for now is to see how she settles on that 1 u dose during the food switch. Once she's off all high carb food we can assess it properly and decide whether it needs to stay as is or be nudged up in 0.25 u increments.

I'll bet you're feeling more confident about testing even if Miss Molly isn't a fan. ;)
 
Kris & Teasel said:
A similar pink this AM to yesterday's AM. The goal for now is to see how she settles on that 1 u dose during the food switch. Once she's off all high carb food we can assess it properly and decide whether it needs to stay as is or be nudged up in 0.25 u increments.

I'll bet you're feeling more confident about testing even if Miss Molly isn't a fan. ;)
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I'm finding it hard to get her off the dry food. She looks for it and the morning testing is the hardest, she won't sit still but I manage to get it. I wrap her in a blanket and not sure what I'm going to tell my vet. I noticed Molly isn't drinking as much?
 
Adrienne Vanderhoning said:
I'm finding it hard to get her off the dry food. She looks for it and the morning testing is the hardest, she won't sit still but I manage to get it. I wrap her in a blanket and not sure what I'm going to tell my vet. I noticed Molly isn't drinking as much?
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Try substituting small snacks of Fancy Feast when she seems hungry. Give her a little snack of that immediately before her AM test. Getting them off dry food can be challenging and it's a case of retraining their eating habits. @MrWorfMen's Mom's diabetic kitty was a die hard kibble girl. She might have more advice for you.

Not drinking as much goes along with getting her BG lower. It's a good sign. :)
 
Kris & Teasel said:
Try substituting small snacks of Fancy Feast when she seems hungry. Give her a little snack of that immediately before her AM test. Getting them off dry food can be challenging and it's a case of retraining their eating habits. @MrWorfMen's Mom's diabetic kitty was a die hard kibble girl. She might have more advice for you.

Not drinking as much goes along with getting her BG lower. It's a good sign. :)
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This morning she has SO wet a little bit. Then I tested her, I gave her a little of the kibble. She was still looking for food, so I gave her fancy feast diluted in water.

Ok, I just worry when she doesn't drink as much. Where she's had crystals in the past.
 
OHHHH the kibble! My girl, Menace, would not recognize wet food as being edible. She has 2 brothers who were eating wet food and she would try to bury their food like it was waste. If looks could kill, I would have dropped dead a million times holding stand offs with my girl trying to convince her that wet food was edible and if she wanted to eat that was what was on the menu.

I had been trying to transition her to wet food from 10 weeks old when she joined our family. It wasn't until just past 2 years into our diabetic journey that I caught her eating some wet food out of her brother's dish. I then, against all advice, removed the dry food cold turkey because I was convinced that if I let her have it again, she would revert back to her old ways and again completely refuse the wet food. We had a few more standoffs and I relented with a few kibble bits a few times but I did a very speedy switch compared to most. Thankfully she didn't have any GI issues.

Her one brother still loves a tiny bit of kibble for treats so I keep some on hand and sneak it to him periodically. To this day, if she hears anything that even remotely sounds like kibble (macaroni being measured for instance) she comes running hoping for a feed of her favourite food!

It's unfortunate that in Canada we do not have access to the very low carb dry food they get in the US. If we could get that, it would give us an option to satisfy that "craving" with a little snack for our kibble addicted kitties. As it stands, the lowest carb dry food we have here is about 14% carbs which is too high for our extra sweet babies.

Believe me, it breaks my heart not to be able to give her a little treat of kibble now and then but her health has to come first so I hold my ground. :)
 
Adrienne Vanderhoning said:
This morning she has SO wet a little bit. Then I tested her, I gave her a little of the kibble. She was still looking for food, so I gave her fancy feast diluted in water.

Ok, I just worry when she doesn't drink as much. Where she's had crystals in the past.
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Adding water to all wet food meals is a great way to keep her hydrated. I actually use a tablespoon to measure out Teasel's so I have a general idea of how much extra water he gets over a day. I put 3 to 4 Tbsp in every meal which turns it into a sort of soupy stew. That's 45 to 60 mL because 1 Tbsp = 15 mL. After his four daily meals he's been given anywhere from 180 to 240 mL of extra water. A one cup measure is about 250 mL.
 
MrWorfMen's Mom said:
OHHHH the kibble! My girl, Menace, would not recognize wet food as being edible. She has 2 brothers who were eating wet food and she would try to bury their food like it was waste. If looks could kill, I would have dropped dead a million times holding stand offs with my girl trying to convince her that wet food was edible and if she wanted to eat that was what was on the menu.

I had been trying to transition her to wet food from 10 weeks old when she joined our family. It wasn't until just past 2 years into our diabetic journey that I caught her eating some wet food out of her brother's dish. I then, against all advice, removed the dry food cold turkey because I was convinced that if I let her have it again, she would revert back to her old ways and again completely refuse the wet food. We had a few more standoffs and I relented with a few kibble bits a few times but I did a very speedy switch compared to most. Thankfully she didn't have any GI issues.

Her one brother still loves a tiny bit of kibble for treats so I keep some on hand and sneak it to him periodically. To this day, if she hears anything that even remotely sounds like kibble (macaroni being measured for instance) she comes running hoping for a feed of her favourite food!

It's unfortunate that in Canada we do not have access to the very low carb dry food they get in the US. If we could get that, it would give us an option to satisfy that "craving" with a little snack for our kibble addicted kitties. As it stands, the lowest carb dry food we have here is about 14% carbs which is too high for our extra sweet babies.

Believe me, it breaks my heart not to be able to give her a little treat of kibble now and then but her health has to come first so I hold my ground. :)
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I'm going to have to stop giving her the kibble. She's down to 1/2 c a day now which is good!. I sent an email off to my vet about the change in food. I'm anxious about what he's going to say. If he asked for my spreadsheet and with the data I have. Will he agree that it was or is the food?

What's the name of the food in USA?
what symptoms are for GI?
 
Kris & Teasel said:
Adding water to all wet food meals is a great way to keep her hydrated. I actually use a tablespoon to measure out Teasel's so I have a general idea of how much extra water he gets over a day. I put 3 to 4 Tbsp in every meal which turns it into a sort of soupy stew. That's 45 to 60 mL because 1 Tbsp = 15 mL. After his four daily meals he's been given anywhere from 180 to 240 mL of extra water. A one cup measure is about 250 mL.[/Q

How much of the wet do you give her? I take a couple scoops on my fork and add the water, it's soupy
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The US folks have access to Dr. Elsey's Clean Protein and Young Again. Young Again is only available online. Are you near the border such that you are considering making a trip to get some? If so just be forewarned that it is illegal to bring pet food into Canada unless you have the animal for which the food is intended in the vehicle with you when you cross the border so don't announce that you have it. I think if customs found it, they would just confiscate it.
 
MrWorfMen's Mom said:
The US folks have access to Dr. Elsey's Clean Protein and Young Again. Young Again is only available online. Are you near the border such that you are considering making a trip to get some? If so just be forewarned that it is illegal to bring pet food into Canada unless you have the animal for which the food is intended in the vehicle with you when you cross the border so don't announce that you have it. I think if customs found it, they would just confiscate it.
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No, Im not close to the border. But I have relatives in the US thought maybe they could ship it over. They might get in trouble for that!
 
Adrienne Vanderhoning said:
But I have relatives in the US thought maybe they could ship it over.
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Unfortunately, if customs gets suspicious, they will open packages and then confiscate the contents. It's ridiculous to think pet food is being treated like a national security risk but they got really sticky about this a couple of years ago to "protect" the CDN pet food industries and supposedly to ensure that any food being imported has been made according to some pretty stringent requirements that only the bigger name brands can afford to meet. So while in some ways it is comforting to know our pets are being protected from unscrupulous pet food companies, we also can't always get good quality specialty products that would help with medical situations such as diabetes. Young Again used to ship here but stopped because of the new regulations.
 
I had a lady on the FB diabetes group. Offer to send me samples of the Young again. I didn't feel comfortable with her sending it to me. My husband seems to think that there is a dry food here in Canada that is low carb for Molly. I told him that there isn't. I emailed my vet with what I have done in the past week with Molly. Decreasing her insulin etc... haven't heard back from him yet.

I wish they had the dry food her for the kitties, maybe in time they will!
 
Adrienne Vanderhoning said:
I had a lady on the FB diabetes group. Offer to send me samples of the Young again. I didn't feel comfortable with her sending it to me. My husband seems to think that there is a dry food here in Canada that is low carb for Molly. I told him that there isn't. I emailed my vet with what I have done in the past week with Molly. Decreasing her insulin etc... haven't heard back from him yet.

I wish they had the dry food her for the kitties, maybe in time they will!
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Even if you could get low carb dry food for Molly you'd want to limit the amount. Lack of water can contribute to urinary problems. The S/O food (wet and dry) has some acidifying agent in it to fight crystals so that's probably why you can get away with feeding dry S/O. The problem is that it's far too high in carbs for a diabetic and diabetes is a more immediate health concern for Molly. Diabetic cats also get dehydrated more easily because they tend to pee more. The extra glucose in their blood pulls water out of their tissues and it shows as more urine (and often more dilute urine). The kidneys have to work harder, especially when BG runs high. Cats are already prone to kidney problems as they get older.
 
Kris & Teasel said:
Even if you could get low carb dry food for Molly you'd want to limit the amount. Lack of water can contribute to urinary problems. The S/O food (wet and dry) has some acidifying agent in it to fight crystals so that's probably why you can get away with feeding dry S/O. The problem is that it's far too high in carbs for a diabetic and diabetes is a more immediate health concern for Molly. Diabetic cats also get dehydrated more easily because they tend to pee more. The extra glucose in their blood pulls water out of their tissues and it shows as more urine (and often more dilute urine). The kidneys have to work harder, especially when BG runs high. Cats are already prone to kidney problems as they get older.
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No, I'm not getting low carb dry, I changed my mind on that. I will stick to the wet SO for now. Feed her the fancy feast she loves the fancy feast. Eventually I'm hoping she won't want any of the SO dry. I going through a can of the fancy feast a day, is that about right? for feeding?
 
One can of Fancy Feast is only somewhere around 90 to 100 calories depending on flavour so depending on Molly's size, one can would not be enough if that was all she was eating. You can calculate her calorie need by multiplying her weight in lbs. X 13.6 and then add 70 for total daily calorie need. If she needs to gain or lose weight, you'd calculate using her ideal weight instead of her current weight.
 
MrWorfMen's Mom said:
One can of Fancy Feast is only somewhere around 90 to 100 calories depending on flavour so depending on Molly's size, one can would not be enough if that was all she was eating. You can calculate her calorie need by multiplying her weight in lbs. X 13.6 and then add 70 for total daily calorie need. If she needs to gain or lose weight, you'd calculate using her ideal weight instead of her current weight.
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Ok, I feed her the wet SO for breakfast and a little kibble. For lunch she had fancy feast with freeze dried treats. For supper she'll have more fancy feast and kibble after her test. I only feed her 1/2 cup of dry a day for now. She lost 3 lbs before she was diagnosed with diabetes. It looks like she has gained weight. In December she weight 10lbs when she was at the vet. I feed her the tuna fancy feast said it was 0 carbs? if I was reading it right.
 
Ok so right now she is getting calories from the SO wet, the SO dry and the Fancy Feast so she should be fine. Most food gives some calorie information on the packaging so you can roughly calculate how many calories she is currently eating. If that is maintaining her weight and she looks good (right weight) then as you reduce the dry and wet SO, you just replace them with more Fancy Feast. My girl is about 16 to 18 lbs (got to weigh her again soon) and she went through almost 3 cans a day of Fancy Feast. The carbs and calories are not the same thing. It's possible to find food that is higher in calories but still low in carbs.
 
MrWorfMen's Mom said:
Ok so right now she is getting calories from the SO wet, the SO dry and the Fancy Feast so she should be fine. Most food gives some calorie information on the packaging so you can roughly calculate how many calories she is currently eating. If that is maintaining her weight and she looks good (right weight) then as you reduce the dry and wet SO, you just replace them with more Fancy Feast. My girl is about 16 to 18 lbs (got to weigh her again soon) and she went through almost 3 cans a day of Fancy Feast. The carbs and calories are not the same thing. It's possible to find food that is higher in calories but still low in carbs.
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I find she’s more hungry today. Probably because we’ve been at work all day. I did my in the door test she’s 21.5. Her test went awesome she was really good.
 
Adrienne Vanderhoning said:
Should I increase her insulin this morning? Or do something different? @Kris & Teasel @MrWorfMen's Mom
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I'm just seeing this now, Adrienne. I'm a bit unsure what to suggest about the dose because she's still getting about half her daily food ration in high carb S/O (wet plus dry for breakfast and some dry for supper) according to your post #43 above. How about keeping 1 u for today and I'll ask @MrWorfMen's Mom for her opinion.

BTW - I was very glad to see your report of a BG test that went well. :)
 
Ok, that’s why I asked maybe eliminate the dry more or the SO wet, more FF?
I also giver her a special treat after testing. I’ll attach a pic of it.
97E8772E-D183-4DC0-90CA-24ED5F661523.jpeg
 
If the treat package says something about single ingredient protein or similar it could be OK. It looks to be one of those squeeze tubes of some sort of delicious (to Molly!) paste. I don't know the carb content of those but I suspect it's not zero. That's why we usually recommend plain freeze dried meat or fish treats that say "single ingredient" on the bag. Pure Bites brand is readily available in Pet Valu, Pet Smart, etc. Another treat you could make for her is a plain poached or roasted chicken breast (nothing added). When it's cooked cut it up into small treat sized pieces, freeze in small packages (enough for a day) and give those freely.

Re what food to eliminate: you want to get rid of the highest carb food first and that's the S/O kibble. Next is the S/O wet food. You can feed as much wet Fancy Feast as she wants/needs because it's very low carb. The goal is to have her eating only low carb wet food for all her meals and getting only low/zero carb treats. That's the optimal feeding method to control her BG and to get the best insulin response from her on a lower dose than the S/O wet-dry food she was one for years.
 
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