? Bouncy cat conversation question

[Yvonne & Andy &BJ (GA)]

I am wondering if anyone is using 2 different insulins with their cat. For example, hubby takes Lantus but also takes Novolin at mealtimes to offset food spikes. Would that help for a bouncy cat when they go high to give a small dose of N to get them down quicker? Years ago I remember using R along with PZI for a cat after they stopped making the beef/pork insulin. ?Anyone?

 

[saltycat]

Andy is still in the low dose range. 1.25u is not very much. Until his insulin requirements increased significantly, I think R would be too aggressive.

There are certain circumstances when using R is appropriate with our kitties. Using it to try to reduce a bounce IMO is not generally a good strategy. When clearing a bounce they sometimes build up some momentum and the numbers can get lower then they ideally would be. By dosing R at these times you could accelerate the momentum and end up feeding HC to keep numbers up.

When I used it, my boy was in the 30u+ range. The R would help bring the numbers down some, then the levemir would help keep the numbers in that range. I did not use it to try to reverse a bounce but rather to supplement the levemir he was getting.

 

[Yvonne & Andy &BJ (GA)]

Andy is still in the low dose range. 1.25u is not very much. Until his insulin requirements increased significantly, I think R would be too aggressive.

There are certain circumstances when using R is appropriate with our kitties. Using it to try to reduce a bounce IMO is not generally a good strategy. When clearing a bounce they sometimes build up some momentum and the numbers can get lower then they ideally would be. By dosing R at these times you could accelerate the momentum and end up feeding HC to keep numbers up.

When I used it, my boy was in the 30u+ range. The R would help bring the numbers down some, then the levemir would help keep the numbers in that range. I did not use it to try to reverse a bounce but rather to supplement the levemir he was getting.

Thank you for responding. I am just frustrated that Andy has been bouncing for the 3+ yrs I have him - trying to find a way to help him.

 

[Sienne and Gabby (GA)]

To my eyes, Andy isn't especially bouncy compared to some cats who will experience lower numbers and then wind up in numbers over 400. (I look at a lot of spreadsheets!) I also think that until you started getting all of the spot checks, it's very difficult to sort out what was going on. (I do think bouncing was likely but none of us has a crystal ball.)

It is possible to use Humulin/Novolin R in combination with Lantus. However, it's a mixed blessing. First and foremost, it's a very unforgiving insulin. You absolutely must start on a very small dose and curve for the 4 hours that it's active. If that's not possible, then don't even think about it. When I say it's unforgiving, an overdose of R can kill your cat. It's fast acting, food MUST be on board, nadir with Lantus should not overlap, and there are probably a few other things I've forgotten. If you give even a bit too much R, it can cause an even greater problem with bouncing.

What does strike me with respect to Andy's spreadsheet is that Andy likes to keep you up at night. He's one of those kitty's whose numbers are lower during the PM cycle. Your signature indicates you're following TR but it doesn't look like that's what you're doing. For example, it looks like you're holding doses for more than 6 cycles even though the nadirs are mostly above 200. When nadirs are above 200, the dose is held for 3 days/6 cycles and then increased. You may want to consider following TR more strictly unless there's a reason this isn't feasible for you.

One strategy that may help with bouncing is to try to get as much insulin into your kitty as you can and use food to keep the numbers propped up. This may mean getting a +2 or +3 test to see if numbers are heading down and then give some low carb, or if necessary, higher carb food to prevent Andy from getting a dose reduction. The more time he can spend in <200 numbers, the greater the chances that the cycle will flatten out.

 

[Yvonne & Andy &BJ (GA)]

To my eyes, Andy isn't especially bouncy compared to some cats who will experience lower numbers and then wind up in numbers over 400. (I look at a lot of spreadsheets!) I also think that until you started getting all of the spot checks, it's very difficult to sort out what was going on. (I do think bouncing was likely but none of us has a crystal ball.)

What does strike me with respect to Andy's spreadsheet is that Andy likes to keep you up at night. He's one of those kitty's whose numbers are lower during the PM cycle. Your signature indicates you're following TR but it doesn't look like that's what you're doing. For example, it looks like you're holding doses for more than 6 cycles even though the nadirs are mostly above 200. When nadirs are above 200, the dose is held for 3 days/6 cycles and then increased. You may want to consider following TR more strictly unless there's a reason this isn't feasible for you.

Thanks Sienna for responding. I thought if you get a nadir under 200 (i.e. 171 12/22;110 12/25;189 12/26 you hold for 6 cycles after that reading? I am now confused "again". When would you have increased using Andy's SS? I just don't get it.

One reason we are up all night is we are on an 8:45-8:45 schedule for the holidays due to being away during the day. I will be switching back to a 6:30-6:30 schedule after Jan 1.

One strategy that may help with bouncing is to try to get as much insulin into your kitty as you can and use food to keep the numbers propped up. This may mean getting a +2 or +3 test to see if numbers are heading down and then give some low carb, or if necessary, higher carb food to prevent Andy from getting a dose reduction. The more time he can spend in <200 numbers, the greater the chances that the cycle will flatten out.[/QUOTE]

This would be something to try. Will consider this after Tuesday. To start this, would I increase by .25u in am and go from there? What am# should he be to start?

 

[JoyBee&Ravan]

the dose is held for 3 days/6 cycles and then increased.

I'm still reading & trying to learn after 10 months. Her kitty got bg 46 & 36 on a dose of 1.5 units & now 55 & 52 on that dose. But you're saying it's OK to raise the dose? That has me confused?

Yvonne, if you want to see a bouncy Kitty take a look at My Ravan's SS ! He's doing a bit better right now. but he can go from 235 to 596 in less than 2 hrs! ( I keep saying he wants to be the 1st kitty on the moon )

 

[Wendy&Neko]

I thought if you get a nadir under 200 (i.e. 171 12/22;110 12/25;189 12/26 you hold for 6 cycles after that reading? I am now confused "again"

Doses with blue nadirs are held for 6-10 cycles. Period, full stop, not held for a further 6 cycles. The other thing I would really consider is getting a +2 or at worst a +3 at the night time cycle to see if you need to slow him down. Jill wrote a post on Feeding the Curve that you might want to take a look at.

Along with Wes, I too have used R, to answer your original question. It's something more commonly used by people with cats with high dose conditions or cats that have ketones in the picture. In both cases, it's a tool to get more insulin into the cat, without having to worry so much about having an even higher depot to deal with, should insulin needs change. Admittedly, once I had a good handle on using R, I did use it to help when I did a fur shot. It can be very tempting when using R to tap down bounces, but too often it leads to fast drops which makes even worse bounces.

@JoyBee&Ravan That 36 was almost two weeks ago, ancient history in looking at insulin needs. Glucose toxicity can set in faster than that.

 

[JoyBee&Ravan]

Thanks Wendy Good to know!

 

[Yvonne & Andy &BJ (GA)]

Doses with blue nadirs are held for 6-10 cycles. Period, full stop, not held for a further 6 cycles. The other thing I would really consider is getting a +2 or at worst a +3 at the night time cycle to see if you need to slow him down. Jill wrote a post on Feeding the Curve that you might want to take a look at.

@JoyBee&Ravan That 36 was almost two weeks ago, ancient history in looking at insulin needs. Glucose toxicity can set in faster than that.

Thanks Wendy - that helps - I am determined to get this right! Please keep following us!

 

[Sienne and Gabby (GA)]

@Wendy&Neko and I are saying the same thing with regard to using food to prop up numbers while at the same time, maximizing your dose. Likewise, I'd encourage you to look back over the TR sticky. If numbers aren't where you want them after 6 cycles where nadirs are usually above 200, it's time for an increase.