Help with possible bounce?

[nslade001]

Hi all, my 17 yo cat Willow was diagnosed 2 days ago (Monday) with very high numbers at vet (29.2 in am, dropped to 19.2 possible nadir after insulin. Vet wanted to put her on 3 units caninsulin twice daily but we opted for 1unit twice daily.

She's otherwise beautifully healthy (all blood work and x-rays). Good stable weight at 11 pounds.

Monday evening at home she was 12.8 Pre shot, 11.1 at +2, and 11.5 at +7.

Tuesday was beautiful, with 11.6 pre shot, then as follows:
1 unit caninsulin
+1.5 was 10.6
+3 was 9.2
+5 was 10.7
+11 was 12.1 (preshot)
1 unit caninsulin
+3 was 9.4

Today, preshot was 12.8
Then 1 unit caninsulin
******+3 was 14.4 <<< Is this a bounce?
+5 was 14.1
+11 was 8.3 (preshot)
****** No shot given because under 11.1*****
+12 was 9.1
***** Fed because it was 7½ hrs from last feeding****
+13 was 11.9

So, we're also trying to transition her to low carb as well (she's on wet with some kibble, which we immediately stopped the kibble). And she's not getting quite as much food because she's been a constant grazer, with feedings every 2 -3 hours, but now we're trying not to feed her so much the second half of the cycle and trying to figure out a new feeding routine.

Was that a bounce, and if so...Why??? Opinions? Advice?

And plan to give am shot at 8 instead of 9:30 as I don't think timing is so important since we skipped a shot. Is this right?

Sorry no spreadsheet, have to use phone and not computer savvy at all.

Lastly, this diagnosis comes as we're selling our house and moving a 12 hour drive (over 3 days) in the next week or two. Which should really not help the glucose levels.

Thanks for any help with love,
Nikki

 

[Chris & China (GA)]

Was that a bounce, and if so...Why??? Opinions? Advice?

It's just way too soon to know....it can take quite a long time to get anything resembling a pattern. We have a saying here....This is a marathon, not a sprint!

That being said, Caninsulin really isn't a great insulin for most cats. It tends to hit hard and fast and then wear off too soon.

And plan to give am shot at 8 instead of 9:30 as I don't think timing is so important since we skipped a shot. Is this right?

Right....if you skipped the shot tonight, you can shoot when you want to in the morning.

Sorry no spreadsheet, have to use phone and not computer savvy at all.

I can set up your spreadsheet for you. You'd just need to download Google Chrome, Google Drive and Google Sheets on your phone. We have lots of people who use their phones/tablets to maintain their spreadsheets. If you'd like me to set it up for you, just send me a private message by clicking on my name and choosing "start conversation"

 

[nslade001]

Thank you all so much!

So her pre shot by this morning was 12.6

I stared at my notes and hand drew a curve, and realized...

Her pre shots with the exception of last night's (following the mornings insulin bounce) have all been within a point or so of 12 :

12.8
11.6
12.1
12.8
8.3 (regulating from bounce in am?)
12.6

And I'm having a thought....

Im pretty sure we drove my cat to be a very low grade diabetic over the past possibly 6 years, since we put her on a mostly vegan (chickpea) diet (no comments please, I'm aware of all the implications and sorry we made the choice) always mixed with some wet cat food (higher carb) and a few dry kibbles twice daily.

I'm thinking that she had a very painful/ stressful "episode" in the night that drove up her glucose enough to show on a urine stick. On the morning of Saturday Nov 10 she urinated a large puddle on the floor and multiple spots of bloody urine all through the house. I collected a sample free catch, brought to the vet and ... Diagnosed as diabetic.

All her numbers on the day of her vet visits(monday) we're elevated by massive stress. When we came home that evening she dropped to "her" normal.

Also, she's had issues with her front legs being uncomfortable for a few years (vets found nothing) and she's dropped to her left wrist the past year or so, and her right wrist lowering...We put it down to an old kittenhood injury catching up/arthritis but now thinking neuropathy.

So *hopefully* the diabetes can be diet controlled eventually, and b12 might help the wrists.

Either way will monitor caninsulin hourly until her nadir today.

Any thoughts?

Thanks so much for reading, with love,
Nikki

 

[Noah & me (GA)]

As Chris said, it's too early. There is no definitive test for bouncing, it's something you see after months of looking at numbers that defy logic. My best analogy is "Seeing a fire get bigger and having the nerve to throw less water on it". Both my vets get a puzzled look on their faces if I mention either bouncing or the more clinical Somogyi effect. Give it time.

 

[Elizabeth and Bertie]

Today, preshot was 12.8
Then 1 unit caninsulin
******+3 was 14.4 <<< Is this a bounce?
+5 was 14.1
+11 was 8.3 (preshot)

Hi,
As others have said, it's really a bit early to tell..
It 'may' be a bounce, but there's no actual evidence in the data (so far) for a number might have triggered a bounce (not enough to constitute a pattern).
Might also be a food spike (from the meal a couple of hours earlier).
Might be nothing at all, just intraday variation...

That aside, you seem to be seeing a really nice response to that 1 unit of Caninsulin. Really very nice indeed for this stage of the game...
Well done for learning to hometest so quickly. Great job!

Do be aware that the blood glucose may drop as you transition to low carb food. So just keep an eye on that...

Nikki, are you using a pet meter or a human meter?

Eliz

 

[nslade001]

Hi Eliz, thanks for responding.

I'm using a human meter, the Freestyle Lite.

Yes, I'm keeping a very close eye on things as we transition to her new diet. I'm nervous of caninsulin and want to know her response (nadir), since she's fairly low anyway.

Today's numbers are also very nice! I did a curve because I wanted to track closely. I'll give her ears a break tomorrow; she's been a trooper

Amps 12.6
+1. 12.7
+2. 8.7
+3. 6.7
+4. 6.3
+5. 6.8
+7. 7.6
+9. 8.9
Pmps. 8.8

So I fed her and we're skipping tonight's shot, for the 2nd night in a row. She gets one more snack before bed.

We completely fed her low carb today, no high carb or dry.

I just need to learn how to convert the food to make sure her (Canadian) Fancy Feast Chicken Feast Pate and the (Canadian) Friskies Chefs Dinner Pate are low carb. I'm not the best with math lol and my numbers just don't seem right.

Thanks again, with love,
Nikki

 

[nslade001]

As Chris said, it's too early. There is no definitive test for bouncing, it's something you see after months of looking at numbers that defy logic. My best analogy is "Seeing a fire get bigger and having the nerve to throw less water on it". Both my vets get a puzzled look on their faces if I mention either bouncing or the more clinical Somogyi effect. Give it time.

Hi Noah thanks for your response. Yes, I tend to want the logic, and there are too many variables and it's too early. But I still *want* it lol. I need a reminder to slow down and breathe sometimes.
With love,
Nikki

 

[nslade001]

Hi,
As others have said, it's really a bit early to tell..
It 'may' be a bounce, but there's no actual evidence in the data (so far) for a number might have triggered a bounce (not enough to constitute a pattern).
Might also be a food spike (from the meal a couple of hours earlier).
Might be nothing at all, just intraday variation...

That aside, you seem to be seeing a really nice response to that 1 unit of Caninsulin. Really very nice indeed for this stage of the game...
Well done for learning to hometest so quickly. Great job!

Do be aware that the blood glucose may drop as you transition to low carb food. So just keep an eye on that...

Nikki, are you using a pet meter or a human meter?

Eliz

Hi Elizabeth, thanks for responding...
I just found the "reply" button and didn't want you to think I didn't respond! I just did so in a comment lol

 

[Elizabeth and Bertie]

Today's numbers are also very nice! I did a curve because I wanted to track closely. I'll give her ears a break tomorrow; she's been a trooper

Amps 12.6
+1. 12.7
+2. 8.7
+3. 6.7
+4. 6.3
+5. 6.8
+7. 7.6
+9. 8.9
Pmps. 8.8

Lovely response to the Caninsulin there, Nikki....
Because Caninsulin 'typically' has quite a short duration (often falling far short of 12 hours) seeing a low number at the pre-shot test is atypical, and can indicate that the pancreas is doing some work of its own...

Oh, I'll tag a couple of lovely Canadians for you to see if they have any suggestions about food. @Tuxedo Mom , @MrWorfMen's Mom

Eliz

 

[MrWorfMen's Mom]

Hi Nikki,
All of the FF pates are a max of 10% carb with most between about 3-8%. The FF Chicken Pate is listed at 0% carbs on Dr. Lisa Pierson's food list. HERE is the full list of food charts including Dr. Pierson's and a short Canadian list on which there is PC Extra Meaty available at Loblaws, Loblaws Superstore and possibly No Frills. I know there are folks feeding Friskies here in Canada but I seem to remember a discussion a long time ago about whether the formula here was the same as that in the US for at least one flavour. Tuxedo Mom may have more info on that.

 

[nslade001]

Lovely response to the Caninsulin there, Nikki....
Because Caninsulin 'typically' has quite a short duration (often falling far short of 12 hours) seeing a low number at the pre-shot test is atypical, and can indicate that the pancreas is doing some work of its own...

Oh, I'll tag a couple of lovely Canadians for you to see if they have any suggestions about food. @Tuxedo Mom , @MrWorfMen's Mom

Eliz

Hi Elizabeth,

Thanks again. Yes, I'm a bit confused as to what to do.

I skipped last night's shot because pmps was 8.8, but fed her as her new "schedule" total equivalent 1can Fancy feast last night, then worried about how high todays BG would be.

Today's amps is 9.6 / 9.8 ( I tested twice)

So I skipped this morning's shot and fed breakfast.

Now what? My vet was all for home testing, but also said that the "problem" is many home testers take it on themselves to adjust insulin doses (which she didn't seem so happy with).

(But she also would have had me dosing at 3 units twice daily. We said we wanted to start low, she determined the starting dose "should be 2½ but we'll round it *up* to 3!!!")

Should I start a new thread for dosing advice? I skipped Tuesday night's shot, last night's, and this morning's. Also completed switching her to total low carb (I hope) food yesterday.

Also, apparently the meter I'm using (Freestyle Lite) may read a bit low on low readings, as per some other people's experience I read, possibly on this forum. Does that mean it would read low on "higher" readings in the 8-12ish range?

Thanks so much, with love,
Nikki

 

[nslade001]

Hi Nikki,
All of the FF pates are a max of 10% carb with most between about 3-8%. The FF Chicken Pate is listed at 0% carbs on Dr. Lisa Pierson's food list. HERE is the full list of food charts including Dr. Pierson's and a short Canadian list on which there is PC Extra Meaty available at Loblaws, Loblaws Superstore and possibly No Frills. I know there are folks feeding Friskies here in Canada but I seem to remember a discussion a long time ago about whether the formula here was the same as that in the US for at least one flavour. Tuxedo Mom may have more info on that.

Thanks so much for responding!
I am feeding her Fancy Feast Chicken Feast Pate with Friskies chefs dinner Pate, but have chosen to switch more to FF. Although I will also look at the PC brand now.
I wasn't sure if the ff formulation was the same in Canada as the one the chart is based on in the states?
Thanks for the link as well
With love,
Nikki

 

[MrWorfMen's Mom]

I fed FF as do many other Canadians. The formula is the same as the US but for some reason our Canadian labels say "pate" rather than "classic". For the PC brand, check the Canadian food list because there seemed to be some question about the formula being different in different size cans for one flavour.

I used the Freestyle Lite meter and while it does read a bit low at low readings, I found that was in normal reading ranges (under roughly 6mmol) and comparing against a pet meter. At those low ranges, getting a warning of low numbers earlier rather than later means you can take action sooner so it's a good thing. At higher ranges, I wouldn't be concerned. The difference is negligible and high is high.

It would be a great idea to start a new thread HERE in the Caninsulin forum. I know you are using a phone but it would be very helpful if you could set up a SS to track your BG test results as we rely on that info to offer dosing advise. It's very easy to use and if you need assistance to set it up, just holler.

 

[nslade001]

Thanks again! I will post there this afternoon, thanks for the link. And for the reassurance for my meter
I hope to get to the library to start a spreadsheet today, and will definitely call out if I need help!
With love,
Nikki

 

[Noah & me (GA)]

Nova Scotia? You didn't go to the "Big Red School" did you? Peggy's Cove was a tourist trap the day we were there, the school was more fun.
My name is Dickson, Noah was my last sugar cat. It's no big deal. Now don't be a Canadian and say "sorry". I'm sorry for saying that, sorry. Sorry everyone!
Really sorry!!! Crap, I promised not to do that, SORRY!

 

[nslade001]

Nova Scotia? You didn't go to the "Big Red School" did you? Peggy's Cove was a tourist trap the day we were there, the school was more fun.
My name is Dickson, Noah was my last sugar cat. It's no big deal. Now don't be a Canadian and say "sorry". I'm sorry for saying that, sorry. Sorry everyone!
Really sorry!!! Crap, I promised not to do that, SORRY!

I'm sorry, I don't know what you're talking about?!

 

[nslade001]

So, thanks to everyone for your help!
I went to the library and *think* I started my spreadsheet properly; would someone mind checking it and let me know if it's up?

I'm going to post a new thread in the caninsulin forum that mrworfman's mom linked to, as willow didn't get a shot last night or this morning due to lowish BG levels, and it's looking like tonight is following the same trend of lower than 11.1

Posted http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...d-skipping-too-many-shots-please-help.206579/

And I need advice because I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing lol.
With love,
Nikki

 

[Noah & me (GA)]

There's a gigantic red wooden school south of Sydney that can be seen for miles. After seeing it we mentioned it to our waitress the next day and she told us that was her high school. You know the story (myth) about Canadians being so polite, part of that is saying "sorry" 20 times a day. Sorry about that.

 

[nslade001]

Lol, I was trying to be funny. Now *I* want to apologize, but can't!

 

[Noah & me (GA)]

Now I remember! The Lunenberg Academy! It was almost 20 years ago so the "red" part fooled my memory. Still a pretty nice school isn't it?
Nova Scotia people are the friendliest, the last time I got to sit in the jump seat of an airliner before 911. Loads of fun.