9/30 - Frosty - Just when I think it’s the end, he surprises me. End of life discussion. AMPS 368

[Ana & Frosty (GA)]

Yesterday he ate a little for dinner to my surprise. I think he was so hungry from not eating all day that he forced himself to eat a little. I have him gabapentin for pain instead of buprenex at 9:30 bc I thought bupe may have been making his nausea worse , and he was completely out after that. I kept checking his sugar and it was consistently in the 300s, which was odd because i gave him his usual 2 units despite his poor appetite, since ketones were up to 1.3 on the blood meter with the 1 unit. I was thinking that maybe he’s dehydrated and so that’s why the sugar kept being high. I also noticed he hasn’t been drinking much water - just sitting over his bowl but not actually drinking it. Probably nauseous.

I woke up 1 am and I was up for 2 hours, I couldn’t sleep. I figured maybe the right thing to do was to take him to the vet today, and if he was really dehydrated and his kidneys were failing and he was just getting worse, maybe we would just put him down. I figured I could bring him in a towel so I didn’t have to put him in the carrier again. My biggest fear was that he has a seizure or something from all the toxic substances building up in his blood while I was at work. Syringe feeding him just wasn’t an option. I give credit to those who can do it, but I believe his quality of life, as well as mine, would be significantly affected. I don’t want to keep him alive at all costs. I already promised him there would be no heroic measures, no more hospital trips, no feeding tubes, etc. That’s what I would want for myself if I was even seriously ill with multiple medical problems complicating my condition.

A little side discussion... working in a general surgery group (and even when I worked in thoracic), we are often asked to put feeding tubes in patients who can’t eat because of cancer. A lot of the times the patients have very advanced cancer, and even though the family holds on to hope, we as providers KNOW this person isn’t gonna make it. It really sucks to have to take him to the operating room and do an invasive procedure on patients like that. I hate it. I know it’s what the family wants, and we often discuss the alternative - hospice, making them comfortable - but many times the family insists, and a lot of the time the oncologist backs them up. That is the least favorite part of my job. I feel like it’s not the right thing to do to someone who is so ill and has suffered so much. Most doctors you will ask wouldn’t do half the things to themselves that they do to their patients. Most health providers agree that if we get advanced cancer, we will stop practicing, and go on a tropical vacation. There was even an article published by a physician a few years ago called “How Doctors Die.” It’s very different than how the general population dies. This may be a morbid discussion for some, but being a healthcare provider, I am exposed to death, or near death a lot and have to think about these things. It is also my responsibility to first do no harm. Even if it mesns doing nothing.

And in reality, all of us should think about it. Even if it makes us uncomfortable or emotional. That’s normal. It is an unpleasant thing to think or talk about. But what’s important is to do the right thing for ourselves and our loved ones when the time comes. Personally, I spend most of my days in a hospital working, so I don’t want to die in one.

So this was my plan for Frosty. I wanted to do the same thing with him as I would want done to me. I also thought that well, even if we get through this episode, we might get a good week or two, and then what? Back to this again? Can we really significantly prolong his life with all these problems (months to years?) Or are we just gaining a week while putting both of us through physical and emotional torture.

But then, Frosty got up and came into the guest room and started drinking water from the kitty fountain. Like actually drinking and not just sitting over it. Then he came over to me to I offered him treats. He ate them. Okayyy..... maybe some hope? But then he went to lay in the hallway and wouldn’t move for hours. I fell back asleep.

I woke up a half hour late to feed everyone. Walk into the office where Frosty eats, and he’s helping himself to last night’s FF that’s still out. Someone decided it was time for breakfast and he was gonna have some, whether mommy was up or not!

I started opening cans to feed the other 2 cats, and he came into their room to see what’s going on! I think he might have meowed once. So I added another half can to his bowl. He maybe ate a total of 1/2-3/4 of a can then went back to lay in the hallway. Still though, progress,

I feel back asleep instead of going to yoga, woke up at 11 and he’s munching on his sister’s FF in the guest room where I slept (I wanted to be closer to him). My civvie Bella was NOT happy about sharing. Alright Frost, I hear ya loud and clear. No vet visit today.

Now he’s laying in the guest room on the floor with me and my 2 civvies. That’s also unusual bc he usually lays in the hallway, bathroom, or under the desk when he’s ill. Now he’s being semi social. I guess he must be feeling s little better today.

I didn’t give him any pain meds yet today because I’m not sure if I should. Both bupe and gaba are very sedating for him, and it’s hard to tell if he’s feeling sick or is just under effect of the meds. I also think bupe might make him more nauseous, while gaba in my opinion acts on totally different pain receptors that are involved in pancreatitis. I also felt that gaba totally knocked him out. Although he did eat and drink a few hours after he got it.

I hope his sugars go down today. I don’t know if that’s dehydration, the fact that the depot is messed up with 2 lower shots in the last 6 cycles, or maybe just higher sugars due to his cushing’s not being controlled.

Tomorrow I gotta call his IM vet to ask what to do with his new big skin tear. It’s 2x3 cm in size and it looks like the top layer of the skin just peeled apart with raw pink tissue underneath. My poor guy!!

I’m gonna take him outside again today bc it’s nice and sunny. Dan is home today which is great, he can play with the dog and I can watch Frosty. Some fresh air would be good for all of us.

Thanks again, everyone, for all your advice and support.

EDIT: pics: 1 Pumpkin putting Bella in her place for being s hissy b*atch 2 Frosty laying on the floor with us

 

[Chubba (GA)]

 

[Idjit's mom]

Ana, my heart breaks for you. I have been reading all your posts and it's so hard sometimes not to just want to reach through the screen and hug you. This is so very difficult to reach the ending of the journey, and you are being so intelligent and caring about these last steps. I honor your intention not to keep Frosty beyond his endurance, and your comments about how many people do this to human loved ones, as well as our beloved fur family members is definitely food for thought. I agree wholeheartedly with you. I wish you didn't have to make this decision, but you do and I wish there was a way to lessen the grief and pain you feel now and will feel in future. We are not physically with you, but we all walk beside you.

 

[Leah]

I'm going to ditto Idjit's Mom, and add that I really feel what you're saying. My mom was a lifelong RN, and when she got lung cancer, she just went and did what she wanted, minus some palliative radiation. She went out the way she wanted, no heroic measures. My 11 year old and I were talking about how we are kinder to animals than we are to humans, just this morning (He's worried about a sick pet we know, so we talked about euthanasia and how kind it can be when it's time).

You're going to do the right thing when the time comes, and Frosty will let you know when that is. Hugs.

 

[Ana & Frosty (GA)]

I'm going to ditto Idjit's Mom, and add that I really feel what you're saying. My mom was a lifelong RN, and when she got lung cancer, she just went and did what she wanted, minus some palliative radiation. She went out the way she wanted, no heroic measures. My 11 year old and I were talking about how we are kinder to animals than we are to humans, just this morning (He's worried about a sick pet we know, so we talked about euthanasia and how kind it can be when it's time).

You're going to do the right thing when the time comes, and Frosty will let you know when that is. Hugs.

I give you SO MUCH credit for talking to your son about this. So many parents don’t - mine didn’t. I have never even gone to a grandparents funeral because my parents wanted to shield me from it. Well, now I’m 33 and I have to learn how to handle death on my own. My sister, who is a physician herself, struggles with fear and anxiety about death of pets and loved ones that seriously affects her every day life. Even though she’s a doctor!

I think it’s so important to talk to kids about it, that it’s ok, it’s going to happen but it doesn’t have to be painful or scary, for both animals or people. And that it’s ok to miss your loved ones, but to also know that they were very sick and sometimes being sick can be worse. I know in religious families they talk about the concept of heaven which may be comforting for some, but my one friend and I who are not were recently talking about how we would talk about death to our children. And she said that she would explain to her daughter (who is only 2 now so she’s too young) that you become part of the earth and are reborn in another way, as flowers and trees. I’m sure there’s books and all types of advice out there on how to talk to kids about things like that, and when i have children, I will definitely research it. I don’t want my kids to have anxiety about it. Yes, it’s unpleasant and sad, and painful, but it’s part of life so we have no choice. I just hope that they can deal with it in the healthiest way.

 

[Tuxedo Mom]

When my late husband had terminal lung cancer we had some long soul to soul talks. He was too sick for chemo ( he ended up with pneumonia just before chemo was to start), but had 2 weeks or radiation. He said he was done with 'treatments' and all they were doing was destroying what little time he had left. He said "if this is good as it's going to get and I can't get any better QOL then I don't want to even try and more" Three days later he was gone and although my heart was broken it was a relief that he wouldn't have to suffer any more.

Cushing's takes a huge toll on the body and with Frosty's other conditions coming into play now, he is fighting hard. Tuxie had some really bad days when I thought the end was NOW, then would rally again and be more of his old self. Eventually, the bad days became more often and the good days fewer and farther apart, until he 'told' me he was too tired to fight any more.

Enjoy and relish each good day. You know your Frosty better than anyone else in the world and you are very in tune to him. Listen to him...he will tell you when the time is drawing close. Praying that there will be many more good days ahead for you both.

 

[Olive & Paula]

Sometimes when you come to terms with it, they show you otherwise.

I worked in long term care, before hospice and keeping a person comfortable. So I also saw many who had procedures when there was no hope of improvement. Mostly it was family who couldn't say stop, no more or be responsible for making the decision hoping a cure would be found in a month or two. Also doctors who thought they were God and could save them. And then there's the liability by law of not providing life saving measures the family wants done.

I had to convince my father (not easy at all) that my mother had been through enough, there wasn't anything more that could be done. and her mind would never come back. It was time to let nature takes its course.

Now I've had to make that decision regarding my dad. His mind is mostly alert. He can physically get around with a walker, but the heart has taken a beating. You don't transplant on an 88 yr old. I'm at peace with it but more importantly I can live with myself making that decision. That is the most important factor, being able to live with the decision you make. No what ifs.

 

[JoyBee&Ravan]

I didn’t give him any pain meds yet today because I’m not sure if I should.

My Ravan is 16 yrs old & was diagnosed with Stage 2 Kidney disease & Pancreatitis recently ( he's had diabetes for 8 months also. )I know most people don't agree with me but i prefer not to give meds if at all possible. I think the meds are what makes them feel nauseated Then they get another med for the nausea! And before you know it they're taking 5 -6 pills! The only thing he gets are 5 drops of CBD oil for nausea & pain & it definitely helps his appetite. ( some days i skip the CBD oil )
He also gets Calcitriol for his kidneys 2 times a week. It's oral. a nano dose that he doesn't seem to mind at all.
This morning he was actually playing with a catnip toy outside & wrestling with his sister Peggy Sue. My 2 other cats have health issues also. He sleeps a lot & some days are not as good as others.But today is a good day. I'd say the quality of his life is just fine!

I come from a family of people that did not take meds if at all possible. My mom died a few yrs ago she was 89 & died reading her bible in her own bed. ( she made me promise ,"NO MORE Hospitals, she wanted to die at home) )I'm 72 & do not take any meds ( I was diagnosed with a major heart blockage 2 yrs ago & refused an angiogram & stents.) Instead I started exercising( walking a lot) ,lost weight & quit eating dairy products & other junk food . Most days i feel pretty good. ( I also told my boys, NO Hospital when my time comes)

I'm curious why you don't give Frosty Ringers Sub Q if he's dehydrated? I give Peggy Sue some a few times a week & she feels a lot better when I do. In the past I had kitties die at home & discovered that if I gave them Ringers each day they seemed to have a more peaceful death.I've been told when they get dehydrated it can cause painful muscle cramps.The Ringer can flush the toxins out of his body. I warm up the solution in a bucket of hot water & she seems to enjoy it. It only takes 10-15 mins & I brush her while she gets her fluids.

It sounds to me like Frosty is doing pretty good. Maybe he perked up because of less meds? All we can do is take one day at a time. We all do the best we can to help our kitty companions. I hope some of what I shared might help you & Frosty.

Enjoy the Day!

 

[Bronx's dad (GA)]

So nice to hear Frosty is feeling better today . They say kitties will tell you when it's time, and sounds like he is telling you he is ok today.

 

[Phoebes (GA)]

It's so important to talk about the end of life. It's scary and overwhelming enough at the end for most, why not talk about it while you can still make the choice. I worked in hospice for 5 years before getting injured and unable to work anymore. In those 5 years I was with and helped 287 people onto their next journey. I feel very honored to have been there. It took little pieces of me, but I learned what is important at the end. I learned what I will not have done to me or for me when the time is near. I believe our babies deserve the same care and thoughts. I learned, they're not dying because they are not eating, they are not eating because they are dying. It's stuck with me and is one of the hardest choices to make. Boy if our babies could speak to us in human ways. But it's a harder decision to make because they speak to our hearts. With their own. I don't see a Frosty who is ready to go. His pic is so beautiful. Sorry I think I rambled. I think I had a point when I started. Sorry brain fart. here are those instead.

 

[Wendy&Neko]

Ana, I am sorry you are going through this emotional roller coaster time. I remember well the ups and downs, when the good days were very good and cherished. I am also glad you are having good weather and can get Frosty outdoors. Neko's last days were weeks of gray and rain. Typical November here. Anyway, the sun finally broke through and Neko got her last days in the sunny solarium. It was time. As others have said, I hope you get that clear sign from Frosty. Although sad, it lets you have peace with the decision. It's on his terms, not yours. And I am hoping for many more good days for Frosty.

For others reading, I do want to add my opinion on feeding tubes. I do think you have to take into consideration the circumstances and prognosis. We have seen some DKA kitties here get a feeding tube, get over the DKA and have years of life after. On another group, I have seen small cell lymphoma kitties need a feeding tube, then start eating again and go into remission once the meds start working. The tubes do have their place. However, when my IM vet suggested it to me, and I decided my acromegalic, kidney failure, heart failure, small cell lymphoma cat did not warrant a tube. Like you Ana, I was considering the prognosis. I was lucky that I have had some experience fostering a hepatic lipidosis Maine Coon for our local shelter, so felt comfortable with assist feeding. Most often, getting just a little food in her tummy helped Neko feel better and she would eat the rest on her own. She didn't enjoy the process, and neither did I, but we just did little bits at once. I didn't have to do it every day.

My word on pain meds, Neko felt MUCH better on them, she was lethargic and withdrawn without her bupe, up playing and interacting on it. It's a matter of getting a dose that helps and is not too much. I too would rather not give or takes meds if I don't have to. Every time my 96 year old mother is in the ER, I have to keep explaining to incredulous staff that yes, her only meds are Tylenol arthritis and vitamins. She just has brittle bones.

@JoyBee&Ravan Ana doesn't give fluids, Frosty has a heart condition. Same predicament I had. Fluids can kill a heart kitty.

 

[JoyBee&Ravan]

@JoyBee&Ravan Ana doesn't give fluids, Frosty has a heart condition. Same predicament I had. Fluids can kill a heart kitty.

I didn't realize that . Thank you or telling me.

 

[Ana & Frosty (GA)]

I'm curious why you don't give Frosty Ringers Sub Q if he's dehydrated?

Good question. Last time we gave Frosty fluids (IV) he went into congestive heart failure and we discovered he has a rare, and the worst kind of heart disease (restrictive cardiomyopathy). So fluids aren’t a good option for him. Last time his lungs got flooded and he was having difficulty breathing. Then we added 3 heart meds - one of which was a diuretic to remove extra fluid. So kinda like you said, we treated him and caused more problems that required THREE more pills. Oh plus potassium too because lasix depletes potassium. So 4 new meds!

What I did was stop all his heart meds and figured the extra fluid he’s not peeing out will help him stay hydrated longer. But yes, I do agree that sometimes, less is more, especially for our kitties. Our IM vet, regular vet, and the ER vets we have seen 3 weeks ago all agree with my approach. My IM vet even said during one of our last convos, “It’s not like you can tell them, ‘hey, just hang in there for the next few days and it will get better.’” They don’t understand what is happening, and may be scared and upset when we come at them with all these meds.

When I did research on home euthanasia for animals 3 weeks ago when Frosty almost died last time, there is a great video from one of the founders of “laps of love” where she explains what they do and why they do it. I highly recommend that website and their educational materials for those who may ever need to make the difficult decision, or even those who want to educate themselves now for the future.

I also wanna add that my childhood cat died naturally when he was 17 about 4-5 years ago, We think he had some GI cancer and my sister basically gave him prednisone and fluids at home to treat the symptoms. However, he sadly died naturally at home and it was horrifying for both my sister and her niw husband the way it happened. I won’t give details, but she said she knows she waited too long and wish she hasn’t. I just hope I can identify when the right time is to prevent severe suffering, as natural death is not always “peacefully in his sleep”. My biggest fear is he will be in distress while I’m not home. I hope we will really KNOW when it’s time bc I now thought it was time twice but he told me no.

I appreciate everyone for participating in this discussion. I think it’s super important.

 

[JoyBee&Ravan]

as natural death is not always “peacefully in his sleep”.

I agree. Over the years I had 2 that had a very difficult time. It seemed like it took hours but it was really only mins while i held them. Very stressful. (I couldn't have got them to the vet in time.)
A few years ago i had the vet come to the house. I thought it was time. She gave my cat a shot & said it would stop his heart. an hour later he was still alive. Another shot. This went on for a few hours. Horrible experience.
The female vet was actually crying said this had never happened before! To this day I feel terrible guilt that the cat was fighting it & if he was that strong it was NOT his time to go.

We try our best to do the right thing but it sometimes seems not to be our decision. (This type of thing happened twice. It wasn't time yet for them to leave)

 

[Ana & Frosty (GA)]

. I learned, they're not dying because they are not eating, they are not eating because they are dying.

Yes, exactly. And there’s reasons for that too. without our interference with fluids or meds, starvation causes ketosis, which is actually a euphoric state, so the animals or people actually feel more comfortable and better if they are dying and we aren’t giving them fluids or food.

Ana, I am sorry you are going through this emotional roller coaster time.

For others reading, I do want to add my opinion on feeding tubes. I do think you have to take into consideration the circumstances and prognosis. We have seen some DKA kitties here get a feeding tube, get over the DKA and have years of life after. On another group, I have seen small cell lymphoma kitties need a feeding tube, then start eating again and go into remission once the meds start working. The tubes do have their place.

Totally, completely agree! If frosty only had diabetes and pancreatitis, and this was all new then I may have considered it. But with Cushing’s causing probably long standing diabetes and probably severe pancreatitis with pancreas looking totally abnormal huge and with many cysts on US, AND heart disease on top of it... and not knowing his history too, it just doesn’t seem right. Who knows, he may have had these problems for years. My IM vet and my bf both think his previous owner may have known about these issues and dumped him in Central Park. I personally don’t bc I just can’t believe someone would do that, but all those things considered, I think the poor guy deserves a break and not a feeding tube.

What makes me hesitant to assist feed is not only how upset and distressed he gets when I give him liquid or solid meds, but when I put his food down yesterday in front of him, he got rly nauseous and threw up. I just don’t wanna force it on him if he’s nauseous and cause him to vomit. It’s so sad. I wouldn’t want someone to do that to me either. I think given all this poor guy has gone through he deserves to be left alone if he doesn’t feel well.
But yes, I agree that if it’s a younger healthier cat and prognosis is good and they have a high likelyhood to recover, then a feeding tube can be a good TEMPORARY solution. Not to live the rest of their life laying lifelessly only to be kept alive with a tube. I have seen so many elderly people like that who live in nursing homes.

Frosty was a little lethargic after he ate so I gave him bupe. He then passed out so I put him in the window. He seems to be enjoying it. I think the meds do knock him out but I hope it’s taking away pain if he has it. If he does have pancreatitis or maybe cancer he must have some pain. Better lethargic from pain meds than from pain I guess! He doesn’t perk up either way. I gave it early so hopefully most of it will be out of the system by dinner bc he seems to eat better without it

 

[Ana & Frosty (GA)]

A few years ago i had the vet come to the house. I thought it was time. She gave my cat a shot & said it would stop his heart. an hour later he was still alive. Another shot. This went on for a few hours. Horrible experience.
The female vet was actually crying said this had never happened before! To this day I feel terrible guilt that the cat was fighting it & if he was that strong it was NOT his time to go.

Omg I am SO SORRY you went through that!!! Wow that’s so terrible. I don’t think you were wrong that it wasn’t the cat’s time. Sometimes medicine isn’t perfect. And sometimes animals metabolize drugs and things differently than others. It was his time and I’m sure if he was alive he wasn’t feeling any pain or anything. He was probably heavily sedated and his heart just kept going longer. I’m awfully sorry though, what a traumatic experience for both you and the poor vet!

 

[Rosie & Bailey]

Ana,
I'm so glad Frosty is doing better today, and I hope he continues to gain strength every day so that you can have more time with him. My heart aches as I read what you are going through, and my daughter and I were both brought to tears, even as we smiled looking at Frosty's photos. Thank you for having the courage to start this conversation because it is truly a super important topic to discuss, for both humans and pets. The unavoidable truth that we are all here for just a short time also reminds us of what is truly important in our lives and helps us to shift our behaviors to truly reflect our priorities. Losing my mother in law unexpectedly four years ago shocked me into emphasizing relationships over material possessions, deadlines, and schedules.

 

[Shawna & Davidson (GA)]

Ana, sorry to hear about both you and Frosty and so you’re u are in my thoughts. I didn’t read anything about when we are losing our loved ones, and Davidson’s passing was a complete shock. I had to make a decision right away, and there was no question that his quality of life was the utmost importance and at that moment I knew I made the right decision to let him fly free. I had all the money in the world to prolong his life, but it wasn’t about me and I always told Harley and Davidson that there had to be 100% guarantee that when in that situation it was about them.

It’s not been easy posting on this site after loosing Davidson, but I want to suppport all of you when I can. Yes, Davidson looked at me and his eyes said it all and Frosty will do the same for you. I’m happy you’re getting that little extra bit of time together. Cherish it, take pictures and love him like there’s no tomorrow.

Nicely written words, and thanks for sharing.

 

[Leah]

I give you SO MUCH credit for talking to your son about this. So many parents don’t - mine didn’t. I have never even gone to a grandparents funeral because my parents wanted to shield me from it. Well, now I’m 33 and I have to learn how to handle death on my own. My sister, who is a physician herself, struggles with fear and anxiety about death of pets and loved ones that seriously affects her every day life. Even though she’s a doctor!

I think it’s so important to talk to kids about it, that it’s ok, it’s going to happen but it doesn’t have to be painful or scary, for both animals or people. And that it’s ok to miss your loved ones, but to also know that they were very sick and sometimes being sick can be worse. I know in religious families they talk about the concept of heaven which may be comforting for some, but my one friend and I who are not were recently talking about how we would talk about death to our children. And she said that she would explain to her daughter (who is only 2 now so she’s too young) that you become part of the earth and are reborn in another way, as flowers and trees. I’m sure there’s books and all types of advice out there on how to talk to kids about things like that, and when i have children, I will definitely research it. I don’t want my kids to have anxiety about it. Yes, it’s unpleasant and sad, and painful, but it’s part of life so we have no choice. I just hope that they can deal with it in the healthiest way.

Thanks! When it was her time (she wanted no more food/water, just morphine. we had home health coming in twice/day) my son and I drove up to MN (We're in IL) and stayed with her (She lived with my older sister) until she passed. He and I were actually in the room when she died, and he was the first to notice (she just stopped breathing). He had just turned 8, and while I don't wish death for anyone, I think it was a really good experience for him, to see the adults in his life grieve, and that death doesn't have to be horrible. We've spoken a lot about it over the 3 years since, and when I miss her I tell him 'I'm missing Grandma today...I actually forgot she died and tried to call her'

Maybe a side effect, but he's one of the only 6th grade boys I know who will still show his mother affection in public He told me a year or so ago when I expressed surprise at it (and pleasure!) that he knows someday I'll be gone and then he'll wish he'd held my hand more

 

[Ana & Frosty (GA)]

Thanks! When it was her time (she wanted no more food/water, just morphine. we had home health coming in twice/day) my son and I drove up to MN (We're in IL) and stayed with her (She lived with my older sister) until she passed. He and I were actually in the room when she died, and he was the first to notice (she just stopped breathing). He had just turned 8, and while I don't wish death for anyone, I think it was a really good experience for him, to see the adults in his life grieve, and that death doesn't have to be horrible. We've spoken a lot about it over the 3 years since, and when I miss her I tell him 'I'm missing Grandma today...I actually forgot she died and tried to call her'

Maybe a side effect, but he's one of the only 6th grade boys I know who will still show his mother affection in public He told me a year or so ago when I expressed surprise at it (and pleasure!) that he knows someday I'll be gone and then he'll wish he'd held my hand more

WOW... that brought a tear to my eye in the middle of the Costco parking lot ... how beautiful and what an important lesson to learn so early. I think it’s important for everyone and especially men to learn that it’s OK to have feelings and that it doesn’t have to be scary and horrible, and it’s just as important to feel sadness as happiness. That it’s OK to feel sad and miss grandma, in fact it’s normal, and it’s beautiful because it means she was loved. I really hope I can teach my children these important lessons because as I said, it took way into my 30s to learn these important lessons. I may call you for advice if I have a little boy

 

[PussCatPrince - GA]

Morning Ana.
Like many others I have 'end life' tales I could share. When I think about those . When I think about where my one person cat Ty died alone away from me and home. When I read the posts above , what I see is that it is all about balance . It is about good decision making by every person involved at a time of turmoil. That doesn't always happen . For me and Ty it did not happen.

All I would say to you Ana is not to overthink this. Go with your gut instinct. Listen to yourself and Dan . Be steady. Keep Frosty comfy however you can - meds or otherwise - & trust in the three of you that you will know when Frosty begins or wishes to begin the journey of no return. That is not to make anyone cry but there is a difference between being in life, no matter how hard, and leaving.

Huge hugs Ana. You are one amazing person.

 

[Sue and Luci]

I can only say...I have tears in my eyes... I'm sorry you're going thru this...but life and death are realities aren't they...and we all will walk in your shoes or have already. It's a tough time. Know that we're all here.. take care. I believe that you will know - I knew - when it was time for my Miss Puss and Mr. Sam - I knew. It was hard...but I could not allow them to suffer any longer and did take them to the vet to do what was necessary to help them cross the bridge. They're out there under a huge oak now - and I visit regularly - we talk.

 

[Ana & Frosty (GA)]

Morning Ana.
Like many others I have 'end life' tales I could share. When I think about those . When I think about where my one person cat Ty died alone away from me and home. When I read the posts above , what I see is that it is all about balance . It is about good decision making by every person involved at a time of turmoil. That doesn't always happen . For me and Ty it did not happen.

All I would say to you Ana is not to overthink this. Go with your gut instinct. Listen to yourself and Dan . Be steady. Keep Frosty comfy however you can - meds or otherwise - & trust in the three of you that you will know when Frosty begins or wishes to begin the journey of no return. That is not to make anyone cry but there is a difference between being in life, no matter how hard, and leaving.

Huge hugs Ana. You are one amazing person.

I definitely hope not to make anyone feel and in this discussion. For all I know, here I am saying all these smart words and when it comes down to it, idk if I’m making the right decisions right now. He’s not really eating again tonight so again I’m thinking maybe I should have taken him to the vet this morning. You can plan these things all day, but you’re absolutely right. When it’s actually happening things may not work out the way you want them to. You can only TRY to do your best. But I think it’s good to think about these things so if things were to go that way either for a person or animal, you at least have through about what you may want a little bit. I remember when I first started coming here, I couldn’t even think about clicking on the “grief support” forum because it was so painful for me thinking about someone who lost their pet. Since Frosty started going downhill 3 weeka ago, I’ve visited the forum often and read a lot. And I’ve felt sad about it and cried, but it wasn’t as scary as I originally thought.

Thank you for the words on encouragement. I just hope that whatever happens he’s not in too much pain or uncomfortable.

 

[Chris & China (GA)]

This has been a wonderful thread today and an important one for people to read.

I was very lucky I guess....My mom and I discussed end of life decisions from the time I was a little girl. Being able to talk about death in a frank and honest way was always just normal for me (at least with Mom....Dad wouldn't discuss it at all)

I remember very vividly being on her big king sized bed, playing cards and talking about what she would want (and not want) when her time came.

When it comes to our beloved kitties, we have to remember that there's a distinct difference between being alive and living.

I know that when Frosty is ready to go on his final adventure, you'll know....and you'll be there for him

 

[Amanda and a Loudogg]

I completely agree Chris! I've always been open about my wishes should I be in the hospital long term and what I want done with my body afterwards. I tried to have Organ Donor put on my driving permit when I was 15, but they wouldn't let me because I was too young. I always let my parents know that I wanted to be an organ donor if something were to happen to me. My mom and I have had end of life discussions plenty of times throughout the years, especially after someone we loved passed away. For us it's just a fact of life and it's good to be prepared. My BIL thinks it's incredibly morbid, but in the heat of the moment, I think it would be helpful to already have an idea about what your loved one wants instead of trying to do what you think they may want. I've often thought humans are sometimes kinder to their animals then they are themselves. The act of euthanasia when your furkid can no longer go on can be a gift and one of the hardest, yet kindest decisions we can make. I've wondered frequently why we don't think that's okay for ourselves.

I've only had to make that decision for one kitty, my soul-kitty Mateo. His case came on quick and was severe. There was no hope. It was the hardest decision I've ever made, and although I sometimes still come to tears thinking about how fantastic he was and how short our time was together, I've never regretted making the choice to set him free. I've been following your adventures with Frosty since I came to this board. I've laughed, smiled, shared pictures and stories with Caleb, and I've felt dread with Frosty's recent turn of events. My heart hurts for you during this difficult time. Enjoy all the time you have left, and I hope whenever the time comes, you'll find peace. Just remember we're here for you!

 

[carfurby (GA)]

 

[Noah & me (GA)]

You're doing exactly the right thing Ana. I've got almost 30 years on you and it never gets easier but the decision making part does as the circle of life makes a different sense for each of us. As you know Noah has cardiomyopathy so we're in the same leaky boat. In May we had to board him for a week and I left the vet a very simple end of life statement that he completely understood and agreed with. Noah has only been out of the house 7 or 8 times in 15 years, he is that bad of a traveler. The vet that boarded him does his own blood work and has all the toys so the deal was that if it was something he could fix there go ahead as long as anesthesia was kept to a bare minimum. That's why his teeth haven't come out. If he had to travel to an emergency clinic I knew the stress of travelling and strangers would literally kill him so he was to be kept pain free and alive at the doctor's discretion. We really trust this guy.
I hope everyone here knows how Frosty came to Ana, it's a very moving story. From the minute you got here you were never the nervous newbie and I knew Frosty had the best momma ever. You're proving that now and I know it's hard, we all have our own ideas of hope, dignity and suffering. Sometimes I wonder what it is I'm doing to Noah and then he head butts the dog and demands his ice cubes. It's never the same day twice is it?
I've heard horror stories about humans and feeding tubes; ulcers, chronic heartburn etc. That's not the way I want to go.
Noah is the last of a family of six that all passed in less then three years, that's what his kind of cardiomyopathy does. And it was eight cats, a dog and finally my mom that took almost our whole home away. I'm not telling you that for pity, I need you to know I am just one of many that understand how you feel. We adopted five more in the next few years and now have a slobbering dog warming up my side of the bed. Whatever happens I hope you'll stay with us and more than anything else I hope you find the partial peace we have found. It will always hurt but there is always another paw out there waiting for you to touch.
Noah, Cynthia, Dickson and all the boys. Remember to be kind to yourself Ana.

 

[Gill & George]

Firstly

regarding feeding, you're probably already doing this, but are you raising his bowl? this can help if they are feeling icky.
Also @Ella & Rusty & Stu(GA) mentioned yesterday about finger feeding, to get them going. I found this really helpful when George wouldn't eat some months ago, I couldn't assist feed, because he was in so much pain with his mouth (horrible tooth/mouth infection) but finger feeding and spoon feeding was helpful in getting him started, he would take a couple of mouth fulls and usually then finish the rest by himself, sometimes I would spoon feed him most of his meal because he wouldn't eat from the bowl at all. I would just lie on the floor by him and spoon feed, didn't restrain him or handle him in any way, he didn't want touching/petting or holding at all because he was feeling so bad. Sometimes he wouldn't go for it, so I'd just leave him and try later, and then he would go for it.

It might be worth trying, just so you can get some calories in him, he'll let you know if he's up for a snack or not, and you can just follow his lead.

Sending vines and and scritches

 

[Pamela & Amethyst]

This is all written so beautifully I believe Frosty and all of our little ones tell us when they are ready! I am glad he is feeling better!!

 

[Ana & Frosty (GA)]

Firstly

regarding feeding, you're probably already doing this, but are you raising his bowl? this can help if they are feeling icky.
Also @Ella & Rusty & Stu(GA) mentioned yesterday about finger feeding, to get them going. I found this really helpful when George wouldn't eat some months ago, I couldn't assist feed, because he was in so much pain with his mouth (horrible tooth/mouth infection) but finger feeding and spoon feeding was helpful in getting him started, he would take a couple of mouth fulls and usually then finish the rest by himself, sometimes I would spoon feed him most of his meal because he wouldn't eat from the bowl at all. I would just lie on the floor by him and spoon feed, didn't restrain him or handle him in any way, he didn't want touching/petting or holding at all because he was feeling so bad. Sometimes he wouldn't go for it, so I'd just leave him and try later, and then he would go for it.

It might be worth trying, just so you can get some calories in him, he'll let you know if he's up for a snack or not, and you can just follow his lead.

Sending vines and and scritches

Of course I’ve tried that. When I bring the bowl to his face or finger with food on it he turns away. He is very nauseous. Sometimes he purrs when he sees food but smells it and turns away.

 

[Noah & me (GA)]

There is a great book about end of life and the things we do and maybe should not do when we know the time is coming.
Being Mortal: Medicine and What Matters in the End by Atul Gawande.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Being_Mortal
There is also a documentary about the case that drove Dr. Gawande to write the book. It's called Being Mortal and you might find it someday on PBS Frontline, their archives or maybe even YouTube.

 

[Ana & Frosty (GA)]

There is a great book about end of life and the things we do and maybe should not do when we know the time is coming.
Being Mortal: Medicine and What Matters in the End by Atul Gawande.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Being_Mortal
There is also a documentary about the case that drove Dr. Gawande to write the book. It's called Being Mortal and you might find it someday on PBS Frontline, their archives or maybe even YouTube.

I am a HUGE fan of Dr. Gawande. I’ve read all of his books I highly recommend this book to everyone. I think I did a paper on it in PA school.

 

[Noah & me (GA)]

It's an amazing book. A few doctors have asked about my family history and when they ask how my mom died and I say "She just got old" I never get a strange look. My sisters wanted her back home in a hospital bed with a live-in nurse but that was never going to happen. Now my sisters take turns nailing each other to the cross which is not what my mom wanted. I've got my own problems but I didn't inherit the guilt and shame gene.

 

[Amanda & Shmee]

Hi Ana, sorry I have been away from the board, I am overwhelmed with work! This was a great conversation and I think you are making the right choice for you and Frosty. The photo with him in the PJ's is the cutest ever. I am so happy he was being social and I give you so many props and hugs. I am dreading this time and I can't imagine how you must feel.

 

[JeanW]

Much love and hugs to you both
Frosty is blessed to be with you.

 

[JeffJ]

I'm glad Frosty is feeling a little better today. Sometimes they do surprise you. I agree that some drastic measures can often be futile. None of us will feel bad when it is Frosty's time. I hope he has days or years more with you. It is great that Frosty was provided a great home in the last year. Just plain great. I'm sure he knows it too.

 

[Becky & Baby Girl GA]

Thinking of you & Frosty & sending all the appetite mojo & prayers I can. You’re such a fantastic momma for him & he is a blessed kitty!

 

[H.M. Victor (GA)]

I'm glad Frosty is hanging in there so the two of you can spend as much time together while you can. He's so lucky to have you. I really do hope and pray he can continue to fight the odds and have a good quality of life as long as possible

 

[Marje and Gracie]

I’m glad he had a little better day today, Ana.

When our Gus was 18, he had CKD but was stable, pretty bad arthritis, and then developed symptoms of lymphoma. We chose to not have any tests done but gave pred which seemed to help for a month but then didn’t. At the time we started pred, we spoke with the animal communicator who said he said he wasn’t ready yet. But she said Gracie, who was still with us, could smell that it wouldn’t be long. We had noticed her sniffing him a lot.

A month later, he was still eating and moving around the house but he was tired. We would take him out to the catnip patch....his favorite thing...he’d sit there a few minutes then head back inside. He might have been ok for a few more weeks but we had promised him we would let him cross before it was a crisis and before he lost dignity because he couldn’t get up to pee in the box.

We talked to the AC again and she said he was ready when we were so we had the vet come to our home after we’d spent a day with him, Gracie, and Tobey giving him his favorite things and no meds. He crossed peacefully at home surrounded by those who loved him most. It was hard but I’ve never had so much peace because we kept our promise. We grieved heavily and still miss him but his crossing was as perfect as it could be and when the AC contacted him later, she said she had never seen so much light or felt so much love.

You’ll know....I know you will.

 

[Tricia Cinco(GA) & Harvey]

{{{Ana}}}

This is a wonderful thread, and you have said some very important things, as have many others. I am sorry that Frosty's conditions has necessitated this, but grateful for it, nonetheless.

When we took Cinco in, he was very ill with his uncontrolled diabetes. He got DKA and was in terrible shape. The vet recommended euthanasia, and after much soul searching and many tears we decided he had suffered enough. The night we made that decision, he rallied and started eating and struggling to stand, etc. We decided he wanted to keep fighting, so we would, too. That night I promised him that if he got better, I would never let him suffer like that again. Five years later, when his third bout with cancer was taking all the fight out of him, I kept that promise. I had to set four cats free in the space of nine months, but I don't regret any of those decisions, because it was their time.

You are doing all the right things for Frosty, and I know he trusts you to follow his lead. I hope you have many more good days with him, but what will be will be and know we are all here for you throughout.

 

[Sue484]

I lost my civvie Fluffy this year on 11th September. She only fell ill on the 7th and had to go to the hospital as an emergency after my normal vet referred her. She deteriorated quickly and and needed five chest drains over the weekend and became oxygen dependent. When we went to visit on the 11th, the vet told us she had cancer all over her lungs and liver, and it would be best to let her go. We had suspected this was coming and prepared ourselves to let her go. When it came to it, she was in my arms and I was crying and saying that was I doing the right thing as she had never given me a sign. With that, she laid her head on my shoulder and snuggled in. I knew then she was ready as she was the most un-snuggliest cat ever! Frosty will let you know, don't worry.

 

[Gill & George]

I lost my civvie Fluffy this year on 11th Septembe

I'm sorry Sue,
Haven't seen you in ages

 

[carfurby (GA)]

@Sue484 Sue, I'm so sorry. Sending prayers.

 

[JeanW]

I lost my civvie Fluffy this year on 11th September. She only fell ill on the 7th and had to go to the hospital as an emergency after my normal vet referred her. She deteriorated quickly and and needed five chest drains over the weekend and became oxygen dependent. When we went to visit on the 11th, the vet told us she had cancer all over her lungs and liver, and it would be best to let her go. We had suspected this was coming and prepared ourselves to let her go. When it came to it, she was in my arms and I was crying and saying that was I doing the right thing as she had never given me a sign. With that, she laid her head on my shoulder and snuggled in. I knew then she was ready as she was the most un-snuggliest cat ever! Frosty will let you know, don't worry.

I'm so sorry. It's so painful.

 

[Sue484]

Haven't seen you in ages

I've been lurking mainly. Frankie is very unremarkable in his numbers I lost Romulus in June as well. Plus after losing three cats in a year, I've been a bit battered about.

Thanks for all your words folks.

 

[Gill & George]

I lost Romulus in June as well. Plus after losing three cats in a year, I've been a bit battered about.

Tears here for your sweet Rom, Sue I had no idea.

 

[Sue484]

Tears here for your sweet Rom, Sue I had no idea.

Thanks @Gill & George. I did post at the time, but it can get lost very quickly in this forum.

 

[JeanW]

I've been lurking mainly. Frankie is very unremarkable in his numbers I lost Romulus in June as well. Plus after losing three cats in a year, I've been a bit battered about.

Thanks for all your words folks.

You've lost 3 in a year? I am so sorry - how painful. Sending hugs and good vines to you