Help with high numbers

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Av & Luna

Av & Luna

Member Since 2018
I think I have panicked this morning and not sure what to do next. My vet keeps telling me to give Luna 3 units in the morning and 2 units at night.

Luna has been consistently in 300/400's since starting Lantus a week ago and lowest we have seen it is 316.

She started on 2 units am and 1 unit pm and I increased her dose (see spreadsheet) 2 days ago to 2 units twice a day because my vet keeps saying its not enough for her weight (5.9 kilos) but her numbers seem to have gone up, not down and she has been drinking far too much.

So throughout the night I could hear her drinking and this morning when her numbers were even higher than ever i have increased the morning dose from 2 units to 3 units. My husband thinks this is the right thing to do because the vet said so but I am not so sure at all. Is this too big a jump?

Now I don't know what to give her later at all. I feel very confused because I know Luna's numbers need to come down urgently and she is drinking sooo much again these last couple of days - but numbers/drinking are worse since I increased the dose and this makes me totally confused with what is going on.

Has anyone any experience of this and any advice to offer me? Thanks
 
Av & Luna said:
I think I have panicked this morning and not sure what to do next. My vet keeps telling me to give Luna 3 units in the morning and 2 units at night.

Luna has been consistently in 300/400's since starting Lantus a week ago and lowest we have seen it is 316.

She started on 2 units am and 1 unit pm and I increased her dose (see spreadsheet) 2 days ago to 2 units twice a day because my vet keeps saying its not enough for her weight (5.9 kilos) but her numbers seem to have gone up, not down and she has been drinking far too much.

So throughout the night I could hear her drinking and this morning when her numbers were even higher than ever i have increased the morning dose from 2 units to 3 units. My husband thinks this is the right thing to do because the vet said so but I am not so sure at all. Is this too big a jump?

Now I don't know what to give her later at all. I feel very confused because I know Luna's numbers need to come down urgently and she is drinking sooo much again these last couple of days - but numbers/drinking are worse since I increased the dose and this makes me totally confused with what is going on.

Has anyone any experience of this and any advice to offer me? Thanks
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I'm new at this but I've been told increases and decreases in .25 units only.
Select the question mark next to your post title so people will notice you have questions.
I'm sorry I can't give any dosing advice, but I also believe Lantus works better when it's a consistent dose (the same amount a.m. and p.m.) Listen to the folks on here - not to your vet. Luci would be dead now if I'd listened to my vets (yes, plural). Best of luck to you and Luna!
 
HI yes thanks, these are my thoughts and I don't usually listen to vets unless it seems logical to me too.

However, the dose on the lantus information does say starting dose for Luna's weight should be 0.5 per kilos so according to that she should be on 3 units twice a day. That is why I have allowed myself to be persuaded to give her 3 units this morning.

I am thinking maybe the dose we started her on is too low but then I am reading on here to start at a much lower dose than 3 units twice a day seemingly irrespective of weight of cat. So confused now and starting to panic.

Can't see the question mark?
 
Av & Luna said:
HI yes thanks, these are my thoughts and I don't usually listen to vets unless it seems logical to me too.

However, the dose on the lantus information does say starting dose for Luna's weight should be 0.5 per kilos so according to that she should be on 3 units twice a day. That is why I have allowed myself to be persuaded to give her 3 units this morning.

I am thinking maybe the dose we started her on is too low but then I am reading on here to start at a much lower dose than 3 units twice a day seemingly irrespective of weight of cat. So confused now and starting to panic.

Can't see the question mark?
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upload_2018-5-28_8-59-7.png

It's under the drop down menu box on the left when you are ready to post a new thread - or you can click on 'Edit Title' and you'll see it appear on the left side then as well...you can change your title as the day goes on to post new BG numbers and at that time you can also add one of those selections (911 for emergencies, GA for gone ahead; passed away) or the ? for if you have questions...it'll help bring your post to the attention of the wise ones here who can help you.

My vet wanted me to start Luci on 2 u - also based on her weight. I went with what the group recommended and started her on a much lower dose - you have to be very, very careful otherwise you'll put your cat into hypoglycemia and that's scary! You'll have to treat her before her blood glucose goes too low with high carbs - lots of people have karo syrup or honey on hand for those emergencies.

Have you read the 'Stickies' for treating your cat with Lantus? Lots of good information there to help you make your decisions.

I also wanted to add...or perhaps I overlooked - what is Luna eating?
 
Av,

Lantus should be consistent dose for both shots. The 2 units at PM will act as a decrease each time you give it. You want to give same dose for both shots.

For the readings you have on the ss, I think the 2 units is fine since you already have been giving it and readings are still high. Keep to that dose for minimum 3-7 days. Try to get a test or two in between 5-7 hrs after the shot this morning. Lantus is based on the lowest reading which for most cats is that 5-7 window. Any further increases should be done in .25 increments. Also try to get at least 1 mid test in between each cycle.

If you can in your signature (where ss is) add the insulin and type of meter you are using. This way you won't be asked over and over.
 
Hi and welcome to the land of L&L. There is lots to learn here and it takes tyme so do not panic. Luna will be fine and you are off to a good start. Take a look at Titans SS from 2017 when we started last summer, lots of 400's and 500's. Kitties are resilient and you will get Luna on a good dose. My suggestion is read, read and reread the stickys on getting started and dose increases. 3 units 2x a day is a good place to start and using one of the protocols ( you have selected one right?) you will increase till you find the dose that works. There may also be other issues at play here. Titan was tested and is an Acro kitty ( positive for acromegaly ). We did not test for IAA but I do believe he was positive for that which can be over come. You will have lots of questions and we all here to help you navigate the waters. Good luck and I'll be looking for your posts. Ed
 
We have two dosing methodologies we use here. The first, Tight Regulation (TR), which is slightly more aggressive, uses a starting dose of 0.25 units per kilo. which would make Luna's starting dose 1.5 units. However, the TR protocol requires that Luna be on low carb wet food or raw. I understand she is still on high carb dry food? The second method, called Start Low Go Slow (SLGS), has a starting dose of 1.0 units for kitties on dry food. The 0.5 kg you quote above is from a very old version of TR and was found to be too aggressive. Also, with high numbers like you are seeing, the most we would have increase is by 0.5 units on TR. With SLGS it would be 0.25 units. Any progress on getting insulin syringes? If you can buy the BD Microfines in the chemist (pharmacy), there is a paper ruler you can use to measure doses changes smaller than 1 unit.

Here is a link to yur previous post on Health, with more background information for people here: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/help-needed-please-for-lantus-dosing.196035/

Good job starting the testing. I have a couple of suggestions. First, can you try to get any tests after the PM shot? Many kitties go lower at night. Getting even a test just before you go to bed will help give us a better picture of what is happening. It's entirely possible, and my cat did it for months, is for kitty to go low at night and bounce high during the day. More on bounces later. Second, trying to get rid of that dry food if you can will be a huge help. We've seen kitties need over 5 units with dry food in the picture, then go off of insulin with just low carb wet or raw.

Bouncing is another source of high numbers. From the New to the Group Sticky Note:
Bouncing - Bouncing is simply a natural reaction to what the cat's system perceives as a BG value that is "too low". "Too low" is relative. If a cat is used to BGs in the 200's, 300's, or higher for a long time, then even a BG that drops to 150 can trigger a "bounce". Bouncing can also be triggered if the blood glucose drops too low and/or too fast.The pancreas, then the liver, release glucogon, glycogen and counter-regulatory hormones. The end result is a dumping of "sugar" into the bloodstream to save the cat from going hypoglycemic from a perceived low. The action is often referred to as "liver panic" or "panicky liver". *Usually*, a bounce will clear kitty's system within 3 days (6 cycles).

Almost all new cats will "bounce" or have high numbers due being unfamiliar with normal blood sugar numbers. Most of our kitties were diabetic for a while before they were diagnosed.

As for different doses AM and PM, that is something that is very commonly suggested for the in and out insulins, such as Caninsulin. My vet had me doing that do when Neko was on Caninsulin. It's not something we do here with the depot style insulins Lantus and Levemir. With our dosing methods here, we find giving the same dose AM and PM is best. It's entirely possible your vet doesn't have much experience with dosing the depot insulins as a lot of Europe mandates Caninsulin as the first choice. The combined knowledge and experience here is likely much larger.
 
Ok thanks everyone - all very helpful.

Just done BG reading and it is still in the red which is really surprising especially as this is the first red reading we have had after a shot. Wasn't expecting that one at all after this morning's increased dose of a full one unit!

I feel less worried now about any possible hypo effect but find it really odd that when we increase the dose, the numbers are increasing too. I am seriously beginning to wonder if the insulin has a fault and wondering if to start a new pen - we take the insulin from the pen with a syringe following advice from here. It is just weird that the numbers are not coming down at all and the lowest reading we have ever found is in the 300s. Any thoughts on this?

I don't think we are dealing with any other issues here apart from Diabetes because we have had Luna tested for absolutely everything we could think of,

She has had a scan, x-rays and full blood work tests including Leukemia and thankfully all have come back negative. Luna was on steroids mid February for 3 weeks and going off her symptoms (losing weight, excess drinking and urinating) this diabetic condition seems to have started/resulted from that.

She has lost a huge amount of weight since then, around 30% of her body weight (lost almost 3 kilos/6.6lbs) so one of the main priorities is for her to regain some weight. Food - currently on Royal Canin Diabetic plus literally a tiny spoonful of Gourmet pate once a day and she licks the gravy off a whiskas plus 1 chicken pouch in the mornings. Not great right now I know and I do have better plans for the future - but for now I am just grateful she seems to have regained her appetite as I am pretty desperate for her to put on a few pounds.

Ed - what do you mean by selecting a protocol please?
 
Av & Luna said:
what do you mean by selecting a protocol please?
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Since Luna is eating dry food, the dosing method you would follow is called Start Low Go Slow. It is described in one of the Sticky Notes at the top of this forum. For people whose cat is on wet food, TR is an option, that allows larger and more frequent increases when kitty is in high numbers.
 
Wendy - Yes I got the syringes thank you.

It is going to be hard to change Luna over from dry food as she has always been a free feeder since I rescued her 9 years ago. She eats mainly during the night and a little throughout the day here and there. As previous, priority right now is that she eats at all because she previously had no appetite and has lost so much weight in last couple of months. Also the issue is I don't know what it says on the cans here in Spain at the shops so am going to order food in (with help from Spanish speaking neighbour asap) as per recommended by Chris.

Not possible really for us to do later pm BG because we need to go to bed/try get sleep pretty much straight after the PM BG for various reasons. ..wouldn't think it would go low at night though as Luna normally eats on and off throughout the night?

I have read the SLGS protocol thank you - Given Luna's spreadsheet and the fact that she has been having 2 units twice a day for last couple of days (and 3 units this morning), what would you recommend we do now to proceed using SLGS protocol? ...and do you think it is OK for Luna to have such high readings with no distinctive/real nadar?
 
I wonder if there is another way for you to get night time readings. Any chance of moving her shot time up two hours in both the AM and PM so you can at least get a +2 at night? If not, can you get a test as soon as you get up in the morning?

The Lantus depot can take 6 cycles or 3 days to build. SLGS suggests holding the same dose for 7 days or 14 cycles. You only held the 2.0 unit dose for 4 cycles in a row, so we have no idea how well 2.0 units was working. Constantly changing the dose can also give odd readings. And it's actually possible if the dose is too high that you will get worse numbers for the majority of the time. I'm not the best at this, but you really need to be patient with Lantus.

Without night time readings, it's hard to say what is happening. She could be going lower at night and bouncing high during the day. The dry food may help, but hard to tell. For now, try to test when you can and let's see what this dose is doing. Give it time to work.

Did you get syringes with 1/2 unit markings? If not, or even to help you with smaller dose changes, there is an insulin chart you can download. If you look at the TR Sticky Note, attached is a document called "Management of Diabetic Cats...". On the page number 255 of that document, is a section on administering small doses. It includes pictures and a link to an insulin ruler you can download, if you have the BD syringes.
 
I couldn't agree more with the information Wendy posted. If there's any way you can adjust Luna's shot time so you can get at least one PM test, that would be enormously helpful. (Also, if you happen to get up during the night, consider getting a test!) For what it's worth, I'm not a morning person and I moved my shot time to 5:00 so I could get the tests that I needed given that Gabby was prone to early drops in numbers.

One possibility to help with transitioning to a low carb diet is to use a timed feeder. This will allow food to be available more often than just at shot times. Many people here use canned food in the feeders. You can either freeze the food or some feeders come with a space for a cold pack.

Just a point about so-called "diabetic" food, most of the brands that are considered appropriate for diabetic cats are very high in carbohydrates -- the last thing a diabetic needs. Frankly, Royal Canin is among the brands that is very high in carbs. It's very likely that the food is causing the high numbers.

I'm tagging @Gill & George. Gill is currently on vacation so she may not get back immediately. She lives in Spain and can, no doubt, help with food recommendations.
 
Hi Av,
I would be surprised if you find any good quality LC wet food in general sale in the shops, even in the big national pet shops I have found choice of cat food to be limited.

For dry kibble ziwi peak and thrive are the two best choices if faced with a cat that won't eat wet, but if you can go through the pain of the transition to wet it will be so much better from a diabetes management, and also better health wise for Luna.

The UK list I linked in your other post has many good choices that will be available to you on line, there are some economical choices too, animonda, and Smila are both good value.

I give George snacks at 3hourly intervals, and I use an automated feeder for this, he has got used to the sound, and comes for his snack when he hears it rotate. This works well as it keeps the flies off his food, and when it's warm the addition of an icecube keeps the snack fresh and moist.

Just tag me or pm me if you need any help.
 
Thanks for all the advice - much appreciated.

Gill - I got the syringes with half measures and thanks so much for your amazing help. I have got the food you recommended ready to order and I just need to ask my neighbour to help with the order as delivery is always an issue because we live up a mountain and we are unable to communicate with the delivery driver /phone calls. We will start with the dry as she needs to eat now she has got her appetite back and gain weight asap and then will try to move over to wet. Automatic feeder won't work for the sensitive Luna I'm afraid. I bought a microchip feeder, tried for over a year to gradually get her used to it but was a total waste of money as Luna is a proper scaredy cat and runs away at the slightest sound. If the door bell goes she hides for hours and gets cystitis if I dare to have a visitor to stay overnight! Your offer to help is immensely appreciated and I hope you are having a good holiday

Wendy and Sienne - Ok understood thanks. No chance of nighttime/early morning readings - my husband is diabetic (& 70) and I am an old geriatric too with Lupus and liver damage & quickly become very ill if I don't get enough rest. However on the upside, I have been looking at the Abbot Freestyle monitor which looks amazing and will constantly monitor her BG and have my name down for when they are back in stock.

Wendy - Do you mean you think I should go back to the 2 units for a few more days? Or continue with 3 units?
 
Hi again Av, here is another hint on the FDMB forum, when you want to "tag" someone like Wendy etc, start with an @ then start typing a name and you will be given a list of names that match. Select the one you want to alert and they will get an alert that you are looking for them. Ex @Av & Luna . So to get Wendy to answer your question type "@Wendy & Neko "
 
Wendy&Neko said:
It's entirely possible your vet doesn't have much experience with dosing the depot insulins as a lot of Europe mandates Caninsulin as the first choice. The combined knowledge and experience here is likely much larger.
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Hi Av, I am new to this group too, so I just wanted to chime in and say this made me think of something -- I recommend asking your vet how much experience they have with treating feline diabetes, and then how much experience they have with getting those cats into remission. It was a great piece of advice I received from this group. Even though I was a little uncomfortable asking my vet, I am glad I did. I learned that she had some feline diabetes experience, and "very few" instances of getting cats into remission. Most vets goal is to get them into the normal renal threshold range (200-300 I think?). But that is not our goal. Our goal is remission, and this Lantus forum alone has helped 400 cats go into remission. It is a great resource :)

The very best of luck to you! :bighug:
 
I was wondering if you get 12 hours sleep, or maybe get up a couple hours before you feed and give insulin. Any night time data between the shots will be valuable. We have had several members with sleep issues, we work with what you can do. Even if you have to get up to use the loo, use the opportunity to grab a test.

I mean you should pick a dose and stick with it, for at least three days, same dose AM and PM.
 
Av & Luna said:
, I have been looking at the Abbot Freestyle monitor which looks amazing and will constantly monitor her BG and have my name down for when they are back in stock.
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We've had some members try this but it's not been very successful. Issues witn accuracy after a couple of weeks, and having to be refitted, which in itself caused some problems.

We live out on the sticks too, getting deliveries can be challenging on rural Spain, glad you have a friend that can help with that.
 
Whatever you can do to get even one test in the evening will be a help. Our goal is to keep your kitty safe and in good numbers and testing is the best way to do so. Of course, you can't take care of Av if you're sick. It's a balancing act. Is there any chance your husband can lend a hand by helping out with testing?
 
@Wendy&Neko @Gill & George

Took your advice and reverted to 2 units last night and this morning and will stick with that for next 3 days minimum. Without the 3 unit 'blip' yesterday that will then be a full week on a steady 2 units and we will take it from there

My lovely husband already does all the BG - we actually do it all between us every time, I hold her and her ear in position while he does BG and then I do the insulin injection. No way could just one of us do any of this as Luna is terrified of her own shadow, not a relaxed animal at all and I have many scratches from her fear of just being carried. We have to put her in a harness to even do it between us. It really is a military operation, not just a quick BG that just one of us could perform in the night.

Luna was abandoned along with her sister Jakey at about 2 years old by a professional tennis player who had them from kittens - they were just left dumped outside the house complete with their designer collars when the owner moved to America and they had to live a starving, thirsty feral life for about a year until I moved into the area and rescued them both. Cats are considered to be vermin by many in Canary Islands and treated as such and that is where Luna's nervous behaviour and terror of people came from. I have seen some dreadful things and was told by one such horrible man that he would bring a gun to both me and the cats if I fed or gave water to any of the abandoned and feral cats again! Hence Luna's fear of all people and my reason for free feeding them ever since so they knew they would always have food and water.

Was that recent issues with Abbot Freestyle? They have sold out internationally and I am thinking that maybe they are really attending to the accuracy issue. Are they easy to fix to a cat though?

Vets - I have no confidence in them whatsoever and in my own experience I believe they pretty much killed two of my cats including Luna's very special and beautiful sister Jakey. I now take whatever they say with a pinch of salt and research it all myself . This is why I am here looking to you guys for advice as I know it is you who have all the experience as well as the most important thing of all, like me, you care deeply about the cats or you wouldn't be on here at all

Thanks again everyone for your amazing help and advice
 
@Wendy&Neko @Gill & George
It's really worrying to see these numbers go into the black. She's drinking for Britain again now - worst she's been since before diagnosis and I am very worried she might end up needing fluids again/ Ketones starting again. Very hard to hold the dose when this is happening. Can't ask vet because she said we should have given her 3 units in morning and 2 at night since last Sunday and won't be pleased to see we haven't followed her advice.
 
Is she converted to low carb wet food yet?

Without night time tests, it's not safe to suggest faster increases.
 
Still waiting for the low carb food to be delivered. I was really hoping for today but looks like next week now -as we are on an island it takes as long as it takes and there's nothing we can do about it! Meanwhile feeding diabetic royal canin which seems pretty useless to me.

I have some Whiskas +1 with gravy (for my other cat) and wonder if that is better for her for now than the dry diabetic RC - I looked it up and it seems below 2% carbs but then I could have worked it out wrong. It is all very new to me. https://www.whiskas.co.uk/our-produ...-pouches-poultry-selection-in-gravy-12-x-100g

By the amount of water she was getting through in the night she definitely isn't going low and I knew from that her BG would be really high this morning - Drinking far more at night than in the day. With numbers constatly like these I can't imagine she could possibly go too low, but what do I know!

I am thinking about increasing to 3 units tomorrow morning and maybe sticking with 2.5 at the pm shot for safety
 
Do you have pee sticks to test for ketones? Is that something you are able to do with Miss Skittish?

Also, does she get a treat right after each test? Might help, if you're not yet doing that.

Cheers from Switzerland :)
 
No pee sticks - how do they work and what do you do if there are ketones present?
Last time she had ketones we had to spend days/hours at vets for fluids -is that the only way to treat them?

Strangely she doesn't like any treats I have ever bought -but I have some new recommended ones on order
 
You can get the ketostix (or ketodiastix) at the pharmacy or online. They're color-coded. Best way to use them is stick them under the cat's butt when peeing, get the stick wet, then look at the colours.

If you see ketones, yeah, usually it means the vet. But catching them early can mean vet + live cat rather than vet + dead cat (don't want to be dramatic but we see more cats die of ketones than hypos).

If there is only a tiny amount of ketones you could in theory force more calories into the cat, and more insulin, and see how things go -- but most of the time a trip to the vet is in order.
 
OK thanks for info - nope she doesn't like meat of any description nor cheese - She's a real odd girl, the only thing she likes is a lick of my strawberry mini yoghurt/fromage which I am assuming is now a no go
 
Ketones above trace means a visit to the vet.

Doing a lower dose at night may or may not be a safety move. Due to the depot, a cycle may play out the same as if you had shot the full instead of a reduced dose. Even our most aggressive dosing method here has you holding a dose for six cycles before increasing, and that's with night time data. Increasing after four cycles with no night time data is not safe.

Have you tried her on the Whiskas food to see if she likes it?
 
Dangerous even when the numbers have consistently increased and never dropped below 400 for six days in a row?

Yes she really likes the +1 Whiskas but just licks the gravy really rather than eat the meat. Won't even look at anything terrine or in jelly.

She will also eat literally a teaspoonful of Purina Gourmet ocean pate - but then I have to throw the rest away. She won't entertain it at all unless it has just been freshly opened. She's just not a meat eater, likes her biscuits.
 
It is not safe to be in consistently high numbers. So, in a situation like this, you have to balance two things: risking a hypo if you up the dose too fast, and risking glucose toxicity and ketones if you don't bring it up fast enough.

Ultimately it's your decision, also based on how much you are able to monitor, if you are ready to deal with low numbers, etc.

I know that on the German forum where TR originated they are more agressive than we are here in upping the dose early on when it is clear that the numbers are too high. ie, going up by 0.5 rather than 0.25, or not waiting a full 6 cycles.

Quoting from the protocol explanation on Tilly's Diabetes Hompage:

"Most cats need to have their dose increased. Do it in 0.25 IU or 0.5 IU steps (0.25 IU if the cat is getting a low dose and/or relatively low BGs, 0.5 IU if the cat is getting a higher dose and/or relatively high BGs). Hold each dose for 5-7 days. However, if the cat is producing continuously high BGs (nadir always >=300 mg/dl), only hold the dose for 2-3 days before increasing it by 0.5 IU. Alternatively, if the cat is continuously producing moderately elevated BGs (nadir always >=200 mg/dl), increase the dose every 2-3 days by 0.25 IU ( if the cat is getting a low dose) or 0.5 IU (if the cat is getting a higher dose). From this point onward test for ketones once per week, or more often if the nadirs are still >=200"

The guidelines you will find on the forum stickies here are strict about a minimum of 6 cycles at a given dose.

(Remember the TR guidelines are designed for very low-carb food. If you're giving higher carb food the variability in carb intake can really wreak havoc on the BG, and when you're tightroping near normal-low numbers that can be really dangerous.)

In Luna's case, it is in theory possible that she is going low at night and bouncing during the day, but honestly, the day numbers are so consistently high that I would be surprised if that were the case. I could be wrong, but I'd be surprised.

If you could get even a +1 test after the evening shot, it would be of great help. Those used to Lantus curves and spreadsheets can reasonably "fill in the blanks" based on a number or two, provided there is enough data elsewhere (like during your day cycles).

I think she needs more insulin, but I'm hesitant to recommend an increase with no testing in half the cycles.

Hope this helps :-/
 
Yes, we will go up faster on this board too if here are numbers over 300, but only if there are tests in each of the four cycles. We don't have that data. It is entirely feasible this cat could be going low at night and bouncing during the day. That would be a sign of too much insulin. I don't want to risk suggesting more insulin if the dose is already too high.
 
OK thanks, this is really difficult as it is simply not possible due to my poor health for me to get up in the night as I would end up seriously ill and that would not help anyone.

She eats quite a bit and drinks very heavily all night so I can't imagine she will drop any lower than the daytime numbers during that cycle - from what we know her usual first two hours seems to drop to 400s and 300s if we are really lucky but then they start creeping back up again.

I do know that the more she drinks in the night the higher the BG will be in the morning.

We could try to bring forward the dose times so we can get a BG an hour or two after pm shot. Problem with that is that I think she only drops for first couple of hours and then starts going back up again so I don't think it would really help.

Let's see what tonight and tomorrow BG brings....
 
If you can move shot times in such a way that you can get a +1 (even better if it’s +2) before you hit the sac it will make a world of differences data-wise, and give us much more to work with to help you towards regulation!!
 
OK will try tomorrow for that - I am working on a long as it is within the hour? EG if the morning shot is 10.20 so we can do pm shot anytime from 9.20pm? is that right?
 
Av & Luna said:
OK will try tomorrow for that - I am working on a long as it is within the hour? EG if the morning shot is 10.20 so we can do pm shot anytime from 9.20pm? is that right?
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You probably want to keep shot times within 30min. Bringing the shot forward by an hour in a single jump like that can act as a dose increase, and some cats are more sensitive than others.


I'm going to ask what will seem like a personal question, but just trying to help. What time do you normally get up? What time do you go to bed?

I organized shot times so that I shot within an hour of waking up.

I'd often get up at 6am, test George (+11) I'd grab a coffee, wake up a bit, then test and shoot at 7am.

That meant evening shot was at 7pm, S I usually go to bed at around 11pm it allowed me to get an+5 without disrupting my sleep. Unless you have to sleep for 12hours for your health it should in theory be possible to organise the shots so you can get at least one test in the pm cycle.

I know that 7hrs is perhaps a little less sleep than the average individual, but anyway that's what worked best for me. When I started o was shooting at 11am and 11pm, that didn't ewor for me.
 
Thanks everyone. My husband and I between us have got the getting blood sorted now thank you.

However, it takes two of us to perform a BG on Luna. She is not a confident, happy sit on your knee, purry sweet cat - she is a terrified rescue cat who is frightened of her own shadow and there is no possibility of ever getting a BG without her being restrained by one person whilst the other does the testing.

Regarding the night BG issues - oh wow I wish - 12 hours sleep sounds like a dream come true for me lol.

We go to bed around midnight. My husband is 70, recovering from septicaemia and a diabetic himself and needs his sleep. He is not well enough to get up in the middle of the night or early hours of the morning to help me test Luna and as said, it takes both of us.

I have serious health issues which means I am unwell throughout the night, every night. Sometimes seriously unwell. Nights are my worst time for my illness. During night hours I am exhausted but my illness prevents me from sleeping. Longest run of sleep I ever get in a night is about 3 and a half hours if I'm lucky and due to my condition, this happens from around 6am until 0930. TBH I'm not in any fit state in the night hours to test Luna even if it were possible (which it isn't) - and with only 3-5 hours sleep max all night, I physically can't get up any earlier than that.

Therefore, as it takes both of us to do it and the earliest we know we can regularly inject/ test Luna is around 1000am.

Because I am awake on and off for most of the night I know what Luna is doing during most of the night hours and how much she is drinking . I know she usually starts around 0400 hours if she is going to drink excessively. There is most definitely a correlation with the amount she drinks and her BG numbers and I know if her numbers are going to be really high or not before testing.

We are hoping to get a +2 pm BG tonight although I don't really see how that will help to establish what is happening throughout the night.
 
An idea— @Kailee § Dallas got a “cat bag” for Dallas because he was impossible to test. The first 2-3 days were a struggle but now he jumps on the table and stands in the bag when she takes it out. Maybe worth looking into, both for you and her!

Trust us, you wouldn’t imagine how much extra data a +2 gives us compared to nothing :D
 
So we did a +2 and logically, that indicates to me that the same is happening at night as it is during the day. Albeit that I could be totally wrong as I have no experience whatsoever in this.

It makes no logic sense to me at all how the numbers could possibly have got worse from when we were only giving her 2 units in the morning and 1 shot at night.

However, they have got worse and as we have stayed at 6 cycles and 7 shots at 2.5 with numbers which are way too high so have increased the dose to 2.75 this morning.

While we are still waiting for delivery of Thrive, I have no idea whether the RC diabetic dry food is better for Luna than the wet whiskas +1. Can anyone tell me which is best?

I also need to try to find a food in gravy that will be good for her because she loves gravy but will not look at anything in terrine or jelly. If anyone has any ideas of a wet food in gravy that I could try it would really help me because I have no idea how we are ever going to get these numbers down and right now feel pretty fed up and useless.
 
..can anyone tell me if these wet foods are in a gravy and advise please?
https://thrivepetfoods.com/cats/wet-food

Ideal would be a suitable wet food in very small pouches of anything in gravy - she only eats very small amounts at a time and the rest gets wasted.

All help and advice much appreciated.
 
Sorry can't help with food that is available where you are. However, most food in gravy are to high in carbs. If using those foods, you will properly have to have higher doses of insulin.
 
Right now choices are Royal Canin diabetic dry or whiskas +1 .

...but numbers are yet again higher than yesterday with increased dose this morning. Makes no sense to me at all.

No idea which is best option of existing food but pretty despondent with trying to do everything right/slowly yet condition getting worse from what it was when originally diagnosed -her very highest Preshot numbers were early 400s.

Might as well just give her both/what she wants until new dry food arrives next week
 
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