4/4 | Moose | AMPS = 302, +1 = 301 (possible FS), +2 = 260

[Moose (GA) & Rae]

Good morning everyone.

Link to yesterday's condo.

Thank you for everyone's advice yesterday, I really appreciate it. I didn't get chance to respond to everyone before I went to bed, so I will do that in this thread.

It's weird seeing Moose at such high numbers when he was in blues and greens only a month ago. I hope that I can get him back there. I'm curious to see if the old insulin is effective anymore (that's what I shot him with this morning.) I will also work on getting insulin from somewhere else since I don't want to purchase the repackaged kind from my vet anymore.

Hugs and head bumps

Edit: I just wanted to share a picture that I took of Moose "chilling" at the vet last night. This was taken right after they had given him 2 shots, taken his blood and urine, and scraped the tartar off of his teeth. I don't know how he remains so calm!

 

[Moose (GA) & Rae]

I still think 0.5u is a safe starting point.

That would explain why Moose ate so much, yet lost weight.

BUN isn't as important as Creatinine. I think that's Stage 2. I wouldn't worry too much about that right now and focus on getting the diabetes controlled again.

I did .5 this morning. 1U seems a little too scary, no use rushing it anyway.

I hadn't realized he lost so much weight, my poor baby.

Ok sounds like a plan, thanks so much!

 

[Moose (GA) & Rae]

Asia has CKD as do other cats here in various stages. There is controversy on feeding kidney diets as they are on the lower side with protein and that can lead to muscle wasting while preserving kidney function.

I chose not to feed a low protein diet for Asia, I feed her raw and she had been stable kidney wise until the diabetes diagnosis (and a kidney infection) for a couple of years. Low phosphorous foods are absolutely important. There are lists on low p foods, you can use Dr Lisa’s list or you can look here, this is Tanya’s CKD site and it has more information than you want, you can get lost over there. However, they discuss diet and the like. Also, add water to his food as long as he will tolerate it.

https://www.felinecrf.org/

Oh goodness, no we don't want any muscle wasting!

Do you use Dr. Lisa's guide for making the raw food? (catinfo.org) I had looked into that previously for Moose but never got around to actually getting all of the ingredients to make it. Honestly that will probably be my next step.

Thank you so much! I will definitely be aware of the phosphorous levels when feeding Moose. I had previously been adding water to his food and he was just fine with it, so I will start doing that again.

 

[Moose (GA) & Rae]

It's been a while since I've dealt with CKD, but I have a couple of suggestions.
Did they also happen to give you a urine specific gravity (USG) value? That will tell you if Moose is concentrating the urine.
I'm wondering since it may be a sudden increase inthe BUN and creatinine values, and the fact that Moose's BG have also suddenly started rising, whether there may actually be a kidney infection? I have no experience directly, but it may be something you can ask your vet about?
Incidentally, there are other reasons for elevated creatine and BUN. For example, if Moose is a larger, more muscular kitty, the creatinine can be higher. If he is dehydrated, the BUN can be elevated. That's why the SDMA test is better at confirming CKD. Also, did they get any phosphorus, potassium, sodium, calcium readings? If Moose has early stage CKD, you ideally want to feed a low phosphorus diet, I'm not certain of the value but somehow less than 300 mg/100kcals seems to pop in to my head...the lower the better.

That vial does seem repackaged. Mine definitely doesn't have a peel-away label.

Yes, USG was 1.032.

The creatinine isn't as sudden as the BUN, his creatinine was elevated at his ER visit in January (2.5 mg/dL). I can still ask my vet about it though. I expected the creatinine to still be elevated but was surprised by the BUN results.

Moose is pretty large, and the vet confirmed that he still feels like he has a good amount of muscle mass despite being an older kitty. No, the vet did not get a phosphorous, potassium, sodium, and calcium readings unfortunately. I have heard < 300 mg for phosphorous levels as well.

Yikes, ok well that is a bummer Thank you for all of your advice!

 

[Moose (GA) & Rae]

Yes it's repackaged. We've seen that from Wedgewood before. If the current insulin doesn't work, get a paper prescription and see if you can get pens at a human pharmacy.

What's more important any in early stages of CKD is good quality protein that is low phosphorus. The Fancy Feast may have to come out of the rotation, it's phosphorus is higher.

Hoping it's just a short stay here.

Ok I will look to get it elsewhere. I'm a bit nervous to ask for a paper prescription from the vet as I'm sure she will ask why I'm not buying it there anymore. It was hard enough to leave last night without buying one because she almost didn't let me go without it.

The Fancy Feast has been out of rotation for about 3 weeks now, I forgot to update my signature. I have since been feeding only the Tiki, but recently added (as of this weekend) Friskies Pate into the mix. Looks like Friskies has higher phosphorous as well, but it's lower than Fancy Feast. I just need a cheaper food to rotate with the Tiki since the Tiki is very expensive.

Thank you for your help.

 

[carfurby (GA)]

I hope Moose will come down for you today, but it may take a couple of cycles for the depot to fill.

 

[Moose (GA) & Rae]

I hope Moose will come down for you today, but it may take a couple of cycles for the depot to fill.

Thank you Carla It's so weird seeing him in pink. Pink is not his color

 

[CassAndGordy(GA)]

Ok I will look to get it elsewhere. I'm a bit nervous to ask for a paper prescription from the vet as I'm sure she will ask why I'm not buying it there anymore. It was hard enough to leave last night without buying one because she almost didn't let me go without it.

When I ordered from Marks, they contacted my vet directly for the prescription. She had some very small protests, but ultimately agreed it was a better idea. Cost alone is a big factor. I paid $185 for a box of 5 pens (300 units each) and the insulin I had bought that she ordered was $105 for 300 units.

Mine was required to tell me the FDA doesn't guarantee medicines bought from Canada lol - but its Canada; its not a sketchy place.

 

[Moose (GA) & Rae]

+1 = 301

I think I gave a FS because I can smell the insulin on him. Obviously I am out of practice with shooting

 

[Dyana]

Hopefully, most of it got in.

 

[Moose (GA) & Rae]

When I ordered from Marks, they contacted my vet directly for the prescription. She had some very small protests, but ultimately agreed it was a better idea. Cost alone is a big factor. I paid $185 for a box of 5 pens (300 units each) and the insulin I had bought that she ordered was $105 for 300 units.

Mine was required to tell me the FDA doesn't guarantee medicines bought from Canada lol - but its Canada; its not a sketchy place.

That is how I will present it to my vet then, hopefully she will not protest too much. It does make a lot more sense when it comes to cost! I hope they are able to understand that.

Haha, oh yes, Canada that crazy place

 

[Kris & Teasel]

That is how I will present it to my vet then, hopefully she will not protest too much. It does make a lot more sense when it comes to cost! I hope they are able to understand that.

Haha, oh yes, Canada that crazy place

Very amusing for a Canadian like me to read this ...

 

[Kris & Teasel]

Good morning everyone.

Link to yesterday's condo.

Thank you for everyone's advice yesterday, I really appreciate it. I didn't get chance to respond to everyone before I went to bed, so I will do that in this thread.

It's weird seeing Moose at such high numbers when he was in blues and greens only a month ago. I hope that I can get him back there. I'm curious to see if the old insulin is effective anymore (that's what I shot him with this morning.) I will also work on getting insulin from somewhere else since I don't want to purchase the repackaged kind from my vet anymore.

Hugs and head bumps

Edit: I just wanted to share a picture that I took of Moose "chilling" at the vet last night. This was taken right after they had given him 2 shots, taken his blood and urine, and scraped the tartar off of his teeth. I don't know how he remains so calm!

Handsome boy!

 

[Stacy & Asia]

Oh goodness, no we don't want any muscle wasting!

Do you use Dr. Lisa's guide for making the raw food? (catinfo.org) I had looked into that previously for Moose but never got around to actually getting all of the ingredients to make it. Honestly that will probably be my next step.

Thank you so much! I will definitely be aware of the phosphorous levels when feeding Moose. I had previously been adding water to his food and he was just fine with it, so I will start doing that again.

I don’t make my own raw, mostly because I don’t eat meat so it would be difficult for me. I chose Radcat raw because they use eggshells instead of bone for calcium and that makes it lower phosphorous as well. Asia is now at a stage where I also use phosphorous binders, I don’t think you’re there yet, but just mentioning if you happened to look at her lab values. I had previously fed raw with bone (Stella and Chewys) until the diabetes diagnosis, she’s been eating raw for almost a decade and when we started there were not a ton of commercial options available. What I like about radcat in particular is that they don’t add a bunch of supplements or veggies to balance the diet, they use different organs and everything comes from the animal to balance the diet. They have an FAQ and one of the questions talks about CKD:

http://www.radfood.com/education/faq

@Marje and Gracie also fed a CKD cat (was not a diabetic) raw, and she makes her own.

 

[Mandy & Rex (GA)]

Here's another choice for raw - very easy compared to making your own.
http://www.foodfurlife.com/
It is called EZ Complete. All you need to do is buy the meat and mix the pre-mix in with some water. Very easy. It is probably cheaper than Tiki! I did it for a while before stopping because it got too much with 4 cats, but if I had only 1-2 cats, I would definitely do that.

 

[Stacy & Asia]

Here's another choice for raw - very easy compared to making your own.
http://www.foodfurlife.com/
It is called EZ Complete. All you need to do is buy the meat and mix the pre-mix in with some water. Very easy. It is probably cheaper than Tiki! I did it for a while before stopping because it got too much with 4 cats, but if I had only 1-2 cats, I would definitely do that.

I think that’s was Marje uses too. I don’t know too many people who make their own entirely from scratch these days, it can be tricky to balance all the nutrients correctly.

 

[Moose (GA) & Rae]

I don’t make my own raw, mostly because I don’t eat meat so it would be difficult for me. I chose Radcat raw because they use eggshells instead of bone for calcium and that makes it lower phosphorous as well. Asia is now at a stage where I also use phosphorous binders, I don’t think you’re there yet, but just mentioning if you happened to look at her lab values. I had previously fed raw with bone (Stella and Chewys) until the diabetes diagnosis, she’s been eating raw for almost a decade and when we started there were not a ton of commercial options available. What I like about radcat in particular is that they don’t add a bunch of supplements or veggies to balance the diet, they use different organs and everything comes from the animal to balance the diet. They have an FAQ and one of the questions talks about CKD:

http://www.radfood.com/education/faq

@Marje and Gracie also fed a CKD cat (was not a diabetic) raw, and she makes her own.

Oh wow, thank you so very much! I can certainly understand how not eating meat would make it difficult to uh...grind raw meat! I eat meat, but I don't like touching it or cooking it so this seems like a much better option. I'm also worried about not getting the ratios of ingredients right, I would hate to screw it up and deny Moose necessary nutrients.

Did you have any issues transitioning Asia to a raw food diet? You said she has been eating raw for over a decade, what did you feed her prior to the raw food diet? Also, which variety do you purchase of the Rad cat? (turkey, chicken, etc.)

 

[Moose (GA) & Rae]

Here's another choice for raw - very easy compared to making your own.
http://www.foodfurlife.com/
It is called EZ Complete. All you need to do is buy the meat and mix the pre-mix in with some water. Very easy. It is probably cheaper than Tiki! I did it for a while before stopping because it got too much with 4 cats, but if I had only 1-2 cats, I would definitely do that.

Oh wow, super easy! & hey if it's cheaper than Tiki than that is a plus too! Thank you so much!

 

[Stacy & Asia]

Oh wow, thank you so very much! I can certainly understand how not eating meat would make it difficult to uh...grind raw meat! I eat meat, but I don't like touching it or cooking it so this seems like a much better option. I'm also worried about not getting the ratios of ingredients right, I would hate to screw it up and deny Moose necessary nutrients.

Did you have any issues transitioning Asia to a raw food diet? You said she has been eating raw for over a decade, what did you feed her prior to the raw food diet? Also, which variety do you purchase of the Rad cat? (turkey, chicken, etc.)

Before the raw, I fed her...kibble, for 13 years! Didn’t know any better.

It was terribly difficult to transition her to raw, she has always been a “this is my food and it’s the only food I want to eat” cat. She wouldn’t even eat treats or canned food ever for any reason. I switched because she had some major mouth issues (tooth resorption) and had to have almost all of her back teeth extracted. I don’t recall too many peticulars of switching her, but she was stubborn and didn’t want to. I didn’t have the luxury of mixing her old food with new because she had no teeth. Usually you would mix the old and new food, start off say 80% old and 20% new and over time shift the balance until they are used to it and only eating the new food. I transitioned civvie Toki to a new food by adding parm cheese to the top of it (she loves cheese).

I was expecting trouble switching from Stella to radcat, but she loved the radcat from day one and ate it willingly! @Tasha & Darwin is another picky eater that switched and also liked the radcat right away. I currently alternate turkey and chicken. She’s always eaten chicken and she doesn’t tend to like change or variety. I might try switching soon to lamb, it’s the lowest phosphorous of their offerings. A lot of cats can have trouble with red meat, though. I’m only considering a switch because of her recent IBD diagnosis. Novel proteins are supposed to help.

 

[Moose (GA) & Rae]

Before the raw, I fed her...kibble, for 13 years! Didn’t know any better.

It was terribly difficult to transition her to raw, she has always been a “this is my food and it’s the only food I want to eat” cat. She wouldn’t even eat treats or canned food ever for any reason. I switched because she had some major mouth issues (tooth resorption) and had to have almost all of her back teeth extracted. I don’t recall too many peticulars of switching her, but she was stubborn and didn’t want to. I didn’t have the luxury of mixing her old food with new because she had no teeth. Usually you would mix the old and new food, start off say 80% old and 20% new and over time shift the balance until they are used to it and only eating the new food. I transitioned civvie Toki to a new food by adding parm cheese to the top of it (she loves cheese).

I was expecting trouble switching from Stella to radcat, but she loved the radcat from day one and ate it willingly! @Tasha & Darwin is another picky eater that switched and also liked the radcat right away. I currently alternate turkey and chicken. She’s always eaten chicken and she doesn’t tend to like change or variety. I might try switching soon to lamb, it’s the lowest phosphorous of their offerings. A lot of cats can have trouble with red meat, though. I’m only considering a switch because of her recent IBD diagnosis. Novel proteins are supposed to help.

Awe no it's ok! No judgement here. We (my parents and I) free fed Moose kibble for the first 10 years of his life. That is why he weighed 23 lbs at one point and became diabetic! We all make mistakes, but now we can make better decisions for our sugar cats

Well bless your soul for being so patient with her. I can't imagine how difficult it is to have a kitty who is a picky eater (Moose will eat just about everything ). Do you remember how long it took for her to finally accept that she wasn't getting her kibble anymore?

Oh well that is good news! How does she do with the Turkey since she is a chicken fanatic? And by trouble with red meat, what do you mean? Does it upset their stomachs?

 

[Moose (GA) & Rae]

Very amusing for a Canadian like me to read this ...

Oh yes you crazy Canadians with your affordable healthcare and schooling!

 

[Kris & Teasel]

Oh yes you crazy Canadians with your affordable healthcare and schooling!

I know - awful!

 

[Stacy & Asia]

Awe no it's ok! No judgement here. We (my parents and I) free fed Moose kibble for the first 10 years of his life. That is why he weighed 23 lbs at one point and became diabetic! We all make mistakes, but now we can make better decisions for our sugar cats

Well bless your soul for being so patient with her. I can't imagine how difficult it is to have a kitty who is a picky eater (Moose will eat just about everything ). Do you remember how long it took for her to finally accept that she wasn't getting her kibble anymore?

Oh well that is good news! How does she do with the Turkey since she is a chicken fanatic? And by trouble with red meat, what do you mean? Does it upset their stomachs?

Exactly. And I switched to raw instead of regular canned food because her teeth issues happened at the same time as all the melamine poisoning in pet foods was going on. I chose raw because it seemed less likely to be involved in all that and it turned out to be a fantastic diet choice for her.

She was stubborn and refused to eat at first, it was not an easy transition, but I didn’t have any options. From what I recall she would eat a little and then refuse, because she was obviously hungry but she wanted her kibble. I did offer her rx wet diets (vet suggested, as she knew we were having trouble) to try to get her to eat something, she refused that too. I’m glad she finally decided to accept it. I don’t recall how long, but it was short enough of a time that she didn’t starve to death and thankfully didn’t get hepatic lipidosis which I didn’t know existed at the time! It felt like forever, but it was probably closer to a week or two, she would eat the food but didn’t like it. She’s never been an enthusiastic eater until recently. If Moose loves food, hopefully it will be a non issue.

The radcat link I sent you discusses red meat, it can cause tummy upset in some cats and they either can get used to it with time, or it’s just not a good fit.

She doesn’t seem to notice the difference between chicken and turkey.

 

[Mandy & Rex (GA)]

And by trouble with red meat, what do you mean? Does it upset their stomachs?

This is true for my civvie Keena. He's super sensitive to beef. Until recently, he couldn't handle any flavor changes.. but thankfully, now I can give a different flavor and not worry about him projectile vomiting minutes later on our light-colored carpet .. then having to rush to clean it up before Rex helps himself. Gross, I know. Sorry for the TMI!

 

[Bobbie And Bubba]

The +2 looks like you got insulin in him. Yeah!

If your Walmart won't sell you a single solo star pen, you can try Alan in the Supply Closet. I have purchase from him several times. He gets it to me in 2 days and no RX necessary. He sells boxes and single pens.

 

[CassAndGordy(GA)]

I have Rae covered for now regarding the pens. Hopefully this will be a short vacation from the falls for Moose.

 

[Moose (GA) & Rae]

Exactly. And I switched to raw instead of regular canned food because her teeth issues happened at the same time as all the melamine poisoning in pet foods was going on. I chose raw because it seemed less likely to be involved in all that and it turned out to be a fantastic diet choice for her.

She was stubborn and refused to eat at first, it was not an easy transition, but I didn’t have any options. From what I recall she would eat a little and then refuse, because she was obviously hungry but she wanted her kibble. I did offer her rx wet diets (vet suggested, as she knew we were having trouble) to try to get her to eat something, she refused that too. I’m glad she finally decided to accept it. I don’t recall how long, but it was short enough of a time that she didn’t starve to death and thankfully didn’t get hepatic lipidosis which I didn’t know existed at the time! It felt like forever, but it was probably closer to a week or two, she would eat the food but didn’t like it. She’s never been an enthusiastic eater until recently. If Moose loves food, hopefully it will be a non issue.

The radcat link I sent you discusses red meat, it can cause tummy upset in some cats and they either can get used to it with time, or it’s just not a good fit.

She doesn’t seem to notice the difference between chicken and turkey.

I'm so glad that it worked out well for Miss Asia!

At least she was eating a little, I can't imagine how awful it feels to feel like you're "starving" your fur baby No I don't think I will have issues with Moose eating it, but I'm curious to see how his tummy reacts if I decide to purchase one of the red meat varieties. I am considering getting the chicken and lamb. He had tummy issues when first transitioning to the wet food, that's why it took me so long to transition him. I couldn't bare to see him projectile vomit every time he ate

 

[Moose (GA) & Rae]

This is true for my civvie Keena. He's super sensitive to beef. Until recently, he couldn't handle any flavor changes.. but thankfully, now I can give a different flavor and not worry about him projectile vomiting minutes later on our light-colored carpet .. then having to rush to clean it up before Rex helps himself. Gross, I know. Sorry for the TMI!

Hmm, I wonder what changed so that now he can handle the flavor changes?

Haha, no worries about TMI! I was just telling Stacy about when I was first trying to transition Moose over to wet food and he would projectile vomit after each meal all over the beige carpet...so I totally understand!!

 

[Moose (GA) & Rae]

The +2 looks like you got insulin in him. Yeah!

If your Walmart won't sell you a single solo star pen, you can try Alan in the Supply Closet. I have purchase from him several times. He gets it to me in 2 days and no RX necessary. He sells boxes and single pens.

Hooray! At least a little something, and at least that means the old Glargine vial is still somewhat effective. At least I have something to use until the pens get here!

Thank you! I think I did see his name when I was checking out the Supply Closet yesterday, but wasn't sure which post was the reputable one and which ones are the...uh...not so reputable! @CassAndGordy is a saint and is setting me up with some pens, so I should be covered for a while but will definitely keep Alan in mind when I need to restock

 

[Moose (GA) & Rae]

I have Rae covered for now regarding the pens. Hopefully this will be a short vacation from the falls for Moose.

Thank you again! & I sure hope so, Moose was quite enjoying his stay at the falls.

 

[Mandy & Rex (GA)]

I wonder what changed so that now he can handle the flavor changes?

I don't know and I don't want to question it too much and run the risk of not being able to give 2-3 pate flavors. I have noticed that now 3 of the 4 cats (not Rex, the piggy) getting bored of one flavor.

 

[Moose (GA) & Rae]

So I won't be able to shoot tonight. Or I will have to shoot later...but that will really throw off the morning shot time tomorrow and I won't be able to check because I'll be at work. I don't like having a NS right as I am getting Moose started back on the insulin...but I had obligations that were planned before I knew Moose was going back on insulin. BF will still be at work. I expect to be home around 8pm...but that is about 2 hours after Moose's normal shot time...