3.31 Rufus *advice please*

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Sean & Rufus

Sean & Rufus

Member Since 2018
Short version-
Rufus is not eating what he is supposed to be eating, and has had about 20 treats today, along with some high carb wet food. He is at 172 as of 2 hours ago. Is that an "ok" number to be at with being on the OTJ trial? I know we don't want over 150, but since he's had so many carbs, is that an acceptable number as long as it goes down?



Long story:
Rufus has food allergies/intolerances/IBD which causes inappetance and nausea. S0 Rufus had a big day yesterday, vet and some vaccine boosters. Also had a dewormer. So anyways, he started a new med on Wednesday, Atopica. First day was great. Eating better, ate some dry food (which is a win in book, which I dont feel like typing right now). Then Thursday was going good. He ate some dry food (not too much) and I gave him his Atopica about 30 mins later. About an hour later he ate his lunch. An hour late vomited his lunch. Didn't eat real well the rest of the night. Yesterday ate his breakfast, 2 hours late Atopica. Then we went to vet. Didn't eat much lunch. Dinner ate about half. Somebody vomited overnight, guessing it was Rufus. This am wouldn't eat beyond a couple licks of food. Gave him treats, which he scarfed down. Gave Atopica. 2 hours later, tried vomiting but nothing came out. Gave 10 more treats and a cerenia. An hour later gave him lunch. Wouldn't eat. Treid a different high carb food and ate most of it.
 
Maybe a little vetty stress that will calm down. It's just been 24 hours since the vet visit? Maybe by tonight's cycle he'll come down. Are the treats high carb? From what I read the other day about probiotics, dewormers and vaccines are especially hard on the tummies of kitties all ready with GI issues. I just started giving Civvie, Forrest, Florastor daily and I think I will continue since he has a history of constipation and vomiting. Does Rufas hunt and eat his prey? Wondering why you deworm.

I am not sure what the acceptable range for AT2 for an OTJ trail. Hopefully others will weigh in and offer some advice. :bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug:
 
Sean, I apologize if you have answered this question recently - I haven't been on the Board a lot lately. Are you giving Rufus any appetite stimulator, like Mirtazapine or Cyproheptadine? With my Harvey, who had intestinal lymphoma, when he was having a bad day, the anti-nausea meds followed by Cypro was the only way to get him to eat.
 
Pepcid isn't the greatest med to give so I don't know much about it. You can give Cerenia and ondansetron at the same time and you can give onda up to three times a day.
 
Bobbie And Bubba said:
Maybe a little vetty stress that will calm down. It's just been 24 hours since the vet visit? Maybe by tonight's cycle he'll come down. Are the treats high carb? From what I read the other day about probiotics, dewormers and vaccines are especially hard on the tummies of kitties all ready with GI issues. I just started giving Civvie, Forrest, Florastor daily and I think I will continue since he has a history of constipation and vomiting. Does Rufas hunt and eat his prey? Wondering why you deworm.

I am not sure what the acceptable range for AT2 for an OTJ trail. Hopefully others will weigh in and offer some advice. :bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug:
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I think the numbers are high today form the high carb wet food and the 20 temptation treats! I only gave treats because he wasn't eating and then dry heaving and vomiting. Rufus doesn't really hunt, but Ozzie my other cat had worms multiple times now and vet thought it would be a good idea to deworm both at same time because of sharing LB.
 
Wendy&Neko said:
Pepcid isn't the greatest med to give so I don't know much about it. You can give Cerenia and ondansetron at the same time and you can give onda up to three times a day.
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Honestly, I have no idea which meds are working at which aren't. Normally he gets the onda and pepcid everyday. Cerenia as needed. IM wants me to continue on current meds, add the Atopica and then see what happens in 2 weeks. He gets a big dose of Onda. It's 8mg.
 
Tricia Cinco(GA) & Harvey said:
Sean, I apologize if you have answered this question recently - I haven't been on the Board a lot lately. Are you giving Rufus any appetite stimulator, like Mirtazapine or Cyproheptadine? With my Harvey, who had intestinal lymphoma, when he was having a bad day, the anti-nausea meds followed by Cypro was the only way to get him to eat.
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No, no app stim stimulator. We discussed it, but thought it wasn't needed yet. Most days he'll eat pretty good, but he'll never eat a novel diet and that is what we need him to do. That's why he's on the Atopica now, to hopefully calm down belly and less nauseua and in turn to eat the good foods. Unfortunelty we are going in circles. :( Atopica has a high chance of vomiting as a side effect, and I think he we need to figure out the right combo of food and timing of administering it.
 
Most high carb wet food has wheat in it, which can upset cat tummy, especially if they have IBD. Maybe try something else?

Since he's vomiting, I would do Cerenia daily. Ondansetron doesn't last that long in their system. For a cat Rufus's size, the ondansetron dose should be OK. I would call the vet and see what he/she thinks about daily Cerenia and ondansetron at least twice a day, maybe 3/4 of an hour before the main meals.
 
Wendy&Neko said:
Most high carb wet food has wheat in it, which can upset cat tummy, especially if they have IBD. Maybe try something else?

Since he's vomiting, I would do Cerenia daily. Ondansetron doesn't last that long in their system. For a cat Rufus's size, the ondansetron dose should be OK. I would call the vet and see what he/she thinks about daily Cerenia and ondansetron at least twice a day, maybe 3/4 of an hour before the main meals.
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She's ok with onda 2x day, and cerenia. I'll give that a try before meals.

I only had 1 can of that high carb food. It was part of my hypo kit. I figured I'd try it to see if he'd eat it.

Is the 172 number acceptable for the situtation? I'm kind of confused as to what numbers are acceptable OTJ. Is it ok to go beyond the 150 as long as they get back down to normal numbers?
 
Tricia Cinco(GA) & Harvey said:
I had to do this with Harvey. I would also revisit the Cypro (I prefer it to Mirtz, which made my cats hyper) idea. Was a real game-changer for us.
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See the reason why I thought we didn't need it is because he has the desire to eat, it's just sometimes he has the nausea sypmtoms as soon as you put the food out. I really don't understand him. He could be on cerenia, onda, and pepcid and still be nauseous.
 
If he comes back down, it's fine. We had one kitty, who HATED travel, go red after a several hour car ride. Then back to green the next day. My civie once got over 220'at the vet. Stress happens.
 
Wendy&Neko said:
If he comes back down, it's fine. We had one kitty, who HATED travel, go red after a several hour car ride. Then back to green the next day. My civie once got over 220'at the vet. Stress happens.
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I guess my question is, if he eats treats and/or kibble and gets above the 150 but then goes down again is it ok. I know your stance (and most others) about dry food, but going forward it might (will) be part of the mix, at least until his nausea goes away.. It's about the only way I can get him to eat novel proteins.
 
Wendy&Neko said:
Classic nausea symptoms are being hungry, then either sniffing or doing a lick then turning away. You need to address the nausea first. Timing is everything. Onda doesn't last, so give it a while before food so it has time to work before the meal gets out down.
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That's exactly what he does, along with the lip smacking. Do you think I should cut his onda in half and do multiple times daily, or keep at the 8mg? Or just test and see what works?
 
You're right, we discourage feeding dry, but eating trumps everything. Not eating can kill them pretty quickly. I know - I lost a cat that way. You'll just have to figure out the best way to get him to eat while limiting the dry as much as you can. Only you know what works for Rufus. If you have to resume insulin to get him through this, it isn't the end of the world. The important thing is to keep him safe and as healthy as possible.

Sean & Rufus said:
Do you think I should cut his onda in half and do multiple times daily, or keep at the 8mg? Or just test and see what works?
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ECID. I had to give Harvey 4mg of Ondansetron together with a dose of Cerenia to kick the nausea. Experimenting with the combination is the only way to see what will work for Rufus.

ETA: You aren't giving the SEB within two hours of the nausea meds (or any other meds), are you? Cause it can block their absorption.
 
Tricia Cinco(GA) & Harvey said:
You're right, we discourage feeding dry, but eating trumps everything. Not eating can kill them pretty quickly. I know - I lost a cat that way. You'll just have to figure out the best way to get him to eat while limiting the dry as much as you can. Only you know what works for Rufus. If you have to resume insulin to get him through this, it isn't the end of the world. The important thing is to keep him safe and as healthy as possible.


ECID. I had to give Harvey 4mg of Ondansetron together with a dose of Cerenia to kick the nausea. Experimenting with the combination is the only way to see what will work for Rufus.

ETA: You aren't giving the SEB within two hours of the nausea meds (or any other meds), are you? Cause it can block their absorption.
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Oh, I know about the needing to eat! That's why I always push food on him, and sometimes I wonder if that is why he doesn't want to eat. He has lost 4 ounces since Feb 14 but that was between 3 different scales since then. We want him to lose weight, but he good way :)

Sometimes I wonder if he gets too many meds. I read that pepcid can sometimes backfire AND cause issues. I don't know. As far as SEB, I have it and want to use it, but IM vet said not to right now.
 
Sean & Rufus said:
As far as SEB, I have it and want to use it, but IM vet said not to right now.
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Oh, okay, I saw it in your signature block and wondered.

I agree about the "too many meds"! I faced that with my cats, too. In 2015 I was dealing with four elderly cats, two were diabetic, all four had cancer, one with kidney disease, etc. This is my kitchen counter:
upload_2018-3-31_14-40-40.png
 
Tricia Cinco(GA) & Harvey said:
Oh, okay, I saw it in your signature block and wondered.

I agree about the "too many meds"! I faced that with my cats, too. In 2015 I was dealing with four elderly cats, two were diabetic, all four had cancer, one with kidney disease, etc. This is my kitchen counter: View attachment 35063
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Oh wow! My cupboard is starting to look like that! :) I myself HATE taking meds, I feel so bad for Rufus. He hates taking the pills and liquids, but generally does pretty good with it. Just wish we knew what his issue is exactly and treat that instead of throwing darts and hoping something sticks.

Glad you mention my signature, I should update it!
 
fwiw, temptation treats are very high carb. That would explain the numbers earlier.

In the future, maybe try other things first....
after the meds, ( ondansetron and cerenia / and cypro_)

freeze dried meat treats
cheeese
scrambled egg
favorite seafood
 
rhiannon and shadow (GA) said:
fwiw, temptation treats are very high carb. That would explain the numbers earlier.

In the future, maybe try other things first....
after the meds, ( ondansetron and cerenia / and cypro_)

freeze dried meat treats
cheeese
scrambled egg
favorite seafood
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thanks! I know the treats are high in carbs, I just wanted to get something in his belly that I knew he'd eat. I just wanted to know if going over 150 is acceptable.

He is SUPER picky right now (since August). He used to eat anything everything, now everything makes nauseous even with the meds.

Won't eat freeze dried treats :(
I don't eat eggs :(
Can't have seafood :(

Beleive me, I've tried about everything.
 
Sean & Rufus said:
Do you think I should cut his onda in half and do multiple times daily, or keep at the 8mg?
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Try and see what works. For his size you could do 8 mg twice a day, but you can see if 4 mg is enough.

What freeze dried treats have you tried? There are lots of options out there. Have you tried freeze dried raw? Just mentioning it because that's an option for some novel proteins if you don't want to or have tried regular raw. We had one kibble addict cat go OTJ on freeze dried raw. The main problem with feeding kibble as a mainstay, is that it'll make his pancreas work harder. We've seen many cats fall out of remission with just a little dry.
 
Wendy&Neko said:
Try and see what works. For his size you could do 8 mg twice a day, but you can see if 4 mg is enough.

What freeze dried treats have you tried? There are lots of options out there. Have you tried freeze dried raw? Just mentioning it because that's an option for some novel proteins if you don't want to or have tried regular raw. We had one kibble addict cat go OTJ on freeze dried raw. The main problem with feeding kibble as a mainstay, is that it'll make his pancreas work harder. We've seen many cats fall out of remission with just a little dry.
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We tried a Petsmart rabbit one, and 2 from another store a beef variety and a venison. Wouldn't even look twice at them. Another hard thing is that since he had dental issues, texture and consistency has became an issue. He'll eat treats (tempatations), and is recently begun kind of eating dry food, but will not any wet food that isn't liquified. The dental specialist prettty much said "make him eat what you give him" but I told her and the IM that I don't think I can do that, since nausea is in play. I have to make sure he eats.

I'm really not trying to take the easy way out, and I don't want Rufus on the juice, but I don't see a way that he woulnd't eat dry food if it's out for Ozzie. My goal with Rufus is to feed him 2 meals of wet (3 if I'm still not working), and he can free feed beyond that. A big part of this is getting the Atopica to do its job. I noticed tonight his belly isn't as grumbly as usual, so that's good. I need his nausea to go away and get him back on a novel wet diet. If that doesn't work, that is when he'll have to eat novel kibble.

We are going to a dermatologist also. I'm not super excited about it, and really not expecting answers to his issues, but it sure would be nice if they had any insight.
 
Wendy&Neko said:
Many kitties like the Orijen treats. They have a wild boar and lamb ones that are single protein. They aren't crunchy hard.
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I can give them a try. I actually was looking at their dry food as a possibilty but couldn't find it anywhere near me. Part of me wonders if he doesn't like them because they don't smell?
 
you didn't say he or you didn't eat cheese.
most cats love that and it can be smelly enough to be attractive. might be worth a try....

i was just worred because enough dry of any kind, treats or food, could end that remission status.
But.... all things considered..... eating is foremost important.
 
rhiannon and shadow (GA) said:
you didn't say he or you didn't eat cheese.
most cats love that and it can be smelly enough to be attractive. might be worth a try....

i was just worred because enough dry of any kind, treats or food, could end that remission status.
But.... all things considered..... eating is foremost important.
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I know, I totally get that. And I do appreciate the help and advice. Not sure if he'd eat cheese. He's never had it before I don't think. I just worry about that being an allergen too. I read today that dairy, fish, beef are the most like allergies. I know (95%) he's allergic to turkey. And normally I don't give too many treats. Usually just a couple a day, if at all. When he gets his adequan and his Atopica he gets a treat (or a couple). What kind of cheese? Like shredded or american?
 
well my current kitty comes running for monterey jack. I can't even pull it out of the fridge without company. Cheddar is good.... some even like those fancier smellier cheeses. Some kitties love parmesan. you just have to experiment.

Not all cats love scrambled eggs but my Shadow did. I don't like eggs myself. I was forced to eat them by my father during custody visits.
But my dh eats them and Shadow would follow him everywhere begging.....

Does Rufus ever beg for something you are eating? In your face kinda begging??
 
rhiannon and shadow (GA) said:
Does Rufus ever beg for something you are eating? In your face kinda begging??
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He used to ALL THE TIME up until last August, when everything fell a part. He very rarely gets excited about food like he used to. Sometimes, maybe once a week. he'll act interested in something, but then won't eat it. It's a very strange thing. He's had allergies for years and used to vomit, but the vomiting stopped about 1.5 years ago, but the itching and gnawing still continues. He very gradually stopped eating dry and then wet. Always nauseous, not too interested in food. He had teeth issues, those are supposedly fixed. He does have tooth resorbtion though. Had pancreatituis. Was on steroids. Helped with the itching, but not the eating. Developed diabetes. Now had possible IBD/lympohoma. IM thinks if we get him on a novel diet it will calm down the GI issues. Doesn't think it's lymphoma. She won't put him back on steroids.

He was a mess for about 5 months, and is almost back to his old self, except the nausea and being picky is still there.
 
Have you ever tried Bonito flakes (they are fish, so if he can't eat fish, they're out)? Cinco LOVED them.

Also, my kittens (and all their siblings and parents) adore this human grade freeze-dried chicken. Bonus - if they don't like it you can hang on to it for emergency rations. :p

I so understand what you're dealing with. Harvey became very difficult about eating when his CKD got bad, as did my civvie Minka when she was on chemo. It was a constant worry for me and I can't tell you how many cans of cat food went down the garbage disposal. Hang in there.

Sending appy and anti-itching vines.
 
Tricia Cinco(GA) & Harvey said:
Have you ever tried Bonito flakes (they are fish, so if he can't eat fish, they're out)? Cinco LOVED them.

Also, my kittens (and all their siblings and parents) adore this human grade freeze-dried chicken. Bonus - if they don't like it you can hang on to it for emergency rations. :p

I so understand what you're dealing with. Harvey became very difficult about eating when his CKD got bad, as did my civvie Minka when she was on chemo. It was a constant worry for me and I can't tell you how many cans of cat food went down the garbage disposal. Hang in there.

Sending appy and anti-itching vines.
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Thank you! I'm hoping it gets better, I keep saying 2 steps forward, 1 step back. Just crossing fingers this atopica works.
 
Nicole Z said:
How’s Rufus feeling this morning?
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He's doing ok. Only ate half his wet food, but then went and ate dry food, so I'll take that as a good sign :) His stomach doesn't grumble as much after he eats, so that must be the Atopica calming it down. Still bites and sctaches, but not as bad. I gave the Atopica to him about 40 mins ago and am leaving soon, so hopefully he won't vomit while I am gone. I did give an ondansetron this am to help him if the Atopica make him nauseous.
 
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