Roller Coaster Readings

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AmFon

AmFon

Member Since 2018
My cat Ringtail (male, age 5 years) was diagnose with diabetes in Oct. 2017. He was put on .5 of ProZinc. His vet now has him up to 4.0 units twice a day. His overall health is good: stable weight, lots of energy, shiny coat, sassy cattitude. ( : But his numbers have more ups and downs than the Olympic HalfPipe event! Our vet advised me not to give the injection if he reads below 200. I've seen readings as low as 36, as high as 600+.
Here is a 5 day sample: Feb. 11- AM 177 PM 252 Feb. 12 AM 431 PM 474
Feb. 13 AM 87 PM 536 Feb. 14 AM 362 PM 66
Feb. 15 AM 600+ PM 441

I am feeding FancyFeast Classic Pate twice a day, as well as 9 Lives canned tuna occasionally. I would appreciated any advice or input on the numbers, as well as feeding advice. Should he be fed smaller meals more often? Should I feed him "home-cooked" instead? HELP!!!
 
The Olympic Half-Pipe is my new favorite event! Those athletes are CRAZY!!!!

Welcome to our little Prozinc group!

Fancy Feast Classics is fine, though I always recommend more meals during the day to helps stabilize BG. Just feeding twice/day leaves too much bouncing and diving in most cats.

It sounds like he's likely on too much insulin, although it could be a couple of other things as well. Great job home testing and recording the data. We use a handy, color-coded spreadsheet to keep our data and it makes it super easy to find patterns in response and figure out what to do. Well, the spreadsheet is easy -- the cats are still complicated ;)

Here is a link to how to set up the spreadsheet (you'll need a google/gmail account), and then follow the directions here:
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/

And then this explains what each column is for:
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/understanding-the-spreadsheet-grid.156606/

And if you're not tech savvy or if you run into any trouble, just post here and ask for help. We have a couple of folks who can help get it set up for you.

If you can just input like the past week or two of data, we can start to take a look - you don't need to go all the way back to October (although if you're like most of us, watching the colors pop up is so much fun you might want to o_O) Okay, okay, I'm kind of a data nerd. Probably not that much fun...:p
 
My husband is also a data nerd...maybe I'll introduce him to the spreadsheet. :) Any idea of how often a day to feed? 3 times a day....every 3 hours, 4 hours, or just try and see? I've been to two different vets, both insist on twice a day, but it's not working. And poor Ringtail boy is hungry quite often.
 
How is his weight? If you put out a can of food, does he inhale the whole thing? Has he ever been a grazer?

I leave out canned or raw food all day and let my cats graze on it. If yours snarfs the whole thing at once though, we can talk about some tricks and timing. Also, are either of you home during the day? Or gone for work/other obligations?
 
Welcome! I have a link in my signature to the AAHA guidelines for diabetes management. They say that feeding four times a day is ideal, and if your cat is underweight, free-feeding is fine.
 
Most folks here feed several small meals a day or free feed. It depends on what works best for you and your schedules/your cat. I do 2 meals a day, but my cat free feed on those meals...I just put out fresh meals morning and evening (we feed raw) and leave it out. They like being able to go back and forth and eat as they are hungry and they don't hoover it all up at once (though they did when we first switched to raw) so I have no qualms about letting them self-regulate how much/when they eat.
 
Djamila said:
How is his weight? If you put out a can of food, does he inhale the whole thing? Has he ever been a grazer?

I leave out canned or raw food all day and let my cats graze on it. If yours snarfs the whole thing at once though, we can talk about some tricks and timing. Also, are either of you home during the day? Or gone for work/other obligations?
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Ringtail definitely scarfs his down quickly. I also have two other cats who are grazers. (All three are indoor only.) My husband will put down some dry food for the grazers in the basement and close the stairwell door till they are done. I am a teacher, so I'm gone until about 4pm. My husband is always home.
 
Hooray! Another teacher!!! There are a whole bunch of us on here!

So if your husband is home, he can break the meals up into snacks. Is 15 pounds a good weight for him? Or does he need to gain or lose? If he needs to gain, start by adding an extra can of food. So start by feeding three cans/day instead of 2. Then break that total amount of food into probably five or six meals or so - breakfast, snack, snack, dinner, before bed snack. If either of you get up during the night, a middle of the night snack is great too. But if you don't naturally get up during the night, that usually gets missed because sleep is important.

The easier option is a timed feeder. You can put five meals in it and just let it open at whatever times you program. Then your husband isn't chained to the house all day, and you can both sleep through the night!
 
Djamila said:
Hooray! Another teacher!!! There are a whole bunch of us on here!

So if your husband is home, he can break the meals up into snacks. Is 15 pounds a good weight for him? Or does he need to gain or lose? If he needs to gain, start by adding an extra can of food. So start by feeding three cans/day instead of 2. Then break that total amount of food into probably five or six meals or so - breakfast, snack, snack, dinner, before bed snack. If either of you get up during the night, a middle of the night snack is great too. But if you don't naturally get up during the night, that usually gets missed because sleep is important.

The easier option is a timed feeder. You can put five meals in it and just let it open at whatever times you program. Then your husband isn't chained to the house all day, and you can both sleep through the night!
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Djamila said:
Hooray! Another teacher!!! There are a whole bunch of us on here!

So if your husband is home, he can break the meals up into snacks. Is 15 pounds a good weight for him? Or does he need to gain or lose? If he needs to gain, start by adding an extra can of food. So start by feeding three cans/day instead of 2. Then break that total amount of food into probably five or six meals or so - breakfast, snack, snack, dinner, before bed snack. If either of you get up during the night, a middle of the night snack is great too. But if you don't naturally get up during the night, that usually gets missed because sleep is important.

The easier option is a timed feeder. You can put five meals in it and just let it open at whatever times you program. Then your husband isn't chained to the house all day, and you can both sleep through the night!
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I think 15 pounds is a good weight for him, it would not hurt for him to lose another pound or so. My husband actually works from home and is up all night. I'm thinking feeding every six hours, a can in the morning and night, with a half-can in between. (Three cans total.) If that doesn't work I may break it into six.
Yeah, it's a bit of a bummer having to get up at my usual time even on weekends, to feed the cat...I tell him he should really appreciate me. Ha ha.
I suppose there are so many teachers on here because we like to learn, and are used to having to find out information for ourselves. I did put info on the spreadsheet, but lost it somewhere in cyberspace. I'll get hubby on it later to see if we can find and post it. Tech isn't my gift. lol
 
Lol...I agree about having to wake up early on the weekends. Although to be fair, they usually woke me up too early anyway, even before Sam was diagnosed!

I agree about what draws a lot of teachers here. That and we are all so well trained in looking at data these days! :rolleyes:

I hope DH can help you find your spreadsheet.

I was just looking over your numbers again, and I'm really concerned that he's getting too much insulin. In general we say that when a cat is newly diagnosed, not to give an injection if he's under 200. I think those super high 400-600 numbers are likely caused because he got an injection when he was too low and went hypo. A cat's body can usually handle a couple of those, but if it keeps happening, (and I don't mean to be alarmist here), but it can kill them.

I would recommend getting a couple of tests during the day today, especially if you can get a test or two around four hours after the shot, and around six hours after the shot (although whenever you can would be helpful) and posting the numbers you're seeing. I would also strongly recommend lowering his evening dose by quite a bit - maybe down to 2u?
 
Former teacher here myself! We all congregate here I guess.

I hated getting up early on the weekends when we first had this diagnosis. However, I now get up, feed, and then go back to bed (no diabetic). I usually get up at the normal time, feed them, hang around for a bit to ensure eating and not vomiting, then go back to sleep for a few hours. Not feasible for all I know since some folks can't go back to sleep after getting up, but it's a thought!

I agree with Djamila after checking out your numbers. It looks like you're seeing some bouncing numbers after some very low number events. What do you think of her suggestion of lowering the dose?
 
I agree with lowering the dose too. 2 units sounds like a good idea.
I don't know how I survived without my auto feeder. Makes it so much easier to feed snacks.
 
I agree with the others about the dose possibly being too high. I like the idea of trying 2 units twice a day for a few days and getting a spreadsheet set up to track BG numbers. :)
 
There are a lot of members that are doing this all on their own.
I'm lucky enough to have DH helping me and a woman I consider family helping when we both can't get home to test.
 
Me too - alone and with a disability that has destroyed my balance and robbed a lot of the strength from my hands. There are many people who struggle to do this.
 
Djamila said:
Lol...I agree about having to wake up early on the weekends. Although to be fair, they usually woke me up too early anyway, even before Sam was diagnosed!

I agree about what draws a lot of teachers here. That and we are all so well trained in looking at data these days! :rolleyes:

I hope DH can help you find your spreadsheet.

I was just looking over your numbers again, and I'm really concerned that he's getting too much insulin. In general we say that when a cat is newly diagnosed, not to give an injection if he's under 200. I think those super high 400-600 numbers are likely caused because he got an injection when he was too low and went hypo. A cat's body can usually handle a couple of those, but if it keeps happening, (and I don't mean to be alarmist here), but it can kill them.

I would recommend getting a couple of tests during the day today, especially if you can get a test or two around four hours after the shot, and around six hours after the shot (although whenever you can would be helpful) and posting the numbers you're seeing. I would also strongly recommend lowering his evening dose by quite a bit - maybe down to 2u?
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I am home today; we are off for President's Day. Here are his weekend numbers: Sat. Feb. 17 AM 525 (injection 4.0) PM 370 (injection 3.5)
Sun. Feb. 18 AM 159 No injection PM 565 (injection 3.5) Mon. Feb. 19 8:45 am 103 No injection 10:30am 473 (injection 3.0) I agree that I think he may be getting too much; I also wonder if it takes 14 hours to wear off instead of 12. So the number will look good at 12, but 2 hours later it's going up.
 
Kris & Teasel said:
I agree with the others about the dose possibly being too high. I like the idea of trying 2 units twice a day for a few days and getting a spreadsheet set up to track BG numbers. :)
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I am weaning him down slowly a half unit at a time.
 
When the dose is too high it can last longer than 12 hours. Once you get to the right dose, you will start seeing the usual prozinc "smile" curve. Goes down in the middle and starts going back up toward the end of the cycle.
You don't have to go down in dose slowly. But you can if that's what you want to do.
2 units could end up being too much as well but the best way to find out is testing, of course you know this already.
Once you start seeing two shootable preshot numbers, I would be very careful and monitor on that second preshot.
Say you give 3 units on a 400 preshot and you get a 250 preshot the next cycle-- if you give 3 units again you'll want to test more often to make sure that's not too much. If the preshots are similar, it might not need as much monitoring but I would monitor in the beginning of the cycle just to make sure he's not going to throw a curve ball.
That's why I was thinking 2 units would be a good place to start...
Hope I didn't confuse anyone. Sometimes I type out my thoughts and it looks like a tangled piece of yarn!:joyful:
 
StephG said:
When the dose is too high it can last longer than 12 hours. Once you get to the right dose, you will start seeing the usual prozinc "smile" curve. Goes down in the middle and starts going back up toward the end of the cycle.
You don't have to go down in dose slowly. But you can if that's what you want to do.
2 units could end up being too much as well but the best way to find out is testing, of course you know this already.
Once you start seeing two shootable preshot numbers, I would be very careful and monitor on that second preshot.
Say you give 3 units on a 400 preshot and you get a 250 preshot the next cycle-- if you give 3 units again you'll want to test more often to make sure that's not too much. If the preshots are similar, it might not need as much monitoring but I would monitor in the beginning of the cycle just to make sure he's not going to throw a curve ball.
That's why I was thinking 2 units would be a good place to start...
Hope I didn't confuse anyone. Sometimes I type out my thoughts and it looks like a tangled piece of yarn!:joyful:
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I followed you fine. Thanks for the info.
 
Just wanted to check in and see how Ringtail is doing and if you've had any luck getting the spreadsheet going? Let us know if there is any way we can help. It'd be great to see him getting some consistently safe numbers. Ideally, you want to shoot both AM and PM doses as skipping here and there can make them feel a little icky. But it can be a little tricky to figure out what dose can be administered twice/day and keep Ringtail in safe, healthy numbers throughout.
 
It's driving me crazy!! I'm home today due to winter weather. I just can't find any rhyme or reason to his numbers.
Feb. 20 Feb. 21 6:45am 400 Shot 3.0 Feb. 22 6:30am 158
7:30 am HI (600+) gave shot 2.5 6:15pm 95 8:30 am 504 Shot 3.0
8:30 am 451 9:30 pm 545 Shot 3.0 12:30 pm 564 !!!!!!!
6:15 pm HI Gave shot 3.0
11:00 pm 351

And that 564 is before food...I was going to give him his "snack"...do I ? Or not when it's that high? And usually I'm not home to check if it's high or not.
Argh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I found the spread sheet, but saw that I need to enter the info. differently. I'll try to work on it this afternoon.
 
AmFon said:
It's driving me crazy!! I'm home today due to winter weather. I just can't find any rhyme or reason to his numbers.
Feb. 20 Feb. 21 6:45am 400 Shot 3.0 Feb. 22 6:30am 158
7:30 am HI (600+) gave shot 2.5 6:15pm 95 8:30 am 504 Shot 3.0
8:30 am 451 9:30 pm 545 Shot 3.0 12:30 pm 564 !!!!!!!
6:15 pm HI Gave shot 3.0
11:00 pm 351

And that 564 is before food...I was going to give him his "snack"...do I ? Or not when it's that high? And usually I'm not home to check if it's high or not.
Argh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I found the spread sheet, but saw that I need to enter the info. differently. I'll try to work on it this afternoon.
Click to expand...
Note: when posted, this squished my columns together. The info should be read vertically.
 
That’s why we really wait for the spreadsheet. The colors and columns make it possible to see patterns that are very hard to discern from a list of numbers. I don’t mean to just keep harping on that, but it will make a ton of difference when we can see them clearly.
 
I understand! Hopefully time and improved skill will allow for it soon. (Plus hubby has been on this computer for skype meetings at work for the last three days...)
 
AmFon said:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...OQ-s86Cr6FbAov8pGK8L4BP5ihVZE8cPSnVyo/pubhtml I think this is it!!! You have no idea how much this teased my brain! BTW, the reason for all the zeros was that his vet said no shot if the reading was under 200...
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Hurray! Now - more homework for you: please set up your signature. That's the light grey text you see under our posts. Click on your name in the upper right of this page then click on "signature" in the menu that drops down. A text box will appear. Put in this information: kitty's name, age, date of diagnosis, insulin you use, glucose meter you use, what he eats, any other health issues/meds he has. Then, open your spreadsheet, copy the URL at the top of its page and paste it into the text box where you entered the other info. Save. We'll be able to see all of it including the link to your SS at a glance when you post.
 
Great job! Putting it in your signature like Kris mentioned will help..then we can see it always. And now that it's all set up, you just have to enter numbers as you get them and they'll be laid out beautifully!

Looking at it I'm definitely thinking your dose is too high. I'm glad you're bringing the dose down. His numbers are following the classic pattern of bouncing. He has a low number (blue or green) and then the next cycle or the next day he goes super high...and he stays high and flat for a bit. Then another low, another high and flat...etc.

Have we gone over bouncing with you? I can't recall...here's something Kris wrote that explains it really well:

Here's how it works:
  1. BG goes low OR lower than usual OR drops too quickly.
  2. Kitty's body panics and thinks there's danger (OMG! My BG is too low!).
  3. Complex physiologic processes take glycogen stored in the liver (I think of it as "bounce fuel"), convert it to glucose and dump it into the bloodstream to counteract the perceived dangerously low BG.
  4. These processes go into overdrive in kitties who are bounce prone and keep the BG propped up varying lengths of time (AKA bouncing).
  5. Bounce prone kitty repeats this until his body learns that healthy low numbers are safe. Some kitties are slow learners.
  6. Too high a dose of insulin can keep them bouncing over and over until the " bounce fuel" runs out and they crash - ie., have a hypo episode. That's why we worry so much about kitties that have had too high a starting dose prescribed by the vet and the owner isn't home testing
It's fairly common and considering you're getting those low numbers at preshot, it definitely shows the dose is too high. It will hopefully settle down some once you get him down to a better dose that doesn't cause him to go so low.
 
Another thing that's making his numbers erratic is the frequent doses changes and sometimes they change by a lot. I'd suggest choosing a moderate dose and giving it both AM and PM for several days. The goal is to get him more settled in his responses to ProZinc. It might be worth knocking the dose back to 2 u twice a day. That might be on the low side but it can be carefully increased in 0.25 u increments after a couple of days.
 
Kris & Teasel said:
Hurray! Now - more homework for you: please set up your signature. That's the light grey text you see under our posts. Click on your name in the upper right of this page then click on "signature" in the menu that drops down. A text box will appear. Put in this information: kitty's name, age, date of diagnosis, insulin you use, glucose meter you use, what he eats, any other health issues/meds he has. Then, open your spreadsheet, copy the URL at the top of its page and paste it into the text box where you entered the other info. Save. We'll be able to see all of it including the link to your SS at a glance when you post.
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I'm sorry, but how do I open the spreadsheet and copy the URL into the text box? I'm so tech dense. I got the signature to post.
 
Question: What do I do if his reading is below 200? Esp. if it's under 100...do I wait and give it later? Skip it entirely? I'm not usually home in the daytime to do that. I feed, give shot and go to work.
 
Great job on the spreadsheet and signature!!!! Here is a little video on how to link the spreadsheet:

If he's under 100, you need to skip. Although lowering the dose will likely help with that issue. If he's under 200, you can stall for 20-30 minutes without feeding and test again. If the number is rising, and is getting into upper 100's you can shoot, if it isn't rising, then you need to stall again. Since you have to go to work and dont' have time to wait forever, is your hubby able to help with testing and shooting? Or is he needle/cat averse? ;) If he can help, great. If he can't, then you can shoot a reduced dose or skip. As you collect more data, you will learn what your kitty needs. Some kitties can take injections on lower numbers and be fine (like mine). Other kitties will go too low and need reduced doses. It takes some time and monitoring to figure out. We can help you sort that out as you go - just post when you get a PS number that isn't comfortable and we can help suggest what might work and keep him safe.

I absolutely agree with Kris and Rachel about lowering the dose. Right now the dose is too high and it's causing him to bounce so much that you can't even tell what he needs. Drop back to 2u on the next cycle and let's see what he gets over the next few days. That should give an idea if he needs to go up or down from there.
 
Can I ask what time do you usually shoot and what time zone are you in? It helps to us to know that so we can try to check in.
 
Next time you open your spreadsheet go to the top of its page and highlight/copy the web address from the bar at the top. Then come back to this page and click on your name and "signature". In the text box where you typed in the info we see now under your posts, paste the web address of your spreadsheet in there. Click save. We'll now be able to see it in your signature text. As it is now we have to go search for the link in your earlier posts.
 
Rachel said:
Can I ask what time do you usually shoot and what time zone are you in? It helps to us to know that so we can try to check in.
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I'm in the central time zone, just east of Omaha, NE. Usually shoot between 6:30 and 7:00 am and pm.
 
Okay, another question from not so tech-saavy me. How do I get my spreadsheet to allow me to update my information? I click on the boxes now, but nothing happens.
Ringtail's reading yesterday (2/23/18) were as follows: 7am 110 7:40 136 8:20am gave his shot 2.0 units 7:15pm 600+
Feb. 24 7:40am 477 gave shot 2.0units 3:30pm 133
Except for the nasty 600+ reading last night, the numbers aren't too bad. He did surprise me by throwing up a few minutes ago. He doesn't usually do that, and I thought it was blood at first. On closer inspection, however, it looked more like the tuna he had for his snack a couple of hours ago. I caught him ingesting something (??) from the carpet about a half-hour earlier, so I suspect this may have been the cause. He will eat hair, dead bugs, anything sometimes. (Dumb cat...lol)
 
Make sure you're signed into Google. It won't let you edit if you aren't signed in.

Did you get a test around the time he threw up? Just curious if it would give any hints about why he isn't feeling well.
 
If you open your spreadsheet and look in the top right corner, you should be able to sign in from there.
 
Kris & Teasel said:
That green tonight is too low for insulin. I suggest you drop the dose to 1 u tomorrow AM.
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Did not give him any. Just checked him again, it's up to 118. Still too low. Thing is, during the night it is likely to spike again, but I hate to keep sticking him all night.
 
AmFon said:
Did not give him any. Just checked him again, it's up to 118. Still too low. Thing is, during the night it is likely to spike again, but I hate to keep sticking him all night.
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Don’t worry about night time numbers tonight after no shot. I’d try 1 u tomorrow to see if you can get him levelled out.
 
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