Getting a baseline for Wilbur

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Kris & Teasel said:
Teasel is extremely bouncy and hard to regulate. He was started on Lantus but I was clueless and only doing curves for my vet - that revealed nothing about his responses. He was switched to ProZinc after his DKA 2 years ago and lived on his trampoline despite my attempts using FDMB help to get him evened out. I then went back to Lantus and succeeded in getting him in better numbers but keeping him there required a lot of testing and intervening with snacks. He didn't feel well on Lantus - lethargic and sometimes irritable. I can buy insulin OTC here in Canada so I took it upon myself to switch to Levemir. My vet wasn't involved at all. He's happier on Lev but still bouncy.

Wilbur might do better on Lantus or Lev but they're expensive in the US. A lot of people there order from a reputable Canadian pharmacy in Vancouver, Marks Marine Pharmacy, for about half the cost in the US.
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I just looked at Teasel's 2017 SS..Is this how Merck and DVM expected VETSULIN to react?? When I google AN IDEAL 12 BG CURVE it showed a perfect bowl 370 down down down and the back up to 370!!!! Is that suppose to be okay?? Just curiously looking for pet charts that are or were on VETSULIN...since I am not happy with the first 2 days starting it. Maybe I will go back to Lantus if this contiues 5-7 days like this..Any experiences that I should know about??? Thanks
 
johnt said:
I'm going to. I don't remember by reading but what I found strange was, the Monoject syringes I assumed were smaller diameter. because when I went to pull insulin it was always a chore, even if I injected air prior. But with the cheaper ones I posted the pic above, i never had to prime the vial at all, it pulled the insulin right in. I'm hoping to avoid the prior issue because it wa annoying :)

Then i read the labels and they're the same

But at $18 shipped it's worth a trial run.
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Is Wilbur on VETSULIN TOO??? Does every cat on Vetsulin have am and pm BG numbers like this???
 
ELLIOTT & Fran Munschauer said:
I just looked at Teasel's 2017 SS..Is this how Merck and DVM expected VETSULIN to react?? When I google AN IDEAL 12 BG CURVE it showed a perfect bowl 370 down down down and the back up to 370!!!! Is that suppose to be okay?? Just curiously looking for pet charts that are or were on VETSULIN...since I am not happy with the first 2 days starting it. Maybe I will go back to Lantus if this contiues 5-7 days like this..Any experiences that I should know about??? Thanks
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Teasel has never been on Vetsulin.
 
ELLIOTT & Fran Munschauer said:
Is Wilbur on VETSULIN TOO??? Does every cat on Vetsulin have am and pm BG numbers like this???
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Wilbur started on a pen for one month (no idea the name). Then moved to ProZinc in 2012. Moved to Vetsulin in Oct 2016 and has remained there.

Unfortunately I wasn't able to test wilbur during the ProZinc time. Only since feb this year.
 
Starting to get mad at myself. I'm weaning him off the temptations. I only give them to him twice a day now.

I started reducing the amount now.

Last night I gave him some after the PMPS.

This morning i went to find him to do the blood and he had been sitting at the bowl. Apparently he didnt finish his temptations last night and came back this morning to finish them off, surely destroying his BG count.

Anyone know how fast it will register in a test after eating those?

Anyway, i'm getting much better at poking so it's getting easier. Recently I've gotten +2 +3 +5 +6 I think maybe I should do a +7 today. No? since I'm pretty comfortable at his numbers during the +2 to +6 range. Or should i keep testing there?
 
Maybe a half hour to an hour? I think they are probably similar to kibble, which takes a little longer than wet food, to be processed and hit the bloodstream, but they might be faster.

Don't beat yourself up! Any effects will pass, the important thing is that you are observant enough to notice when he's eating them, so you can take it into account. You're doing great with all of this!
 
Nan & Amber said:
Maybe a half hour to an hour? I think they are probably similar to kibble, which takes a little longer than wet food, to be processed and hit the bloodstream, but they might be faster.

Don't beat yourself up! Any effects will pass, the important thing is that you are observant enough to notice when he's eating them, so you can take it into account. You're doing great with all of this!
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Well thank you! It's daunting but i've got a couple bonuses. I'm around wilbur 24/7 since i work for myself at home, and he won't leave my side.

Course the issue I've had is he's afraid to come in to my office because one of the other cats smacked him. he used to lay about 2 feet from me 24/7. because when i went to bed he'd plop down on my legs.

Now I have to hunt him down. but he'll get over it
 
@Nan & Amber @Kris & Teasel one question. I see many people's SS's show remission to the point of no shots needed. I would assume as high as Wilburs numbers are and as high a dose of Insulin i give him hoping for remission to that point is likely not going to happen, correct? Don't worry, it doesn't scare me, I just want to get him as healthy as possible. he's already 10 with cataracts in both eyes. Got to do what i can.
 
ELLIOTT & Fran Munschauer said:
Is Wilbur on VETSULIN TOO??? Does every cat on Vetsulin have am and pm BG numbers like this???
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I thought I should add something. i wouldn't put much weight on my SS numbers for Wilbur. he's been unregulated for 6 years and we're just now past the stage of him letting me test.

The numbers you see on my chart are almost all I have in total. So my numbers are nowhere near stable yet.
 
Well, the truth of the matter is that it's fairly unlikely that Wilbur will get to remission at this point. It is not impossible, it's just that there are a lot more roadblocks in the way than there are with a newly-diagnosed cat.

The way to get a cat into remission is to basically get them into normal (or close to normal) numbers most of the time, which gives the pancreas a rest and a chance to heal. With a newly-diagnosed cat, the healing process can be quite fast once you remove the stress of too-high BGs. With a longer-term diabetic like Wilbur, it's a lot harder, and often it just doesn't happen.

The good news is, the goal to keep him as healthy as possible by getting him into good regulation overlaps with the requirements for remission, so the thing to do is just keep doing what you're doing. You just never know, he may surprise you down the road, and in the meantime you are giving him a good, healthy life!
 
Nan & Amber said:
Well, the truth of the matter is that it's fairly unlikely that Wilbur will get to remission at this point. It is not impossible, it's just that there are a lot more roadblocks in the way than there are with a newly-diagnosed cat.

The way to get a cat into remission is to basically get them into normal (or close to normal) numbers most of the time, which gives the pancreas a rest and a chance to heal. With a newly-diagnosed cat, the healing process can be quite fast once you remove the stress of too-high BGs. With a longer-term diabetic like Wilbur, it's a lot harder, and often it just doesn't happen.

The good news is, the goal to keep him as healthy as possible by getting him into good regulation overlaps with the requirements for remission, so the thing to do is just keep doing what you're doing. You just never know, he may surprise you down the road, and in the meantime you are giving him a good, healthy life!
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That makes sense and it's what I figured. I'm ok as long as I can control it.

Thank you!
 
@Kris & Teasel

OK got him just now at PMPS and he's 330. Should I increase to 5.25 or wait? I ask about waiting only because I'm very close to getting him off the temptations completely (more on that in the post later)

I know he didn't eat 2.5 hours before his shot. I had to almost fist fight with him though.

Tomorrow is going to be rough for me too. I've got two home projects to do. my uncle is stopping by to help me run some wires in my attack. Wilbur hides when others come over. If the doorbell even rings he bolts.

Between him hiding and me being tied up the chances of getting anything even close to a +3 or +4 is rather slim. I will try to get him at +5 if we can get tied up by noon.

The next day will be much easier.

Follow up on Temptations. i've been withholding them much more lately. He got mad a couple times. I'm pretty sure within the next couple days he'll be off. It would be tomorrow but as i mentioned I'll be tied up.
 
I suggest you stay at this dose until your freer day. If you can’t monitor as much tomorrow it’s best not to increase right now. Congrats on getting a lot of hard work done on the Temptations rehab.
 
OK. thank you.

I feel bad I couldn't get him today. but my mother had a blood pressure of 200/100 and it scared me to death. So i took her to her doctor without an appointment and sat there for 6 hours until we could get in. blech
 
johnt said:
OK. thank you.

I feel bad I couldn't get him today. but my mother had a blood pressure of 200/100 and it scared me to death. So i took her to her doctor without an appointment and sat there for 6 hours until we could get in. blech
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Stressful!
 
Kris & Teasel said:
Stressful!
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I took two readings this morning 151 and 153. It's still 30 minutes early but there's no way he's going to come up that much in half an hour.

I'll have to keep checking him. but that will throw off my 12 hour schedule. do i dose him on ce it gets to 250?
 
johnt said:
I took two readings this morning 151 and 153. It's still 30 minutes early but there's no way he's going to come up that much in half an hour.

I'll have to keep checking him. but that will throw off my 12 hour schedule. do i dose him on ce it gets to 250?
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You're using a human meter so the no shot number when you don't have much/any data is 200. You have data but have a busy day ahead where extra testing isn't easy. I think the big reduction in Temptations is contributing to this. I suggest you give him a token dose of 1 u just so he has some insulin and if you can squeeze in one test around his usual nadir that would be useful.

Do your usual pre shot test in 30 minutes and post. My suggestion won't likely change much but we'll see what he wants to do. This is very exciting! :)

Another approach if you can wait an hour past the usual dose time without giving him any food is to retest then and if BG is closer to 200, give a reduced but larger dose than I suggested. Your call ...
 
How in the world do I fill out the chart now? 3 tests within 1 hour and no shot yet

Also, forgive me but I don't remember what 'nadir' is. isn't that the low? so with wilbur around +5?
 
johnt said:
he's at 170 now. you think 1u?
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Try 2 u. You can enter more than one BG in a cell. Input one number, hit enter, second number, enter, third number. It also works if you just keep typing in the cell - it'll expand. You'll have to go to the tool bar to the paint can icon to manually colour the cell with the appropriate colour.

Nadir is when BG is lowest - +4 to +6 for Wilbur.
 
Kris & Teasel said:
Try 2 u. You can enter more than one BG in a cell. Input one number, hit enter, second number, enter, third number. It also works if you just keep typing in the cell - it'll expand. You'll have to go to the tool bar to the paint can icon to manually colour the cell with the appropriate colour.

Nadir is when BG is lowest - +4 to +6 for Wilbur.
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just got him again, 160. but i gave him 1u before reading this. should I give him another?
 
Nan & Amber said:
how long are you gone for? He should be fine but you can leave him a little snack if you're worried.
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i just came down from the attic. I was running network cable through the house. it only took me a few hours and i got those tests from him. But right now i'm so tired everything looks white when i look outside. so i need a couple hours rest.

Kris & Teasel said:
Today's numbers are really nice considering the low dose this AM. He's probably close to his nadir time period so he should be OK.
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I'm shocked that he's doing this well after 1u. shockeD!
 
he got into the kibble today, I saw him do it. but his BG is still only 284 @ +8

I assume just stay the course, and if back up in the 300 or higher give him the regular 5?
 
johnt said:
he got into the kibble today, I saw him do it. but his BG is still only 284 @ +8

I assume just stay the course, and if back up in the 300 or higher give him the regular 5?
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No, you won't go right back to 5 u. The numbers today suggest that the 5 u dose finally got him responding well to the insulin, along with greatly reducing the kibble. Stay on top of the kibble thievery.

When they start responding well their good dose range can drop quite a bit. We can't be 100% sure that's what's going on but the next dose will depend on PMPS as well as the other data from today. It can get tricky when they begin to do well.
 
Kris & Teasel said:
No, you won't go right back to 5 u. The numbers today suggest that the 5 u dose finally got him responding well to the insulin, along with greatly reducing the kibble. Stay on top of the kibble thievery.

When they start responding well their good dose range can drop quite a bit. We can't be 100% sure that's what's going on but the next dose will depend on PMPS as well as the other data from today. It can get tricky when they begin to do well.
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OK. well he stole some of the other kitties kibble today. This is going to be the hard part to stop. They graze.

So i should get a PMPS and wait for instructions? to be honest, with a 284 +8 i'm expecting him to be really high tonight. even if that happens I shouldn't give him 5 right? just wait for a response? FYI that's in 2.5 hours

EDIT: i just got a 10.5 and he's onlly 253
 
johnt said:
OK. well he stole some of the other kitties kibble today. This is going to be the hard part to stop. They graze.

So i should get a PMPS and wait for instructions? to be honest, with a 284 +8 i'm expecting him to be really high tonight. even if that happens I shouldn't give him 5 right? just wait for a response? FYI that's in 2.5 hours

EDIT: i just got a 10.5 and he's onlly 253
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There'll be guesswork with tonight's dose because he's responding better today. Vetsulin is an in and out insulin so the numbers you're seeing today are from that 1 u dose only - no influence of the previous higher doses. So you look at today's data and use the numbers generated by 1 u to determine the next dose. Off the top of my head I'd say you could try 3 u if his PMPS is yellow and 2 u if it's mid blue to high blue. If it's low blue - 1 u (not a likely scenario). It's an experiment: you try something sensible and assess the result. If he's back up high tomorrow then you know that he should have been given 4 - 5 u. It's always safety first though.

I'll check in.
 
Kris & Teasel said:
There'll be guesswork with tonight's dose because he's responding better today. Vetsulin is an in and out insulin so the numbers you're seeing today are from that 1 u dose only - no influence of the previous higher doses. So you look at today's data and use the numbers generated by 1 u to determine the next dose. Off the top of my head I'd say you could try 3 u if his PMPS is yellow and 2 u if it's mid blue to high blue. If it's low blue - 1 u (not a likely scenario). It's an experiment: you try something sensible and assess the result. If he's back up high tomorrow then you know that he should have been given 4 - 5 u. It's always safety first though.

I'll check in.
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Sounds good. Keep in mind, he's already at 250+ so i anticipate him being a lot higher by PMPS.

If it's 300+ what should i dose?

This is very encouraging. and surprising that i was able to sneak away that many times to test :)
 
johnt said:
Sounds good. Keep in mind, he's already at 250+ so i anticipate him being a lot higher by PMPS.

If it's 300+ what should i dose?

This is very encouraging. and surprising that i was able to sneak away that many times to test :)
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I'd still drop it a bit to 4 u just in case he really is in a more sensitive phase. It can always go up tomorrow if necessary.

The whole testing routine seems to be a non issue for you now and that's great. Is he grudgingly accepting the new feeding regimen?
 
Kris & Teasel said:
I'd still drop it a bit to 4 u just in case he really is in a more sensitive phase. It can always go up tomorrow if necessary.

The whole testing routine seems to be a non issue for you now and that's great. Is he grudgingly accepting the new feeding regimen?
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he still comes and SCREAMS at his tempations bowl. But i've changed. now when he does that I get him a bit of tuna and that shuts him up. Then I put some ice water in his cup and he's happy again.

He only got temptations once today. I might try cutting him completley tomorrow.

as for testing, yes that's no problem now. one thing that helped was, when i was talking about not having enough strips I said heck with it, i went and got a OneTouch Verio Flex. The differences are huge. the tiny amount of blood I need means even for what would be a missed shot before, if I can see any red I probably have enough to get it.

He still doesn't like it but he's getting better. I can test him now whatever he's doing. just have to scratch his neck first

I will follow your directions. I'm hoping it goes down. it already did from my +8 to +10.5 he dropped 30 points. so maybe it's settling.

This is all very encouraging to me
 
johnt said:
his tempations bowl
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Were you feeding Temptations treats as though they're kibble? They're very high carb and if he was getting them as a dry food meal they would have a huge impact on his BG - and weight. When my cat dives into lime green I put 5 or 6 on top of a teaspoon or two of wet food to boost his BG. That's how powerful they are.

johnt said:
I might try cutting him completley tomorrow.
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Or no more than 6 all day until he's weaned to zero.
 
You can go manually colour those BGs on your SS that are still black and white by clicking on the paint can icon in the tool bar.
 
Kris & Teasel said:
Were you feeding Temptations treats as though they're kibble? They're very high carb and if he was getting them as a dry food meal they would have a huge impact on his BG - and weight. When my cat dives into lime green I put 5 or 6 on top of a teaspoon or two of wet food to boost his BG. That's how powerful they are.
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The other cats have the hills prescription diet. he doesn't like that anymore. BUt if i refuse him treats he will sometimes go eat that.

he only gets temptations when it's shot time. but now that I can test him I don't have that need. That will help us tremendously


Kris & Teasel said:
Or no more than 6 all day until he's weaned to zero.
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that's a good idea. I'm close. i'm going to guess he gets about 10 to 12 all day right now
 
Kris & Teasel said:
You can go manually colour those BGs on your SS that are still black and white by clicking on the paint can icon in the tool bar.
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Didn't notice the paint can earlier. OK with Excel, never used Google docs or Google sheets before. I used dropbox and shared excel sheets in the past.
 
Kris & Teasel said:
There'll be guesswork with tonight's dose because he's responding better today. Vetsulin is an in and out insulin so the numbers you're seeing today are from that 1 u dose only - no influence of the previous higher doses. So you look at today's data and use the numbers generated by 1 u to determine the next dose. Off the top of my head I'd say you could try 3 u if his PMPS is yellow and 2 u if it's mid blue to high blue. If it's low blue - 1 u (not a likely scenario). It's an experiment: you try something sensible and assess the result. If he's back up high tomorrow then you know that he should have been given 4 - 5 u. It's always safety first though.

I'll check in.
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281 which pleased me since he's only had 1u all day.

I administered 3u. I'll check in +2 or +3 before I unplug for the night
 
Whoopee for that overnight blue at +8.5! He's doing great and you've turned into a testing monster! ;) I'll be very interested to see his AMPS today.

Time to start a new thread because this one is very long. Generally once you get to about 100 posts it's best to start a new one so it's easier for us to find info.
 
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