? Help, please. Polyuria and Behavior

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Brittany-Tig

Brittany-Tig

Member Since 2018
Hi everyone. Tigger is a newly diagnosed sugar kitty who likes to pee outside of the pan. But he ALWAYS does his number 2’s in the pan. This is what alerted us to take him to the vet for the diagnosis in the first place. Again, he’s newly diagnosed, and I just started a spreadsheet so I’m unsure of any trends at this point, but he keeps urinating outside of the litter pan. He’s particularly fond of area rugs. When we first started treating him, the out of the pan urination almost ceased. But it’s starting to pick up again. We’ve tried picking up the rugs, but then he just relieves himself on the floor and it makes an even bigger mess. We’ve tried puppy pads, but he misses most times. Have any of you guys had this problem? What’s your experience? Do you have any advice on how to get him to use the pan again? I’m really hoping that when I can get his BG regulated he’ll do better.
 
Try dr elsey’s cat attract litter. My ckd cat liked to go on pee pads... we got large 23” ones. The number one thing though is to get his bg levels down.
 
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Tigger might have undiagnosed neuropathy. Better regulation and supplementation with a diabetic-friendly B12 methylcobalamin supplement can reverse neuropathy problems (e.g. Zobaline, available online).

Brittany-Tig said:
When we first started treating him, the out of the pan urination almost ceased. But it’s starting to pick up again.
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Did this happen after a Lantus dose increase by any chance?

Also, have you had the vet check for presence of any inflammation or infection as both of these can result in increased BG levels (UTIs and dental issues are common culprits). Also, UTIs can make cats reluctant to use the litter box to pee because they start to associate it with painful urination (usually behaviour issue resolves when UTI is treated).


Mogs
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Like Critter Mon said, UTI is a possibility. My vet said cats sometimes do that when they have a UTI. Otherwise it could be they are are just trying to tell you they don't feel quite right.
 
Critter Mom said:
Tigger might have undiagnosed neuropathy. Better regulation and supplementation with a diabetic-friendly B12 methylcobalamin supplement can reverse neuropathy problems (e.g. Zobaline, available online).


Did this happen after a Lantus dose increase by any chance?

Also, have you had the vet check for presence of any inflammation or infection as both of these can result in increased BG levels (UTIs and dental issues are common culprits). Also, UTIs can make cats reluctant to use the litter box to pee because they start to associate it with painful urination (usually behaviour issue resolves when UTI is treated).


Mogs
.
Click to expand...

Actually, yes. Saturday we increased his AM dose from 1.0U to 1.5U. And this evening we changed 1.0U to 1.5U. Do you think this could be the reason? What’s happening?

He has been checked for UTIs in the past because this wasn’t new behavior, unfortunately. It just got worse and then he was diagnosed with diabetes. He has not had dental problems before, but his breath does stink more lately. Does diabetes affect their teeth as well?
 
Critter Mom said:
Tigger might have undiagnosed neuropathy. Better regulation and supplementation with a diabetic-friendly B12 methylcobalamin supplement can reverse neuropathy problems (e.g. Zobaline, available online).


Mogs
.
Click to expand...

And I do believe he has a mild neuropathy problem. He walks a little funny, but it’s getting better. I thought if that were the case he wouldn’t use the on at all, and he still defecates in the pan, just no urine
 
Sean & Rufus said:
Like Critter Mon said, UTI is a possibility. My vet said cats sometimes do that when they have a UTI. Otherwise it could be they are are just trying to tell you they don't feel quite right.
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Yes, my first thought was that he was telling me he doesn’t feel well :(
 
Sean & Rufus said:
I was told by a dental specialist that diabetic cats teeth do need to be cleaned more often. My guy is 12 and unfortuneltly I think he has a dental issue, but they won't donanything until his numbers are better.
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Hmm okay. I already have a cat prone to dental problems so we have kitty toothpaste. I’ll call my vet Monday and if needed I can start brushing his teeth right away. Thank you for the insight. I had no clue
 
Brittany-Tig said:
And I do believe he has a mild neuropathy problem. He walks a little funny, but it’s getting better. I thought if that were the case he wouldn’t use the on at all, and he still defecates in the pan, just no urine
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It's easier to 'hold on' when what is about to be passed is solid, not liquid.

Brittany-Tig said:
He has not had dental problems before, but his breath does stink more lately. Does diabetes affect their teeth as well?
Click to expand...
Diabetics are more vulnerable to infections so they need to have more frequent check-ups. As mentioned above, dental and urinary tract issues are not at all uncommon in diabetics.

Brittany-Tig said:
Actually, yes. Saturday we increased his AM dose from 1.0U to 1.5U. And this evening we changed 1.0U to 1.5U. Do you think this could be the reason? What’s happening?
Click to expand...

Without any BG data to look at it's not possible to say whether or not the dose increase may be a factor in the worsening of Tigger's clinical signs but, that said, it's important to be aware that both too little and too much insulin can drive up numbers (plus there's an increased risk of out-of-the-blue hypos on too high a dose). If you noticed the worsening of PU/PD symptoms after a dose increase it's something you should let your vet know about as a safety precaution.


Mogs
.
 
Brittany-Tig said:
I have not. I’m hesitant trying too many new things right now since his BG is all over the place. Is it safe?
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Zobaline is very safe. It's a vitamin b 12 methylcobalamin supplement with folic acid. You don't need to worry that is too much b 12 because the urinate out the extra.
 
Brittany-Tig said:
I’m hesitant trying too many new things right now since his BG is all over the place. Is [Zobaline] safe?
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Generally speaking, yes, as it contains water-soluble B12 and B9 vitamins and any excess is excreted via the kidneys. However, one always needs to assess the 'whole cat' when considering adding new supplements to the diet in case there may be any underlying health issues where a supplement might be contraindicated. For example, in kitties with chronic renal disease and FD/neuropathy then the slightly higher level B12 doses recommended for neuropathy treatment may need to be reduced to prioritise the needs of the kidneys. As with everything, it is really important to discuss with the vet whether any particular supplement is suitable and safe to use for your cat before trialling anything new.


Mogs
.
 
From your thread on the Welcome board:

Brittany-Tig said:
I finally got him on a low carb wet food diet, and I hope it makes a difference.
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When did you complete the diet change relative to the Lantus dose increases?

Did PU/PD get better or worse after the diet change?


Mogs
.
 
Critter Mom said:
It's easier to 'hold on' when what is about to be passed is solid, not liquid.


Diabetics are more vulnerable to infections so they need to have more frequent check-ups. As mentioned above, dental and urinary tract issues are not at all uncommon in diabetics.



Without any BG data to look at it's not possible to say whether or not the dose increase may be a factor in the worsening of Tigger's clinical signs but, that said, it's important to be aware that both too little and too much insulin can drive up numbers (plus there's an increased risk of out-of-the-blue hypos on too high a dose). If you noticed the worsening of PU/PD symptoms after a dose increase it's something you should let your vet know about as a safety precaution.


Mogs
.
Click to expand...

Thank you. This is a lot to think about and I have a list of things I will be discussing with my vet when they open again on Monday. I did tell her today that his PU was up again and she wanted me to increase his evening dose from 1.0 to 1.5 as well. Tonight is the first night of that. Unfortunately, I don’t think my vets are the experts in treating feline diabetes, so I wasn’t encouraged to get a glucometer. But I got one on Wednesday and began keeping a SS today. I’m hoping soon the data will help catch any changes. I can link the SS if you think it would help, but it’s only been one day. I have a super basic one I kept for Wednesday through Friday until I found the SS layout here.
 
Critter Mom said:
From your thread on the Welcome board:



When did you complete the diet change relative to the Lantus dose increases?

Did PU/PD get better or worse after the diet change?


Mogs
.
Click to expand...

It got worse after the diet change, but it is fairly new. He was getting all wet food, but now low carb wet food since Friday

First dose increase was last Saturday. Diet change was yesterday (Friday). And my vets told me to change the dose again. So that started tonight.
 
Brittany-Tig said:
I can link the SS if you think it would help, but it’s only been one day.
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It would be great if you could add all the historical data you have into the spreadsheet and then link it into your signature. Members here need to see the data in order to better understand how Tigger's responding to his insulin and consequently be able to make better suggestions to help you. For this case in particular, the historical BG data and feeding info for the time when Tigger's clinical signs were better would be very valuable to see. (Use the Remarks column to add info about food.)

Re dose increases for Lantus, the usual recommendation is to increase/decrease as appropriate in 0.25IU increments in order to reduce the chances of skipping over a 'good', effective dose for a cat's current needs.


Mogs
.
 
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Critter Mom said:
It would be great if you could add all the historical data you have into the spreadsheet and then link it into your signature. Members here need to see the data in order to better understand how Tigger's responding to his insulin and consequently be able to make better suggestions to help you. For this case in particular, the historical BG data and feeding info for the time when Tigger's clinical signs were better would be very valuable to see. (Use the Remarks column to add info about food.)

Re dose increases for Lantus, the usual recommendation is to increase/decrease as appropriate in 0.25IU increments in order to reduce the chances of skipping over a 'good', effective dose for a cat's current needs.


Mogs
.
Click to expand...

Okay I’m compiling as much as I can. There is definitely more detail from today than previous days since I didn’t have the SS yet. As for dates I remember more specifically that the AM dose went from 1.0 to 1.5 on 1/20. He has been on wet food twice/day for about a month now. He has had some nights with low carb and some nights with higher carb. Switched to all low carb 1/26. Maybe an hour later he peed on the floor. So I don’t believe the food change had anything to do with that. I’m going to keep track of food habits as well as PU/PD habits in the SS. Once I get more data I’ll attach it to my signature. But right now there is literally only today on the SS.

As for increasing and decreasing doses, I was just following my vets instructions and I had no idea about the .25 guidance. I’m thinking since I already increased am/pm to 1.5, that if any changes are made again I will follow the .25 guidance. Or do you think I should just start over?
 
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