Giving my cat Trooper 2 units and not sure if I should skip his next shot
- Thread starter catdaddy1
- Start date
- Status
catdaddy1
Member
Sorry I didn't get back to you, had some drama, not cat related, last night. Anyway, I haven't gotten a test from him yet today, it's way more difficult in the morning hours for some reason. I will try to get some consecutive tests today to help see the curve better. I did give him 1 unit this morning, he seems fine, I just gave them a snack which I probably shouldn't have, how do I score that on the spread sheet? should I just start at +1,+2, etc....?
Kris & Teasel
Very Active Member
Just a point of information to you: the columns on the SS labelled AMPS and PMPS are where you would enter the BG test done before feeding an AM/PM meal and then injecting insulin. Right now you have time of dose in those boxes.
It's best to give insulin shots as close to 12 hours apart as you can manage. Your AM and PM shot times seem to vary a lot. If you can settle on an AM/PM schedule that accommodates your work schedule that's ideal.
This might be helpful if you haven't already read it:
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/understanding-the-spreadsheet-grid.156606/
You can make notes about snacks, etc. in the right hand section of your SS.
It's best to give insulin shots as close to 12 hours apart as you can manage. Your AM and PM shot times seem to vary a lot. If you can settle on an AM/PM schedule that accommodates your work schedule that's ideal.
This might be helpful if you haven't already read it:
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/understanding-the-spreadsheet-grid.156606/
You can make notes about snacks, etc. in the right hand section of your SS.
Last edited:
Djamila
Very Active Member
Kris has given a helpful link for understanding what information goes in which part of the spreadsheet, and you might also find it helpful to click on a few of our spreadsheets so you can see how we input the data.
It's fine to give snacks during a curve. You just feed like normal and test at whichever hours you are checking. As far as entering the data, you start counting hours from the time of the injection. So let's say for example (I'll just make up a time) you gave the shot at 8:30am. Then you do a test at 10:30am. That's two hours after the shot, so you enter the blood glucose (BG) number in the +2 column. Then you do another test at 12:30, so you enter that one in +4 column because it's 4 hours after the shot. And on and on.
I hope everything is okay and the drama is resolved!
catdaddy1
Member
Yes, the drama is over, no time for drama. So I just tested him and it had been about 7-7.5 hours since his shot and he is at 83. Does that mean that I should feed him some treats or something? Or is 83 good?
Kris & Teasel
Very Active Member
That 83 is a good number. On the face of it, it tells us that the 1 unit dose is good. However, it's possible he was lower at +5 or+6. By the way, your spreadsheet is showing 81, not 83.
catdaddy1
Member
Ok, it was 81, my brain and numbers don't go together very well but I double checked and it's 81 thank you. I just got a pre-shot test and it is 123 so would you suggest I skip the shot? Give him 1 unit? or give him 0.5 units?
catdaddy1
Member
Yes, it had been twelve hours.
I didn't skip it because I wasn't sure if it could screw him up to get and then not and then get it again and so on
catdaddy1
Member
do you think maybe I should just not give it to him for a day or two and see if he stays normal?
Djamila
Very Active Member
Unfortunately, you can screw him up more by giving insulin on a number that is too low. In fact, it can kill him. A healthy cat can handle an occasional low number (which I'm assuming Trooper hit last night if you gave him one unit on such a low pre-shot), but if it happens a few cycles in a row his body won't be able to recover, and he'll have a hypoglycemic episode. We really really don't want to see that happen.
A couple of things going forward:
1. If you post asking a question, please stick around and keep checking for a response. Last night you asked what you should do. I responded within ten minutes that you should not give the dose. Shooting on that number last night could have been dangerous for Trooper. We can't always respond that quickly, but when you don't know what you should do, guessing can be dangerous. Safety is our first priority when treating diabetes.
2. If no one responds on this forum within 30 minutes, you can always post in the Main Health forum and ask your question. There is often more traffic out there and sometimes you can get a response quickly. The folk out there may not know the details of dosing for Prozinc, but they know the general guidelines of not dosing when the number is too low and they could have helped. http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/feline-health-the-main-forum.28/
3. The "rules" of when to shoot and how much do change as your cat progresses, but for right now, please do NOT give any insulin if the pre-shot number is below 150. You don't have enough mid-cycle numbers yet to know if it's safe, and keeping the cats here safe is our first priority.
I think you should continue to give him insulin if his numbers are high enough to be safe. I think you should skip the insulin if his numbers are too low. And keep working on getting those tests in: one before the shot, and whenever possible, one during the cycle sometime between +4 and +7. That data will help to know when the dose needs to go down, and when he is ready to go off of the insulin.
Hopefully this helps clarify a little bit. It's a big learning curve at the beginning, and a lot of "rules" to remember. We are here to help.
catdaddy1
Member
Unfortunately, you can screw him up more by giving insulin on a number that is too low. In fact, it can kill him. A healthy cat can handle an occasional low number (which I'm assuming Trooper hit last night if you gave him one unit on such a low pre-shot), but if it happens a few cycles in a row his body won't be able to recover, and he'll have a hypoglycemic episode. We really really don't want to see that happen.
A couple of things going forward:
1. If you post asking a question, please stick around and keep checking for a response. Last night you asked what you should do. I responded within ten minutes that you should not give the dose. Shooting on that number last night could have been dangerous for Trooper. We can't always respond that quickly, but when you don't know what you should do, guessing can be dangerous. Safety is our first priority when treating diabetes.
2. If no one responds on this forum within 30 minutes, you can always post in the Main Health forum and ask your question. There is often more traffic out there and sometimes you can get a response quickly. The folk out there may not know the details of dosing for Prozinc, but they know the general guidelines of not dosing when the number is too low and they could have helped. http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/feline-health-the-main-forum.28/
3. The "rules" of when to shoot and how much do change as your cat progresses, but for right now, please do NOT give any insulin if the pre-shot number is below 150. You don't have enough mid-cycle numbers yet to know if it's safe, and keeping the cats here safe is our first priority.
I think you should continue to give him insulin if his numbers are high enough to be safe. I think you should skip the insulin if his numbers are too low. And keep working on getting those tests in: one before the shot, and whenever possible, one during the cycle sometime between +4 and +7. That data will help to know when the dose needs to go down, and when he is ready to go off of the insulin.
Hopefully this helps clarify a little bit. It's a big learning curve at the beginning, and a lot of "rules" to remember. We are here to help.
Ok, I apologize for that and that is all good to know information to know, thank you. I get anxiety attacks over all this so by the time 10 minutes had gone by, it felt like an hour to me but I'm trying to have more patience. I'm a gulf war vet so i have some issues but I have people to help with those too. Also, more background than you asked for, but my mom, who is 89, fractured her femur early last year and I spent the better part of that year nursing her back to health only to have my brother move her out to Tennessee but the point is that I"ve never had anxiety like I get it now just from having to get up anytime during the day or night and rush to be wherever she needed me to be. Anyway, Trooper did ok last night and fortunately he still keeps his same routine of jumping into bed with me, I had to build him stairs a few months ago because I could tell he was getting to heavy when he decided it was time for me to lift him up into bed which was an arm breaker. I think I will weigh him today and see how much he's lost being on this Fancy Feast diet. I skipped his shot this morning by the way because I couldn't get a BG test, I'm going to have to wake up before he does tomorrow and be ready for him when it's time. He's only a few minutes late on it now but I don't know if testing him right after he eats would give useful information about whether to give a shot or not, I'm guessing it's safer to not. Also I will try to get more of the +4 - +7 numbers today because it would be nice to know whether I should or shouldn't be giving him the shot and taking him to the vet is kind of out of the question because after the first trip, the vet money is gone. I spend three times as much money on everything cat now because of the problems with Trooper and the fact that I inherited mom's elderly, mostly deaf, mostly blind cat. So we will try harder to get this all right and thank you again.
Kris & Teasel
Very Active Member
You have a lot going on right now and we understand how hard it is to get a grip on everything you need to learn to treat Trooper. We want to help you avoid vet visits as much as possible - at least the diabetes related ones. It'll require some patience, a bit of organization and learning more about the insulin.
I suggest you find a little breathing space today if possible, read over the yellow info stickies about ProZinc and put together as long a list of questions/concerns as you need. We can address each of them. Printing out those yellow stickies is also a good idea so you don't have to search for them every time you need to check something.
We're here to help.
Djamila
Very Active Member
Please don't feel badly about it! Like I said, there is a lot to learn at first, and it's hard to keep it all straight. We all needed help and reminders when we were first getting started.
Yes, vets and all of the diabetes supplies do get expensive. I've been putting off a vet visit for my kitty too since he's already been so expensive the past few months. I wish pets were tax deductible the way that kids are!
When a cat stays in the 50-120 range with most of the numbers under 100, throughout the cycle all on their own, that's when they are ready to go off of insulin. And they have to do that for two weeks before we really declare them done with the insulin and in remission. Sometimes a kitty will have a couple of good days and then start to creep back up which is why remission is based on maintaining the good numbers for two weeks. It will be great to see where he is today without the insulin.
When you start to feel anxious about all of this, know that you have lots of folks out here who understand. It is really stressful, especially in the beginning, but it gets better with time and practice.
Yes, vets and all of the diabetes supplies do get expensive. I've been putting off a vet visit for my kitty too since he's already been so expensive the past few months. I wish pets were tax deductible the way that kids are!
When a cat stays in the 50-120 range with most of the numbers under 100, throughout the cycle all on their own, that's when they are ready to go off of insulin. And they have to do that for two weeks before we really declare them done with the insulin and in remission. Sometimes a kitty will have a couple of good days and then start to creep back up which is why remission is based on maintaining the good numbers for two weeks. It will be great to see where he is today without the insulin.
When you start to feel anxious about all of this, know that you have lots of folks out here who understand. It is really stressful, especially in the beginning, but it gets better with time and practice.
catdaddy1
Member
Right now he's at 89 and I listed it as a pre-shot since he hasn't had one since last night. Do you think I should hold back on giving him a shot tonight? I will try to get another test before it's time for him to eat dinner.
Kris & Teasel
Very Active Member
I'm not sure I understand. I take it you didn't give him insulin this AM, correct? If you had given him a dose this morning at your usual time, how many hours is this 89 BG after what would have been the AM dose time? Enter the 89 in the appropriate box on the spreadsheet - eg. +7 or whatever. Leave the AMPS BG test box blank for this AM if you didn't get a test done. The only time you type something into the AMPS or PMPS box is if you do a test right before the AM or PM meal/injection.
What time zone are you in? How many hours from now would his normal PM meal time be? The only way we can understand what's happening is to know BG reading at a certain number of hours after a shot. Because we live all over the world we need those +2, +3. +4 etc. time labels on the spreadsheet.
Try to get a BG test right before it's time for his PM meal. If it's under 150 DON'T give insulin. Post here for help.
Is there anything else about the spreadsheet you need help with?
Djamila
Very Active Member
Let's see...I think you've been giving the injection around 6am/6pm in my time zone, so that would mean the 89 is most likely around +5, does that sound right? If so, that's a great number!
Test him at or a little before your usual shot time (like 15-20 minutes before) and post here. Depending on how high he gets, I might suggest a very small dose, but I'm pretty happy to see that 89 with no insulin today. Fingers crossed he stays low like that!
Test him at or a little before your usual shot time (like 15-20 minutes before) and post here. Depending on how high he gets, I might suggest a very small dose, but I'm pretty happy to see that 89 with no insulin today. Fingers crossed he stays low like that!
catdaddy1
Member
Let's see...I think you've been giving the injection around 6am/6pm in my time zone, so that would mean the 89 is most likely around +5, does that sound right? If so, that's a great number!
Test him at or a little before your usual shot time (like 15-20 minutes before) and post here. Depending on how high he gets, I might suggest a very small dose, but I'm pretty happy to see that 89 with no insulin today. Fingers crossed he stays low like that!
I think I was going to put it in +6 before I decided to put it as a pre-shot. I'm going to test him right now, I'm in the same time zone as you I guess, I try to give him the shot at around 5:45am and pm. I will post what I get in a few minutes depending on how this goes....
catdaddy1
Member
Let's see...I think you've been giving the injection around 6am/6pm in my time zone, so that would mean the 89 is most likely around +5, does that sound right? If so, that's a great number!
Test him at or a little before your usual shot time (like 15-20 minutes before) and post here. Depending on how high he gets, I might suggest a very small dose, but I'm pretty happy to see that 89 with no insulin today. Fingers crossed he stays low like that!
He tested at 97 just now, it's 5:30pm
catdaddy1
Member
I think I've got the spreadsheet figured out for the most part and since he just tested at 97 before dinner I won't give him the shot which means he hasn't needed one all day. Cool beans, I hope I can keep him at lower levels without the insulin
Kris & Teasel
Very Active Member
That's a definite no shot number. If I understand it correctly, he hasn't had insulin since last night, right? He's doing great and it could be because of the low carb wet food.
catdaddy1
Member
That's a definite no shot number. If I understand it correctly, he hasn't had insulin since last night, right? He's doing great and it could be because of the low carb wet food.
Yes correct, no insulin since last night. I will try to test him again before bed and again in the morning if he will let me, he hates more every time when I use the lancet on him. He likes the treats but not the sticks. Anyway thank you, I needed that advice and will keep posting hoping he stays low but not to low
Djamila
Very Active Member
I'm so glad Kris was here to help! My parents have been sick and I got caught up at their house helping with some things for a few hours. That's so great that he was at 97 tonight! Are you using the lancet free hand, or using the clicker thingy? I'm wondering if the click is scaring him? Or if he just doesn't like the sticks?
It's great that he's doing so well on the low carb food. Fingers crossed he keeps at it with these nice healthy numbers!
It's great that he's doing so well on the low carb food. Fingers crossed he keeps at it with these nice healthy numbers!
catdaddy1
Member
I hope your parents are ok. Yes I'm doing the freehand, the clicker thingy I couldn't stand and it's kind of intimidating to him to have me poking around his ear with it. No his problem is he had ear mites and still has fleas no matter what I do. They now have something called Revolution which repels both fleas and ear mites so I'm going to get some of that in the next couple of day for both cats. He just scratches at his ears so much that the last thing he wants is for me to be poking him in the ear but he does start crying about it before I even poke him. I hope I don't have to do it very often if he does go into remission, neither one of us likes it.
Djamila
Very Active Member
Oh that's right - I forgot about the ear mites. Hopefully the Revolution will give him some relief! If he goes into remission you only need to test about once/week for a month or so, and then once every two weeks after that. Cats do sometimes come out of remission (mine did) so you need tests every couple of weeks for life so that you can catch it as soon as possible if he starts to rise.
But one step at a time -- we have to get him into remission first! Yesterday looked pretty good. Let's hope he keeps that trend going!
Oh, and yes, my parents are okay - they caught the flu and being older it hit them hard. They are doing well now, but don't have their energy back so I've been taking care of the cooking/cleaning/chores around the house for them. Thanks for asking!
But one step at a time -- we have to get him into remission first! Yesterday looked pretty good. Let's hope he keeps that trend going!
Oh, and yes, my parents are okay - they caught the flu and being older it hit them hard. They are doing well now, but don't have their energy back so I've been taking care of the cooking/cleaning/chores around the house for them. Thanks for asking!
catdaddy1
Member
Hi, well to be honest Trooper seems to be fine, I couldn't get an early BG from him this morning and was busy all day so couldn't get one. I just did get a BG from him before he has dinner and it is a 106 and this is still with no insulin, so that's good right? Oh and I'm glad to hear your parents are ok, I know how it is when they need help.
Kris & Teasel
Very Active Member
Yes, that's a good BG. Is he eating only low carb wet food now?
catdaddy1
Member
wwwwwwwwwwwwww
Yes, it's been all FF classic since I found out but I do give him a couple of soft treats after taking blood. What I didn't realize is that I was giving him all seafood FF for the last month because my brother ordered it from Tennessee and I'm in California so I never told him to switch it up an put some poultry in there too. I read somewhere that you shouldn't give them to much seafood but I can't help but wonder if maybe that helps somehow. Anyway, so far so good, I will keep updating because I know things aren't always as they seem and anything could happen.
Yes I will keep updating, I can't help but feel like that all happened way to fast for it to go into remission that quick but if it has I am not complaining
Yes, it's been all FF classic since I found out but I do give him a couple of soft treats after taking blood. What I didn't realize is that I was giving him all seafood FF for the last month because my brother ordered it from Tennessee and I'm in California so I never told him to switch it up an put some poultry in there too. I read somewhere that you shouldn't give them to much seafood but I can't help but wonder if maybe that helps somehow. Anyway, so far so good, I will keep updating because I know things aren't always as they seem and anything could happen.
Yes I will keep updating, I can't help but feel like that all happened way to fast for it to go into remission that quick but if it has I am not complaining
Djamila
Very Active Member
Frequent seafood isn't great, but you're right - it does tend to be the lowest carb foods. When you can, try to mix in some days with turkey, chicken, etc., to spread out how often he gets the fishy foods. As for treats, do you have a pet store near you? treats that are freeze-dried meat are best (one ingredient only), but they aren't usually sold at the grocery stores. Getting off of the high carb treats might seal the deal on keeping him off of insulin.
Here are a few you could try:
https://www.chewy.com/wellness-core-grain-free-100-salmon/dp/141799
https://www.chewy.com/cat-man-doo-life-essentials-chicken/dp/45664
https://www.chewy.com/vital-essentials-rabbit-bites-freeze/dp/121706
https://www.amazon.com/Kaneso-Tokuy...&qid=1515376916&sr=8-2&keywords=bonita+flakes
Another option is buying one of the freeze dried raw foods (like Primal), and breaking the chunks into little bite sized pieces and using them as treats. They are really really dry, so you don't want to feed them that way for a whole meal (dehydration is always an issue for cats and their kidneys are a bit fragile), but just feeding a couple little pieces for treats isn't too bad.
Here are a few you could try:
https://www.chewy.com/wellness-core-grain-free-100-salmon/dp/141799
https://www.chewy.com/cat-man-doo-life-essentials-chicken/dp/45664
https://www.chewy.com/vital-essentials-rabbit-bites-freeze/dp/121706
https://www.amazon.com/Kaneso-Tokuy...&qid=1515376916&sr=8-2&keywords=bonita+flakes
Another option is buying one of the freeze dried raw foods (like Primal), and breaking the chunks into little bite sized pieces and using them as treats. They are really really dry, so you don't want to feed them that way for a whole meal (dehydration is always an issue for cats and their kidneys are a bit fragile), but just feeding a couple little pieces for treats isn't too bad.
catdaddy1
Member
catdaddy1
Member
This morning he tested 83 at the +7 mark with NS and tonight I tried to get him to eat his flea medication, comfortis which is the only thing I've ever used that works on him, and he didn't like the new flavor FF I bought. I thought he would like a switch from the seafood. So that is one $18 meal he's snuffing his nose at no matter how many times I tell him he will stop jumping around like a jumping bean if he eats it. I just mixed seafood in with it and I'm sure he will get hungry enough to eat it tonight sometime.
- Status