12/22 Asia +10.5 82, PMPS 104 bupe, pbinder, subq fluids questions

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Looks like Asia is trying to come back down. I would give this dose a chance through tomorrow and then increase after that if you don't see any green.
 
Increase/failed reduction this pm if it continues?
With a 52 just a few cycles ago it's way to early to consider an increase/ failed reduction. With the +1 this morning hopefully you'll see some more greens today.

I read yesterdays condo and so sorry for the not so great BW report :( It's very difficult to see our babies health decline and feel like your hands are tied. Hopefully the pain meds, binder, fluids and a lower P food will help. Give Miss Asia lots of extra scritches for me.
 
Joining in the crowd giving these...:bighug::bighug::bighug:.

I have a CKD civvie and each BW/UA is like pin & needles affair waiting for the results. Biggest thing is how she feels, I let my civvie guide me on if she needs other help outside of water in her food and watching her potassium intact (if she is willing to eat the lower P diets). I could let you an absolute crazy story about trying to give her subq...figured if she had that much fight in her then she was too healthy for subq at the moment.
 
Just got back from the vet. He's having her take 1/3 tsp daily of the aluminum hydroxide powder. Anyone have experience if their cats noticed the taste? I can maybe put a tiny amount into each food portion and hopefully she doesn't notice, but they recommended giving it to her when she is really hungry. If I put it in her AMPS or PMPS food and she suspects anything is off, she just won't eat.

They also gave Buperenex extended 0.1 ml twice a day. Does that sound like a therapeutic and non loopy making amount? She's not quite 10 pounds. Does anyone have experience if it makes them more sleepy? I hope not.

Not looking forward to subq fluids, I didn't like doing it last go around. Does the extra fluid mess with diabetes in any way? Numbers up or down? Just want to be on the lookout for that.
 
I don't have experience with binders and don't have a lot of experience with bupe or fluids. When I gave bupe, I would often find that the dose prescribed by the vet was a little too much and make my kitty spacey and sometimes he would pace, so most of the time I ended up giving my cat less than prescribed to give him just enough to take the pain away but not make him loopy. I have heard of fluids making a cat's BGs go down, but I don't know if it was because they were given right around PS time or soon after when they would naturally be going down anyway or not. I have also heard that you don't want to give the fluids in the same spot as you give the insulin. I did give fluids some, but am not be far an expert. I know that isn't much help.
Wishing The Best for Asia. :bighug:
 
Gabby was a very food motivated kitty. She did not notice the addition of a phos binder to her food.

Sometimes, fluids can cause numbers to drop. Essentially, you're diluting the blood and since there's glucose floating around in the blood, you're diluting that, too. The biggest thing to be attentive to is to not give fluids (aka "squids" -- sub-q fluids) in the same spot that you give insulin.
 
I don't have experience with binders and don't have a lot of experience with bupe or fluids. When I gave bupe, I would often find that the dose prescribed by the vet was a little too much and make my kitty spacey and sometimes he would pace, so most of the time I ended up giving my cat less than prescribed to give him just enough to take the pain away but not make him loopy. I have heard of fluids making a cat's BGs go down, but I don't know if it was because they were given right around PS time or soon after when they would naturally be going down anyway or not. I have also heard that you don't want to give the fluids in the same spot as you give the insulin. I did give fluids some, but am not be far an expert. I know that isn't much help.
Wishing The Best for Asia. :bighug:
She's had bupe before and it was a larger dose than this, it totally made her saucer eyed and spacy. It was very cute, for like 3 days, but I wouldn't want it to be her regular state. Thank you! :)
 
Gabby was a very food motivated kitty. She did not notice the addition of a phos binder to her food.

Sometimes, fluids can cause numbers to drop. Essentially, you're diluting the blood and since there's glucose floating around in the blood, you're diluting that, too. The biggest thing to be attentive to is to not give fluids (aka "squids" -- sub-q fluids) in the same spot that you give insulin.
Thanks, Sienne. :) Asia is not food motivated and never has been, but she's an expert "you've tainted my food" detector, and she will starve rather than eat something she doesn't approve of. Recently, she's decided she now likes her food cold and if it's not cold enough, I have to dump it out and start over. :rolleyes: Paws crossed this has no taste to her.

They told me to do fluids in her scruff and I've never shoot her insulin in her scruff, hopefully it's all good that way. She has about a 1 inch by 1 inch patch in her scruff where no fur grows, I assume scar tissue from last time we did this 8 years ago, they told me it was okay to do fluids there?! o_O So I should be cautious with increases until I know how she reacts with fluids on board? They said to do this 2-3 times a week, I hope it doesn't mean lower numbers on just those days and higher the rest of the time!
 
Just got back from the vet. He's having her take 1/3 tsp daily of the aluminum hydroxide powder. Anyone have experience if their cats noticed the taste? I can maybe put a tiny amount into each food portion and hopefully she doesn't notice, but they recommended giving it to her when she is really hungry. If I put it in her AMPS or PMPS food and she suspects anything is off, she just won't eat.

They also gave Buperenex extended 0.1 ml twice a day. Does that sound like a therapeutic and non loopy making amount? She's not quite 10 pounds. Does anyone have experience if it makes them more sleepy? I hope not.

Not looking forward to subq fluids, I didn't like doing it last go around. Does the extra fluid mess with diabetes in any way? Numbers up or down? Just want to be on the lookout for that.
My cats never seemed to taste the powder but the 1/3 tsp is daily and the goal is to get a little bit in every helping that you can. It will likely seem to disappear faster than you think. I would try to put it in food, first, that is not associated with her PSs and if she eats it fine, then hopefully she will also eat her PS foods fine.

That is a relatively minor bupe dose. My Gus kitty was on that dose for a very long time (and he was a larger cat to start with) and did well with it as maintenance; it did not make him loopy. He was quite active. It just nipped the pain.

ECID but subqs can sometimes affect the BG. It did not happen in Gracie but I’ve seen it drop the BG in other cats the cycle it was given. You’ll have to experiment with it. If you’ve not ever seen our video on How To Give Subq Fluids at Home, it might help. We made it for FDMB members but also publicly posted it on YouTube and it’s had thousands of hits and I get so many comments and thanks.

Longevity with CKD is dependent on several things but the most critical (I believe based on my experience with it and research that has been published by vets) is (1) Phosphorus control (2) control of anemia (3) control of any proteinuria. I’m not saying there aren’t other important things to address; there really are but those are a really important starting point. If those aren’t addressed, the rest doesn’t matter.

You’ve already started on the P control. Great job!

On anemia, I don’t see it in your signature so please forgive if you are already doing this, but she would absolutely benefit from getting oral methylB12 and a multi B vitamin. When CKD cats get below 30% on their hematocrit, they are anemic. However, it is not critical, requiring erythropoietin stimulating agents or transfusions, until it gets below 20%. By giving the B vitamins, you can hold them steady. Gus, in four years of CKD where his creat was stable at about 3.5, his HCT never dropped below 28%. That’s your goal.....to hold it at least steady. I’m sure you’ve seen Tanya’s Comprehensive Guide to Feline CKD but it’s a lot to wade through so I’ll give you some links to get you right to the correct spot. First, here’s info on anemia. And here is the info on Vitamin B. It’s important to understand that a CKD cat needs a higher level of methylB12 plus a multi B. I always used Jarrows BRight for my multi but now they’ve added P and Asia doesn’t need more P. You can look at the other available multi Bs that Helen references on the site or you can see if you can find the Jarrows formulation before they changed it.

Currently, she has no protein in her urine which is excellent!! I wish they had tested MA (Microalbuminaria) but they didn’t. If we see an elevated MA, it can be a precursor to proteinuria even before we see much protein in the urine.

On the ultrasound, I see no reason to do it for the pancreas at this time if she is asymptomatic. Gracie’s specfPL was always elevated but she never once had pancreatitis or even the symptoms of it. She had several u/s and they were all normal regarding her pancreas. It was the issues with her liver and intestines that caused the elevation of her specfPL. The only advantage I see to doing one now is to potentially look at her kidneys. When I see the creatinine pop up that fast, I wonder if it is just age, other factors, or if it can be pyelonephritis or kidney infection. My Gus had two kidney infections over the four years. While we think we’d see some symptoms or bacteria in the urine, we did not with him. In fact, it’s not that common to not see bacteria even in a C&S with a kidney infection because it’s much higher up in the kidneys. Gus did have some WBCs in his urine on a routine check which is what led us to do the u/s both times and, both times, he had a kidney infection. Asia’s WBCs aren’t outside the norm so there’s nothing that makes me suspect it in her urine. You might want to talk to your vet about the u/s from that standpoint. Again, I am not indicating that anything points to her having a kidney infection but it “can” be a reason why the creatinine pops up.

I, personally, don’t see such a huge difference in tests between labs so I do believe you can give them some comparison. Her creatinine, if run at IDEXX, last time might have been a bit higher but I definitely think you can see and assume an upward trend here.

There will be more CKD info I can give you as we go but I don’t want overwhelm you. Ask for specific info you’d like to have. I know Tanya’s like the back of my hand and I can probably find stuff for you much faster especially as you have your hands full. :bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug:
 
I too read yesterday's news on Asia. :bighug::bighug: Neko was CKD for a couple of years, proteinuria being the first sign. Acromegaly is hard on kidneys. Neko never noticed the ALOH powder in her food. At that point she was less food motivated but it didn't seem to turn her off.

I also gave bupe, but for Neko's arthritis and acromegaly - she had arthritis bad. She weighed 13-14.9 lbs (not allowed to go 15!) and her dose was 0.22 ml. It didn't make her spacey. Civie was around the same weight, and that much would space him out. ECID. Bupe is dosed on a range based on weight, so you may have to experiment a bit. Which is why I liked getting it in a vial. Besides which, it was cheaper and chicken flavoured.

It's again ECID on whether fluids will impact the BG. I usually tried to give fluids a couple hours before the shot time, so it didn't impact numbers much. And if it did, the insulin was wearing off at that time anyway. The one time she got fluids at the vet after her shot but before onset, and in the same location (I alternated sides at home), I saw her numbers go down. Was it because it made her feel better too? Dunno. Some people don't notice a difference in BG when giving fluids, some do. Marje's video with Gus is great, I watched it multiple times. We stopped and started fluids a couple times with Neko, but didn't stick with it long, cause her heart couldn't handle it. :(
 
Thanks, @Marje and Gracie lots to unpack here. Regarding the B12, I've given her shots of it before and it gave her quite a boost, I inquired about it last night to the vet and he doesn't have the methyl type as an injectable and said I'd have to find that on my own. Is the other kind okay? I know the methyl one is more bioavailable, but if the methyl one has to go in her mouth, we will likely be at a stalemate there. If you had a choice of the injectable or nothing, is it worth it? It's going to be terrible enough to give her this bupe, but I know it will take the pain level down, so she just might start making that association (I sure hope so anyway).

Her 3 labs prior to diabetes, she had protein in her urine and I never knew what that meant. Given her history of UTI, a kidney infection doesn't seem out of the question. I brought her in for a suspected UTI in September (when she didn't turn up having one, but had diabetes instead), is it possible the infection was in her kidneys instead or urinary tract? Is that something they could miss or the labs don't point to definitively? If the number skyrocketed due to something acute like kidney infection, does that mean it could come back down again too?
 
Just sending you hugs of support, Stacy... :bighug::bighug::bighug:

I love Marje's SubQ video: worth a watch.

I don't know what Marje would think about this video, but I found it interesting how her three cats responded so differently to getting the SubQ fluids...cat #3 at 4 minutes in was the "challenging" cat...

I remember Wendy mentioning the Ezi strap in another post a while ago...

And more hugs for you!!! :bighug::bighug::bighug:
 
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Is your bupe an oral med or a transdermal? Maggie's is transdermal, .1 ml twice daily. She weighs 6.5 pounds.

Is the P in this case phosphorous or potassium? I ask because I use Jarrows BRight...
It's oral, he said he researched the transdermal and it's an option for me, but he said it's not as effective but perhaps better than nothing. So I might switch to that depending on how it goes with the oral one. The last time I had to give her bupe, I just shot it in there and she drooled and spit it out, but they say that's okay for this one because it rapidly absorbs in the mucosa.
 
Joining in the crowd giving these...:bighug::bighug::bighug:.

I have a CKD civvie and each BW/UA is like pin & needles affair waiting for the results. Biggest thing is how she feels, I let my civvie guide me on if she needs other help outside of water in her food and watching her potassium intact (if she is willing to eat the lower P diets). I could let you an absolute crazy story about trying to give her subq...figured if she had that much fight in her then she was too healthy for subq at the moment.
Dr made it sound like there is no amount of water I could add to her food that could equal the subq fluids at this point. I remember my old vet saying that is something you do in end stage CRF, she hasn't been classified into a stage, I don't know how it's determined, but that sits in the back of my mind as not being good. :( She will tolerate it, I just know it's uncomfortable for her as I've had to do it before. She has never been so sick that she will not fight if you try to go in her mouth, however, and she's been pretty sick before.
 
she hasn't been classified into a stage
Have you checked out Tanya's site? It has the way to classify stages. What do with the various things that pop up...subq, phosphate binders, anemia etc. There is a lot of information on there! felinecrf.org

I go on there every once in a while to to verify and check things out. Rain was diagnosed stage 1 at age 6. She was moved to early stage 2 last year at age 12.5. This year she has moved a little further along the scale to stage 2.5 on her fall check - 13 yrs & 9 months old.

I am pretty sure I will need to do the subq pretty soon. I actually purchased the EZ IV harness...was going to try that during the holiday break. The vet wanted her to get 200 ml throughout the week. So I was hoping to do like 60ml 3 times a week....like FD it isn't exact science it seems on how much is enough and how much is too much and and what stage....I know I need to figure it out soon.
 
I too read yesterday's news on Asia. :bighug::bighug: Neko was CKD for a couple of years, proteinuria being the first sign. Acromegaly is hard on kidneys. Neko never noticed the ALOH powder in her food. At that point she was less food motivated but it didn't seem to turn her off.

I also gave bupe, but for Neko's arthritis and acromegaly - she had arthritis bad. She weighed 13-14.9 lbs (not allowed to go 15!) and her dose was 0.22 ml. It didn't make her spacey. Civie was around the same weight, and that much would space him out. ECID. Bupe is dosed on a range based on weight, so you may have to experiment a bit. Which is why I liked getting it in a vial. Besides which, it was cheaper and chicken flavoured.

It's again ECID on whether fluids will impact the BG. I usually tried to give fluids a couple hours before the shot time, so it didn't impact numbers much. And if it did, the insulin was wearing off at that time anyway. The one time she got fluids at the vet after her shot but before onset, and in the same location (I alternated sides at home), I saw her numbers go down. Was it because it made her feel better too? Dunno. Some people don't notice a difference in BG when giving fluids, some do. Marje's video with Gus is great, I watched it multiple times. We stopped and started fluids a couple times with Neko, but didn't stick with it long, cause her heart couldn't handle it. :(

It still haunts me that you felt alone with Neko and her acro (I have to add the levity that autocorrect tried to make that 'afro'). :( It must have been all the more overwhelming. I'm so thankful to have you and so many others who have been in my shoes before me, I can't even imagine what it would feel like if I didn't have that support and it's so noble of you to turn that pain into something useful for others to save them the same feelings. :bighug:

Good news, I have already added p binder to 3 mini meals and she ate them up without notice! Score! :woot: I also just gave her the bupe after her shot and while she was pouty with me about it, it was quick and no spitting and drooling, this time! Another score! :woot: He didn't give a vial, it's pre dosed syringes. I know vets are all weird about narcotics because of the potential for human abuse, which is unfortunate for those of us that just want to do right by our cats. We will see how she does with it, if the dose is wrong I will have to figure out what to do next.

I haven't started the fluids yet, I have to find a time when I know I'll be around to make sure all goes well, this week has been very busy with holiday stuff. A couple hours before shot times won't work well for me schedule wise, AMPS & PMPS would, but with her double dip and early onset tendencies, that's probably the worst time to do it. Sigh. Will have to ponder this one. Going to watch Marje's video just to see the wizard in action, but I don't think I'll have any issues with it, done it before and I have a very patient patient. ;) Thanks for your thoughts, as always, Wendy! :bighug:
 
Have you checked out Tanya's site? It has the way to classify stages. What do with the various things that pop up...subq, phosphate binders, anemia etc. There is a lot of information on there! felinecrf.org

I go on there every once in a while to to verify and check things out. Rain was diagnosed stage 1 at age 6. She was moved to early stage 2 last year at age 12.5. This year she has moved a little further along the scale to stage 2.5 on her fall check - 13 yrs & 9 months old.

I am pretty sure I will need to do the subq pretty soon. I actually purchased the EZ IV harness...was going to try that during the holiday break. The vet wanted her to get 200 ml throughout the week. So I was hoping to do like 60ml 3 times a week....like FD it isn't exact science it seems on how much is enough and how much is too much and and what stage....I know I need to figure it out soon.
I will check it out again, I did a couple years ago, been in a bit of denial, I suppose. They told me to do 100ml 2-3 times a week.
 
I had Julie for the first part of my acro journey, and several lovely supportive members helping me on the basic FD part. It didn't take much for me to know more than my vet on acromegaly. That's still so common.

Bupe is a controlled substance here too. My vet had to use a special prescription pad for it and I had to get a new prescription for each renewal. But it was waaaaaaay cheaper.

Great news on the binder. :woot:
 
Dr made it sound like there is no amount of water I could add to her food that could equal the subq fluids at this point. I remember my old vet saying that is something you do in end stage CRF, she hasn't been classified into a stage, I don't know how it's determined, but that sits in the back of my mind as not being good. :( She will tolerate it, I just know it's uncomfortable for her as I've had to do it before. She has never been so sick that she will not fight if you try to go in her mouth, however, and she's been pretty sick before.
Here’s the info on Staging so she’s in Stage 3.

Many vets don’t recommend you start subqs until the creatinine is above 3.5. Typically, it’s better for them to get “some” fluids every day as opposed to more just a few days a week. However, since she hasn’t hit 3.5 on the creatinine yet, his approach is fine. I would suggest when she gets to 3.5, you discuss starting daily fluids.

100 mls of fluids = 20 tsps. So that’s how much extra you’d have to get in her. It’s better for them to get fluids orally through drinking and food for as long as possible but three times a week for fluids is ok for now. Her BUN is elevated for where she is with her creatinine. As an example, but ECID, when Gus’s creatinine was 3.5, his BUN was 58. But you also have to factor in that she eats a raw diet and the more protein in the diet, the higher the BUN.

The other good thing about subqs....and I hope he has you giving Lactated Ringers Solution (LRS) at this point, is the LRS has potassium in it. Her potassium is fine now but, often, CKD cats have potassium levels that are too low. The LRS will help and hopefully you won’t have to start a potassium supplement. I never did with any of my cats. If he wants you to give Normosol fluids, be aware that they sting. Right now, her labs are fine for LRS but there are some situation...like cats with high potassium...where Normosol is preferable over LRS. Let me know when you want more info on the types of subqs.
 
Here’s the info on Staging so she’s in Stage 3.

Many vets don’t recommend you start subqs until the creatinine is above 3.5. Typically, it’s better for them to get “some” fluids every day as opposed to more just a few days a week. However, since she hasn’t hit 3.5 on the creatinine yet, his approach is fine. I would suggest when she gets to 3.5, you discuss starting daily fluids.

100 mls of fluids = 20 tsps. So that’s how much extra you’d have to get in her. It’s better for them to get fluids orally through drinking and food for as long as possible but three times a week for fluids is ok for now. Her BUN is elevated for where she is with her creatinine. As an example, but ECID, when Gus’s creatinine was 3.5, his BUN was 58. But you also have to factor in that she eats a raw diet and the more protein in the diet, the higher the BUN.

The other good thing about subqs....and I hope he has you giving Lactated Ringers Solution (LRS) at this point, is the LRS has potassium in it. Her potassium is fine now but, often, CKD cats have potassium levels that are too low. The LRS will help and hopefully you won’t have to start a potassium supplement. I never did with any of my cats. If he wants you to give Normosol fluids, be aware that they sting. Right now, her labs are fine for LRS but there are some situation...like cats with high potassium...where Normosol is preferable over LRS. Let me know when you want more info on the types of subqs.

Stage 3 sounds pretty awful.

She gets about 10-12 tiny meals a day and they are very soupy, so 20 tsp+ (probably more like 30+) is what she gets right now. Since I've been adding water to her food, she barely drinks water in the water dish, which is to be expected. Sometimes she gets most of the liquid out of the food and won't finish the food unless I add more water.

My brain can be like a short acting insulin sometimes, I research things and if I'm not using that info every day, it's pretty in and out, but the little I do recall and why I kept her on a high protein raw diet and ruled out certain proteins and fish was... when I initially researched this a couple years ago, I read about all the prescription renal diets that were low in protein and correlation does not equal causation, the studies with restricted protein also restricted other things. Basically what I recall is that feeding them a low protein diet was utter nonsense and would only lead to muscle wasting. There were proteins that were higher quality than others chicken was one, rabbit was another and some more, I don't recall, but they were more exotic like pheasant maybe? I discussed these findings with my long time vet at the time and she agreed with them and knew what the better quality proteins were.

Yes, he gave lactated ringers solution. I have a lot of research to do, but I know it isn't going to happen in any good amount until there aren't way too many people in my house, re: after the holidays.
 
Stage 3 sounds pretty awful.

She gets about 10-12 tiny meals a day and they are very soupy, so 20 tsp+ (probably more like 30+) is what she gets right now. Since I've been adding water to her food, she barely drinks water in the water dish, which is to be expected. Sometimes she gets most of the liquid out of the food and won't finish the food unless I add more water.

My brain can be like a short acting insulin sometimes, I research things and if I'm not using that info every day, it's pretty in and out, but the little I do recall and why I kept her on a high protein raw diet and ruled out certain proteins and fish was... when I initially researched this a couple years ago, I read about all the prescription renal diets that were low in protein and correlation does not equal causation, the studies with restricted protein also restricted other things. Basically what I recall is that feeding them a low protein diet was utter nonsense and would only lead to muscle wasting. There were proteins that were higher quality than others chicken was one, rabbit was another and some more, I don't recall, but they were more exotic like pheasant maybe? I discussed these findings with my long time vet at the time and she agreed with them and knew what the better quality proteins were.

Yes, he gave lactated ringers solution. I have a lot of research to do, but I know it isn't going to happen in any good amount until there aren't way too many people in my house, re: after the holidays.
My Gussie was at Stage 3 for a very, very long time. I lost him at 18, likely to lymphoma, but because of his age and his other illnesses, we elected to not put him through all the testing. So don’t let the Stage get you worried.

I am a proponent of the “high quality protein is better” philosophy regarding CKD and not the “low protein is better”. I’ve never fed my CKD cats low protein and they’ve all done really, really well. The only one that crossed quickly actually polycystic kidney disease which is genetic and, while it presents like CKD, it’s a whole different beast. Normally, cats with PKD die very early (under 3) but my Maxie made it to 13; however, once he became symptomatic, even giving him all the traditional CKD treatments, it was a very short time and that is characteristic of PKD. The cysts just grow so large that they overtake the kidneys. It’s very unlike CKD, which, with appropriate treatment starting as early as you can, can be maintained for quite some time.

Thanks, @Marje and Gracie lots to unpack here. Regarding the B12, I've given her shots of it before and it gave her quite a boost, I inquired about it last night to the vet and he doesn't have the methyl type as an injectable and said I'd have to find that on my own. Is the other kind okay? I know the methyl one is more bioavailable, but if the methyl one has to go in her mouth, we will likely be at a stalemate there. If you had a choice of the injectable or nothing, is it worth it? It's going to be terrible enough to give her this bupe, but I know it will take the pain level down, so she just might start making that association (I sure hope so anyway).

Her 3 labs prior to diabetes, she had protein in her urine and I never knew what that meant. Given her history of UTI, a kidney infection doesn't seem out of the question. I brought her in for a suspected UTI in September (when she didn't turn up having one, but had diabetes instead), is it possible the infection was in her kidneys instead or urinary tract? Is that something they could miss or the labs don't point to definitively? If the number skyrocketed due to something acute like kidney infection, does that mean it could come back down again too?
The B12 shots are cyanocobalamin and that is quite different. It’s usually given to IBD cats, cats with digestive issues, older cats that need a bit of a boost, etc. as you’ve seen. In the past, it was impossible to get injectable methylB12 but Tanya’s now lists two compounding pharmacies that make it:

Methylcobalamin

Diamondback Drugs

Sell injectable methylcobalamin. It is not mentioned on their site but members of my support group have obtained it from them with no problems. It costs US$39.95 for a 5ml vial of 1000 mcg/ml (1 mg/ml) strength plus US$10 shipping, with a three month expiration date. They also sell cyanocobalamin if required.

McGuff Compounding Pharmacy Services

sell 1000 mcg/ml (1 mg/ml) injectable methylcobalamin, apparently in a 30ml vial, which means some will probably be wasted.

I am not familiar with McGuff but Diamondback Drugs is a very, very reputable compounding pharmacy and I’ve gotten drugs from them that my local compounding pharmacy couldn’t make. This is what Tanya’s states regarding injectable dosing:
Although it is more bioavailable than cyanocobalamin, I understand from those who have used injectable methylcobalamin that the dosage is the same, i.e. 0.25ml of the 1000mcg/ml strength (which is 250mcg), but it is normally only given every 2-4 weeks, although some members of Tanya's Support Group give it more often. Be guided by your vet on the best protocol for your cat.

After Christmas, you can read the full info on Vitamin B that I linked before because there are cautions, etc. While I don’t believe the injectable methylB12 is given IM instead of subq, it’s good to ask the pharmacy if you decide to go that route.

The symptoms of UTIs are generally different than those for kidney infections. Yes, they can easily miss it as you definitely might not see it on blood work or urine unless it had gotten way out of hand and the WBCs were really high. If the creatinine really jumps, it would be suspect; but I’ve seen creatinine jump and there was no infection present (i.e. it was the normal progression of the disease). And yes, if they do have kidney infections and it’s treated [usually they need Baytril or Zeniquin for six weeks....a pill :arghh: (as far as I know but your vet will absolutely know)], then the creatinine can, and usually does, come down.
 
The symptoms of UTIs are generally different than those for kidney infections. Yes, they can easily miss it as you definitely might not see it on blood work or urine unless it had gotten way out of hand and the WBCs were really high. If the creatinine really jumps, it would be suspect; but I’ve seen creatinine jump and there was no infection present (i.e. it was the normal progression of the disease). And yes, if they do have kidney infections and it’s treated [usually they need Baytril or Zeniquin for six weeks....a pill :arghh: (as far as I know but your vet will absolutely know)], then the creatinine can, and usually does, come down.
It just makes me wonder since we never figured out why she screamed back in September. She's had a relatively recent history of UTI (December/January, suspected in September but negative), and if that isn't taken care of fully, can't it go to the kidneys? I am suspect of the creatinine jump, very suspect. Between September and now the only major thing I know of is diabetes, she did spend a decent amount of time in really awful numbers. We also switched to from Stella and Chewys raw to Radcat, but that should be better for CRF because of the eggshells, not worse.

She's had Baytril before many many many years ago and I'm absolutely positive it was an injection (given by my vet) because it's in my vet records as such.

I researched the b stuff a little bit, it sounds like the multi b info is out of date and none of those are available any longer? Or ones without p anyway. I will look in to the compounding pharmacy for the methyl b12.

Very good to know she can hang in stage 3, I was dooming and glooming about it over here. Thanks for all of you help again, Marje!
 
It just makes me wonder since we never figured out why she screamed back in September. She's had a relatively recent history of UTI (December/January, suspected in September but negative), and if that isn't taken care of fully, can't it go to the kidneys? I am suspect of the creatinine jump, very suspect. Between September and now the only major thing I know of is diabetes, she did spend a decent amount of time in really awful numbers. We also switched to from Stella and Chewys raw to Radcat, but that should be better for CRF because of the eggshells, not worse.

She's had Baytril before many many many years ago and I'm absolutely positive it was an injection (given by my vet) because it's in my vet records as such.

I researched the b stuff a little bit, it sounds like the multi b info is out of date and none of those are available any longer? Or ones without p anyway. I will look in to the compounding pharmacy for the methyl b12.

Very good to know she can hang in stage 3, I was dooming and glooming about it over here. Thanks for all of you help again, Marje!
I would assume that an infection in the bladder, if not completely addressed, could migrate to the kidneys but I’m not a vet. And I will definitely take your word for it if you got injectable Baytril would you would have had to give it or take her in every day for it unless they only gave it once....which would be odd. “Usually” Baytril is not a one dose a/b like Clindamycin but I never say never when it comes to vets.

Ugh.....I have only used Jarrows but my Gussie crossed three years ago and they’ve changed the formulation since then. I don’t know about the others. However, the amount of Jarrows given is absolutely minuscule and if she’s getting binders, I just don’t think it is enough to cause her P to go higher. Each of us has to decide what is best but I love that product and even if I had to give a little more binder....or some cooked egg whites..to even it out, I’d probably go with the Jarrows. I also note it has sugar but I think others here use it and I’ve never seen any one say it raised their cat’s BG. But, again, if it does, you tweak the dose. IMHO.

You’re welcome, Jelly Bean!
 
I just saw Karen's tag right now, and I see that you have gotten lots of other responses which, admittedly, I have only scanned what everyone else wrote (and I'm really tired), so forgive me if I repeat anything.

With binders, it works by pulling the phosphorous out of the food, so it has to be given with food - it doesn't do any good if given at other times. At first, it seemed like Trix noticed in her food, but it may have been me being sensitive. There is a version of aluminum hydroxide that is supposedly tasty, and I used to use it with Trix for a while, but it was pricey and I could only get it through my vet....right now the name of it is escaping me, though (that tired thing kicking in), but if I remember it, I'll post.

Trix was one of those cats who did have a problem with her BG plummeting because of SubQs. After many tests of timing, none of which solved the problem, the only thing I found that worked was separating her SubQs and insulin on her body - I shot her insulin in her flank and her SubQs over her shoulder. ECID....unfortunately it is trial and error, but it's important to know that it is possible for fluids to affect BGs, even if it doesn't affect all kitties.

Like Maje's Gussie, my Trix live with a good quality of life teetering between Stage 3 and Stage 4 for over 3 years, so it is possible. Many prayers from us!!


ETA: ConSeal AIH is the tasty-treat phos. binder! Here's the link: ConSeal AIH by Bock Labs
 
With binders, it works by pulling the phosphorous out of the food, so it has to be given with food - it doesn't do any good if given at other times. At first, it seemed like Trix noticed in her food, but it may have been me being sensitive. There is a version of aluminum hydroxide that is supposedly tasty, and I used to use it with Trix for a while, but it was pricey and I could only get it through my vet....right now the name of it is escaping me, though (that tired thing kicking in), but if I remember it, I'll post.
Thanks, I did not realize this at all, so I should try to ration out the amount to get in to all of her meals? That's like 12 meals over 24 hours. She hasn't noticed it one bit, it's awesome that something I need to go in her mouth isn't a problem, for once!

Thanks for your suggestions. :bighug: I already plan for fluids to be in the scruff and I don't do insulin in the scruff, I hope it doesn't make her bg plummet, she doesn't need any help there!
 
Yes, I would try to ration her binder throughout all - or at least most - of her meals. Trix also ate many frequent small meals, and I always put binder in all of them. Glad she hasn't noticed the binder!

When it comes to the fluids, I would just be on top of her BGs, especially at first. Lots of cats' BGs are not affected by fluids at all, but a few of them are. As always, better safe than sorry!
 
Thanks, I did not realize this at all, so I should try to ration out the amount to get in to all of her meals? That's like 12 meals over 24 hours. She hasn't noticed it one bit, it's awesome that something I need to go in her mouth isn't a problem, for once!

Thanks for your suggestions. :bighug: I already plan for fluids to be in the scruff and I don't do insulin in the scruff, I hope it doesn't make her bg plummet, she doesn't need any help there!
I’m very sorry I didn’t make that clear so I’m glad that Amy did. As she said, the goal is for the binder to bind the P in the food before it gets into her tummy.
 
I’m very sorry I didn’t make that clear so I’m glad that Amy did. As she said, the goal is for the binder to bind the P in the food before it gets into her tummy.
Yes, I thought it was an internal working thing. So the 1/3 tsp a day is an arbitrary measurement, and I should try to get an amount in her food equal to the p in that portion? Is there any way to measure how much is the right amount (assuming I have p measurements for food and can do the math for her portion sizes)? Is it bad if there is too much in a serving, like would it hurt her? I tried to get rid of it fast before realizing it worked in the food itself, so I loaded it into the am meals and have none left for the pm ones. :facepalm:
 
Yes, I thought it was an internal working thing. So the 1/3 tsp a day is an arbitrary measurement, and I should try to get an amount in her food equal to the p in that portion? Is there any way to measure how much is the right amount (assuming I have p measurements for food and can do the math for her portion sizes)? Is it bad if there is too much in a serving, like would it hurt her? I tried to get rid of it fast before realizing it worked in the food itself, so I loaded it into the am meals and have none left for the pm ones. :facepalm:
Keep it simple. Just sprinkle a little on each helping that you can and mix it in. Don’t worry about how much you get in each one and don’t worry about math, measurements, etc. I had a 1/4 tsp measure for Gussie and I would fill it in the morning and just be sure by his last meal of the day that it was gone. You’ve got a lot going on and you don’t need to worry about how much goes in each helping. As long as you distribute it through the day (and if you miss a meal or two, it isn’t the end of the world), then you are golden.
 
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