10/18 Asia AMPS 510, PMPS 202, +2 136, +3 96

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I didn't get the tag until this morning but you did the right thing all around. No reason not to shoot early today if you're still trying to get back on schedule. Miss Asia, settle down now please.
 
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/12-17-asia-amps-163-1-25-154-6-42-10-68-pmps-131.188176/

+10.5 Asia takes her bouncing very seriously! :rolleyes:

Thinking of shooting an hour early this morning since we have a 500 and all. I'm still trying to get back on schedule, still 2 hours off. Then when she does crazy night stuff, I only have to stay up until 4am instead of 6am. :blackeye:
Boy does she ever! I'm smiling thinking of the space suit and deep sea diving gear pics posted for her recently. She likes her extremes! Hang in there! Myagi and i are with you in spirit. :bookworm: :bighug::bighug:
 
Sorry I missed you yesterday. This darn junk I have is hanging on and now I have laryngitis to boot.

I’m glad you held the dose. I would say if she has an active cycle like last night and you test at +10.5 and she’s above 300, shoot early to get back on schedule.

I had Gracie do this same thing to me many times. The first time, it was just a few months after she was dx and everyone thought she was headed for remission. But she wasn’t and the dose went back up.

While I don’t have any scientific evidence, my gut tells me there are four possible reasons why cats come down the dosing scale fast:
  • They hit a reallly good dose, the shots are cumulative, the depot overfills and they start a race down until the depot stabilizes more. That’s why we’ve learned to try and spread out the reductions....too many have raced down to a much lower dose too fast, the depot stabilized, the dose had to go back up. Let me know if you want to see some examples. I don’t believe there is enough time in green for the pancreas to really be healing. Asia is in this category. As a side point, we have seen a few kitties where the depot affected +10 subsequent cycles after a reduction.
  • When they hit a stretch of many, many cycles in green, I believe the beta cells start to heal. But they are still fragile and so if the dose comes down too fast and they aren’t getting enough support from the exogenous insulin, the beta cells are too fragile to carry the load. Numbers go back up. This happened to Gracie many, many times.
  • They just needed some support from exogenous insulin long enough for any minor damage to the beta cells and pancreas to heal and then they zip down and right off the insulin. This often happens with dry food cats who are switched to wet food.
  • Some types of cancer cause a race down the scale. I can also show you an example of this if you like. Asia’s SS does not look like this. It has a pretty clear pattern.
That’s just “racing down the scale according to Marje”. No scientific research...just observations from all the cats I’ve seen here and my own.
 
Yuck! I'm sorry you're still not feeling well, hope you kick it all to the curb in time to enjoy the holidays!

Yes, I'm just really confused with all the constant hypos and decreases while trying to wrap my head around the double dip/early onset stuff, exhausting! A couple of the recent cycles on my SS, while technically not hypos, she only stayed above 50 with pretty constant intervention. And I figured the reduction earned yesterday just one cycle after the last was from depot, but the others were spaced out a little more. I haven't seen this type of thing happen, except for with remissions, but I knew that wasn't the same pattern as Asia is having so even more confused. It's just frustrating and exhausting and knowing why she's doing this won't necessarily fix it, but at least I am better prepared of what to expect.

They hit a reallly good dose, the shots are cumulative, the depot overfills and they start a race down until the depot stabilizes more. That’s why we’ve learned to try and spread out the reductions....too many have raced down to a much lower dose too fast, the depot stabilized, the dose had to go back up. Let me know if you want to see some examples. I don’t believe there is enough time in green for the pancreas to really be healing. Asia is in this category. As a side point, we have seen a few kitties where the depot affected +10 subsequent cycles after a reduction.

I would love to check out some examples, please. And examples and experiences according to Marje totally work for me! I trust your observations and others who have seen a lot. Where would any of us be without that?

Thanks again, Marje! :bighug:
 
Some types of cancer cause a race down the scale. I can also show you an example of this if you like. Asia’s SS does not look like this. It has a pretty clear pattern.
I've seen 2 or 3 of these play out since I've been here and I've seen the SSs, very sad, especially when it's at first exciting to see the greens. :(
 
While I don’t have any scientific evidence, my gut tells me there are four possible reasons why cats come down the dosing scale fast:
  • They hit a reallly good dose, the shots are cumulative, the depot overfills and they start a race down until the depot stabilizes more. That’s why we’ve learned to try and spread out the reductions....too many have raced down to a much lower dose too fast, the depot stabilized, the dose had to go back up. Let me know if you want to see some examples. I don’t believe there is enough time in green for the pancreas to really be healing. Asia is in this category. As a side point, we have seen a few kitties where the depot affected +10 subsequent cycles after a reduction.
  • When they hit a stretch of many, many cycles in green, I believe the beta cells start to heal. But they are still fragile and so if the dose comes down too fast and they aren’t getting enough support from the exogenous insulin, the beta cells are too fragile to carry the load. Numbers go back up. This happened to Gracie many, many times.
  • They just needed some support from exogenous insulin long enough for any minor damage to the beta cells and pancreas to heal and then they zip down and right off the insulin. This often happens with dry food cats who are switched to wet food.
  • Some types of cancer cause a race down the scale. I can also show you an example of this if you like. Asia’s SS does not look like this. It has a pretty clear pattern.
That’s just “racing down the scale according to Marje”. No scientific research...just observations from all the cats I’ve seen here and my own.

Very interesting, thanks!
 
Yuck! I'm sorry you're still not feeling well, hope you kick it all to the curb in time to enjoy the holidays!

Yes, I'm just really confused with all the constant hypos and decreases while trying to wrap my head around the double dip/early onset stuff, exhausting! A couple of the recent cycles on my SS, while technically not hypos, she only stayed above 50 with pretty constant intervention. And I figured the reduction earned yesterday just one cycle after the last was from depot, but the others were spaced out a little more. I haven't seen this type of thing happen, except for with remissions, but I knew that wasn't the same pattern as Asia is having so even more confused. It's just frustrating and exhausting and knowing why she's doing this won't necessarily fix it, but at least I am better prepared of what to expect.

I would love to check out some examples, please. And examples and experiences according to Marje totally work for me! I trust your observations and others who have seen a lot. Where would any of us be without that?

Thanks again, Marje! :bighug:
Thank you for the wishes. I actually don’t feel bad but just the coughing and laryngitis are driving me bonkers.

Here are two examples of coming down the scale fast and then coming to a screeching halt:
Osha’s SS starting in July....she came down really fast (4.5u to 0.25u) until end of August. When they come down that fast and the depot finally catches up and stabilizes, the dose often has to go way back up to hit another breakthrough.
Lucy’s SS starting in Oct, 2008 went from 3.75u to 1u by the end of Oct. Then she hit a wall and the dose had to go back up to 4.5u before she “snapped” came back down (slower this time) and went OTJ where she remains.

If you click on Gracie’s SS 2013 tab and scroll to March, you’ll see she got into a long string of really great numbers for several months. I was pretty experienced by then so I did very minor dose adjustments (usually 0.1u at a time). And I worked her curve with food so that she held doses longer. But, it’s with times like these that I think the healing starts, the beta cells ramp up a bit, but then they are too fragile to hold the lower dose and they quit working as well. By Sept, I had her down to 0.5u but had to go back up in dose.

Max’s SS raced off insulin (2.75u end of July to OTJ in Sept) and Dale had a hard time keeping ahead of him. Sadly....he did have cancer. Not every cat that goes OTJ like that has cancer. Often when they “snap” and head towards remission, it’s not quite so dramatic. He went from being unregulated to basically, tightly regulated, fast. And, not every cat that has cancer has a SS that looks like this. Many of the cats with lymphoma (like Gracie), don’t do this.

And then there are the cats like Leo who just suddenly snap and do stay in remission and perfectly healthy. He’s one none of us ever thought would go into remission!

I try to distinguish between “low numbers” and “hypos”. While any number in the 40s needs to get our attention and numbers in the 30s or 20s need action now, I wonder if the reason we don’t see more symptomatic hypos at those numbers is because the human meters read lower on cats. Still....it’s important and we absolutely must take action when we see the numbers drift below 50. Perhaps it is late in the cycle and its a 40 something number but still, we should feed some LC food (unless it is at shot time....then go back and read that info about stalling for 20 mins without food to see if the BG comes up before feeding LC if it doesn’t).

Asia reminds me of Gracie on Lantus although Gracie never got higher than red once or twice. But still....very bouncy and stretches of really nice numbers with reductions earned. It’s one of the reasons I like to stay away from predicting who might or might not go into remission no matter how great (or bad) the SS might look. I strongly believe Gracie was almost a “seasonal diabetic” (my own term that means nothing to anyone but me). She’d always start to look better in the spring through the fall and then crummy during the winter. And I wouldn’t be changing the approach. With hormones, seasons, daylight changes, barometric pressure (yes) etc...all these things affect diabetics. So it isn’t just the insulin we give or the food we feed that affects the BG in most of these kitties. Wish it were that straightforward!!!
 
Thank you so much @Marje and Gracie ! I'm taking full advantage of this bounce by having something of a life today and will review these SSs when I'm tied down to Asia ;)

So true about all those factors making diabetes complicated. I said it before and it still rings true, cat's should be easy (by comparison to people) because we can control so many things: when they eat, getting their shots on time, what and how much they eat, exercise (to a degree) etc. and it's still very far from easy or straightforward. I wish she wasn't so bouncy, I might consider Lev at some point in the future if it continues, have to sell my vet on it though, he doesn't prescribe it...yet! I really wish I'd see Tresiba hit the vet world soon, it really looks promising. I'd be 3rd or 4th in line to get Asia on that insulin! ;)
 
Thank you so much @Marje and Gracie ! I'm taking full advantage of this bounce by having something of a life today and will review these SSs when I'm tied down to Asia ;)

So true about all those factors making diabetes complicated. I said it before and it still rings true, cat's should be easy (by comparison to people) because we can control so many things: when they eat, getting their shots on time, what and how much they eat, exercise (to a degree) etc. and it's still very far from easy or straightforward. I wish she wasn't so bouncy, I might consider Lev at some point in the future if it continues, have to sell my vet on it though, he doesn't prescribe it...yet! I really wish I'd see Tresiba hit the vet world soon, it really looks promising. I'd be 3rd or 4th in line to get Asia on that insulin! ;)

I love Levemir, but Girlie's still bouncing and diving, unfortunately! She just isn't doing the extraordinarily dramatic dives at +1 or +2 anymore - she saves them for +4, but then is generally a little steadier after that. She's definitely better on Levemir than on Lantus, but she was having a lot of trouble on Lantus, I think. I know @Kris & Teasel find that Levemir acts more like an in-and-out insulin rather than a longer duration one, as well. I'd have to check Osha's SS to see how she does on it...
 
Nice to see Asia drifting down. I wonder if she can do the black to green day like Neko once did. My nickname here for her for a long time was the Rainbow Queen. Leo was her Rainbow King and they had rainbow themed parties, until he finally slipped into a pair of green jeans. Lev did help Neko, though, so did the passage of time.

For Olympic bouncers, Asia isn't bad. It's bout time for the Winter Olympics. Maybe ski jumping is Asia's style? Sorry no images of cats, though I did see a jump competition last week at Whistler. No splatty landings please!
 
I know @Kris & Teasel find that Levemir acts more like an in-and-out insulin rather than a longer duration one, a
Wow....I’ve never heard anyone say that. If anything, I think Lev can have a nice, long duration moreso than Lantus. Perhaps she’s not seeing the patterns. When you switch insulin, it can take a few months to really see the effects.

Stacy...I think it’s worthwhile to give Lantus at least six months. I do think Levemir is a great insulin, and although Gracie had periods when she was still bouncy, it was nothing like when she was on Lantus.
 
I love Levemir, but Girlie's still bouncing and diving, unfortunately! She just isn't doing the extraordinarily dramatic dives at +1 or +2 anymore - she saves them for +4, but then is generally a little steadier after that. She's definitely better on Levemir than on Lantus, but she was having a lot of trouble on Lantus, I think. I know @Kris & Teasel find that Levemir acts more like an in-and-out insulin rather than a longer duration one, as well. I'd have to check Osha's SS to see how she does on it...
Girlie has a flair for the dramatics and you are doing such a superb job with her, she looks so much better on Lev so far, I'm glad you switched! Insulins aren't one size fits all, with people some respond amazing on some and horribly on others, I doubt cats are much different there.
 
Nice to see Asia drifting down. I wonder if she can do the black to green day like Neko once did. My nickname here for her for a long time was the Rainbow Queen. Leo was her Rainbow King and they had rainbow themed parties, until he finally slipped into a pair of green jeans. Lev did help Neko, though, so did the passage of time.

For Olympic bouncers, Asia isn't bad. It's bout time for the Winter Olympics. Maybe ski jumping is Asia's style? Sorry no images of cats, though I did see a jump competition last week at Whistler. No splatty landings please!
I saw Leo's SS, that is crazy! Not the SS itself, but that he went from all that mess to OTJ like an on/off switch! :woot: What?!

I keep trying to remind Asia someone of her advanced age shouldn't be doing high impact activities like launching in to space, deep sea diving, ski jumping. She just doesn't listen (maybe because she can't hear). :joyful:

I think she is going to go from black to green in about 15 hours, she's at 136 right now. Yeesh! :facepalm:
 
Wow....I’ve never heard anyone say that. If anything, I think Lev can have a nice, long duration moreso than Lantus. Perhaps she’s not seeing the patterns. When you switch insulin, it can take a few months to really see the effects.

Stacy...I think it’s worthwhile to give Lantus at least six months. I do think Levemir is a great insulin, and although Gracie had periods when she was still bouncy, it was nothing like when she was on Lantus.
I'm in no hurry to switch, it's just nice to know there are options. The less change the better. I'd have to drastically move shot times if I switched and her onset was much later, those are the hours I least monitor on the schedule we have now. Strange thing to me is Lantus is once a day for most people but BID for cats and Lev is usually BID in humans, how does that translate to BID in cats if they have faster metabolisms? o_O
 
I'm in no hurry to switch, it's just nice to know there are options. The less change the better. I'd have to drastically move shot times if I switched and her onset was much later, those are the hours I least monitor on the schedule we have now. Strange thing to me is Lantus is once a day for most people but BID for cats and Lev is usually BID in humans, how does that translate to BID in cats if they have faster metabolisms? o_O
Levemir, in humans, has a 24 hour duration and can be given once a day or divided into two smaller doses bid. That might be for people who metabolize it quicker and don’t get the duration they need. Similar to how some cats on PZ need tid dosing.

Look who decided to clear her bounce fast! Looks like another pj party!
036E752A-92FD-4DD8-9415-90EA7A188F93.jpeg
 
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