Hi from me and Molly, any advice please

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JanetNJ said:
Great. I would test though and if it’s going up give a small dose or the morning is going to be very high again. ESP with a human meter an 8.9 is low but still above normal.
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I did another test at 11pm and it was lower at 8.3, so still didn't give any....this morning up to 20.1, which is what it normally is after having a pm shot the previous evening...I expected it to be higher to be honest
 
Elizabeth and Bertie said:
Wow! That was a really lovely run of blue numbers, Sue. Very nice indeed....
.
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It was good while it lasted now it's 19 at +3 so back to square one again, I don't understand why it keeps doing this, one day it's pretty good, the next it's really high again..even my Vet doesn't seem to know or offer any kind of explanation, I'm still so confused with it all
 
Sue Hammond said:
I don't understand why it keeps doing this, one day it's pretty good, the next it's really high again.
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Don't worry. It's very 'early days'. :bighug:

With Caninsulin, when you get a low number at the end of an insulin cycle - or get a lovely run of nice numbers like you saw yesterday - it's most often (though not always) because the cat's body is putting out some insulin of its own at times. ...But in the beginning it may be that the pancreas can only do this for short periods of time. When it stops producing insulin the blood glucose rises again.
.
 
Elizabeth and Bertie said:
Don't worry. It's very 'early days'. :bighug:

With Caninsulin, when you get a low number at the end of an insulin cycle - or get a lovely run of nice numbers like you saw yesterday - it's most often (though not always) because the cat's body is putting out some insulin of its own at times. ...But in the beginning it may be that the pancreas can only do this for short periods of time. When it stops producing insulin the blood glucose rises again.
.
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That makes a lot of sense, thank you
 
Diana&Tom said:
Well, as you know, Monica is going through the same frustrations but has decided to go with the flow and posted a little poem about it just now:

Boo for red and yay for blue
The cat is happy so I should be too!

Worth remembering!
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That's great, I will remember that xx
 
How long should insulin cartridges be kept for once started to use,I read somewhere 28 days, but this seems such a waste
 
Sue Hammond said:
How long should insulin cartridges be kept for once started to use,I read somewhere 28 days, but this seems such a waste
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Depending on the country where the product is bought, the product label may say the insulin should be discarded 21, 28 or 42 days after first opening.
Caninsulin (Vetsulin) was tested by the manufacturer in USA for 42 days after first use. But some countries' regulatory authorities do not allow product labels that permit the use of sterile products for more than 21 or 28 days after first opening.

Many FDMB members use the insulin for longer than is suggested.
Since you are home testing, you may see increased BG levels in your cat if the insulin is losing potency.
If there are white ‘floaties’ in the insulin, it needs to be replaced.

Eliz
 
After a relatively good day n the blues yesterday and not needing her pm shot, it's now gone back up in the pinks again 1.5u given this morning just like yesterday, +3 19bg. +6 20.3bg, whereas yesterday her +3 was 6.2, only rising to 8.9 pm preshot....I really don't think I can take much more if these fluctuations, I'm so stressed out, I think I'm going to snap...I just feel like crying poor Molly seems so happy in herself though,her coat has improved (no more dandruff) she's eating normally although she was before all this started, she's not constantly looking for water, she's weeing and pooing normally, should I stick to 1.5u unless she's low..Many thanks xx
 
Sue Hammond said:
After a relatively good day n the blues yesterday and not needing her pm shot, it's now gone back up in the pinks again 1.5u given this morning just like yesterday, +3 19bg. +6 20.3bg, whereas yesterday her +3 was 6.2, only rising to 8.9 pm preshot....I really don't think I can take much more if these fluctuations, I'm so stressed out, I think I'm going to snap...I just feel like crying poor Molly seems so happy in herself though,her coat has improved (no more dandruff) she's eating normally although she was before all this started, she's not constantly looking for water, she's weeing and pooing normally, should I stick to 1.5u unless she's low..Many thanks xx
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I'm always seeing increased bg levels, so I really wouldn't even notice a problem with the insulin,.... I've just checked the box and it says 28 days, what a waste
 
Sue Hammond said:
After a relatively good day n the blues yesterday and not needing her pm shot, it's now gone back up in the pinks again 1.5u given this morning just like yesterday, +3 19bg. +6 20.3bg, whereas yesterday her +3 was 6.2, only rising to 8.9 pm preshot....I really don't think I can take much more if these fluctuations, I'm so stressed out, I think I'm going to snap...I just feel like crying poor Molly seems so happy in herself though,her coat has improved (no more dandruff) she's eating normally although she was before all this started, she's not constantly looking for water, she's weeing and pooing normally, should I stick to 1.5u unless she's low..Many thanks xx
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On the Facebook page of Cats with Pancreatitis someone commented on my confused and concerned post saying they received the best piece of advice ever from a cat specialist in Boston when they were so desperate and constantly concerned about their cat's fluctuating numbers.
The specialist asked them if the cat was healthy looking, eating well, playful and generally happy. They said yes. Then he said:
'In that case treat the symptoms and not the numbers'

We should look at the cat and not the numbers.
Sometimes even I have to remind myself this as just like you I can get carried away with obsessing over the odd numbers that make no sense whatsoever.
You can do your best with the insulin and diet but the rest is beyond our control. Sometimes how our kitties respond is just not as straightforward as they describe it in the Feline Diabetes User Manual and might not ever be. I have accepted this now and am prepared for whatever challenge she will surprise me with:)
Josie is happy and healthy looking, we agree with my husband that if we weren't looking at her spreadsheet we would say that she is well regulated, healthy and there is nothing wrong with her.
And she was diagnosed with Chronic Pancreatitis as well! Yet still she's looking the healthiest fluffiest and sweetest she's ever been since her diabetes started back in April.

So please try to give yourself a break, cherish and embrace that Molly is looking well, her numbers often hit the blues and might do it more and more often as time goes on.
Anything can happen in this crazy rollercoaster journey but we got to try to keep our sanity and cannot let some numbers take over our lives!:banghead:

As for how long should keep insulin, when I asked my vet the same thing she said that she uses the bottles for 3-4 months herself as the 28 days written on the label is just a cautious general manufacturers advice they had to come up with when they first launched insulin and had to put something on the label..
 
Monica Lewis said:
On the Facebook page of Cats with Pancreatitis someone commented on my confused and concerned post saying they received the best piece of advice ever from a cat specialist in Boston when they were so desperate and constantly concerned about their cat's fluctuating numbers.
The specialist asked them if the cat was healthy looking, eating well, playful and generally happy. They said yes. Then he said:
'In that case treat the symptoms and not the numbers'

We should look at the cat and not the numbers.
Sometimes even I have to remind myself this as just like you I can get carried away with obsessing over the odd numbers that make no sense whatsoever.
You can do your best with the insulin and diet but the rest is beyond our control. Sometimes how our kitties respond is just not as straightforward as they describe it in the Feline Diabetes User Manual and might not ever be. I have accepted this now and am prepared for whatever challenge she will surprise me with:)
Josie is happy and healthy looking, we agree with my husband that if we weren't looking at her spreadsheet we would say that she is well regulated, healthy and there is nothing wrong with her.
And she was diagnosed with Chronic Pancreatitis as well! Yet still she's looking the healthiest fluffiest and sweetest she's ever been since her diabetes started back in April.

So please try to give yourself a break, cherish and embrace that Molly is looking well, her numbers often hit the blues and might do it more and more often as time goes on.
Anything can happen in this crazy rollercoaster journey but we got to try to keep our sanity and cannot let some numbers take over our lives!:banghead:

As for how long should keep insulin, when I asked my vet the same thing she said that she uses the bottles for 3-4 months herself as the 28 days written on the label is just a cautious general manufacturers advice they had to come up with when they first launched insulin and had to put something on the label..
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I think that is very good advice Monica, those jumping numbers are driving me crazy, but Molly doesn't seem to have a care in the world...Who knows just how long she had been diabetic before we noticed the tell tale signs.

She looks happy, her coat is now free of dandruff, (tell tale sign of diabetes, which I didn't know), she's eating normally, but then she was before diagnosis, she's not constantly looking for water anymore, weeing like normal, everything on the outside is good, it's just those damn bouncing numbers...I will try to do the same, and not live my life around the numbers, but it's so hard..

My Vet said exactly the same, look at the cat, not the numbers, the clinical signs he said are good and have improved, so I guess something is going in the right direction xx
 
Monica Lewis said:
Hi Sue,
I saw your post earlier but as can’t really give dosage advice I was waiting for the others to get back to you. Still not sure if it’s right or not but I probably would’ve done the same when unsure.. Then again I’ve always been on the cautious side of dosing!
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I hope I did right, but I'm going to stay up a while and do a blood test later x
 
Sue Hammond said:
I gave .5, hoping I did right
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In the circumstances I think .5 was the right call; especially since this was the PM shot, and you wouldn't have the same ability to test as in the daytime. :bighug:

The pattern looks much like what happened on the morning of 15th Oct.
...I'm wondering if Molly is getting little bounces when she drops into blue numbers. It can happen...
.
 
Elizabeth and Bertie said:
In the circumstances I think .5 was the right call; especially since this was the PM shot, and you wouldn't have the same ability to test as in the daytime. :bighug:

The pattern looks much like what happened on the morning of 15th Oct.
...I'm wondering if Molly is getting little bounces when she drops into blue numbers. It can happen...
.
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Morning Elizabeth, do you mean she could be making her own insulin x
 
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Evening everyone, well Molly's at it again, very high pre shot tests, and has remained high all day, so I've upped the evening shot to 1.5u, just hope I did the right thing...I still have no idea why one day it's in the blues and yellows during the day, and the next day it's in the pinks and reds
 
Sue Hammond said:
Evening everyone, well Molly's at it again, very high pre shot tests, and has remained high all day, so I've upped the evening shot to 1.5u, just hope I did the right thing...I still have no idea why one day it's in the blues and yellows during the day, and the next day it's in the pinks and reds
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Hi Sue, that is an odd pattern indeed! I’m sorry I can’t offer you much help regarding dosage, hopefully the others will be able to advise you soon.
We used to have these days whilst on Caninsulin when numbers didn’t go down at all throughout the day:banghead:
The most sensible explanation what they usually say is that it could’ve been a fur shot but I was never really convinced it was as it happened quite often and we always felt the needle going in all ok. I remember it always bugged me why this happened but I could never figure out the real reason..
Hang in there! :bighug:
 
Monica Lewis said:
Hi Sue, that is an odd pattern indeed! I’m sorry I can’t offer you much help regarding dosage, hopefully the others will be able to advise you soon.
We used to have these days whilst on Caninsulin when numbers didn’t go down at all throughout the day:banghead:
The most sensible explanation what they usually say is that it could’ve been a fur shot but I was never really convinced it was as it happened quite often and we always felt the needle going in all ok. I remember it always bugged me why this happened but I could never figure out the real reason..
Hang in there! :bighug:
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I can definitely say it's not fur shots, but Molly has a habit of doing this, she's a little minx lol xx
 
I think as we have suggested before it's more likely to be a combination of sputtering pancreas and possibly some bounce... all you can do really is keep varying the dose according to bg and hope numbers settle into more of a pattern in time. If as her body heals she starts producing her own insulin on a more regular basis, you'd be getting a lot more blues even at ps, but for now this is a process that you just have to go through.
 
Diana&Tom said:
I think as we have suggested before it's more likely to be a combination of sputtering pancreas and possibly some bounce... all you can do really is keep varying the dose according to bg and hope numbers settle into more of a pattern in time. If as her body heals she starts producing her own insulin on a more regular basis, you'd be getting a lot more blues even at ps, but for now this is a process that you just have to go through.
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It's even higher this morning 25.4, I just worry that these really high numbers are going to make her very ill
 
Hi everyone, just very bewildered here.. As you will see on Molly's spreadsheet, she had amps of 23.9.. + 3 was 19.3, and now +6 is 26.4... She looks on the outside perfectly ok, and no different to any other day... But this is the highest +6 bg we've had since she started insulin 64 days ago... I'm at a loss as to what's going on.. also this test was almost 3 hours after food ... Any advice please, thank you x
 
Sue Hammond said:
Hi everyone, just very bewildered here.. As you will see on Molly's spreadsheet, she had amps of 23.9.. + 3 was 19.3, and now +6 is 26.4... She looks on the outside perfectly ok, and no different to any other day... But this is the highest +6 bg we've had since she started insulin 64 days ago... I'm at a loss as to what's going on.. also this test was almost 3 hours after food ... Any advice please, thank you x
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Hi Sue, I would start a separate thread on the main forum, also you might want to post one on the Caninsulin forum, this way you might get more eyes and hopefully more response..
Again you are not on your own -
Josie still has very high ps numbers and no matter how much we increased the dosage so far they are not going any lower so we have our own mind boggling case to crack...:banghead:
 
Monica Lewis said:
Hi Sue, I would start a separate thread on the main forum, also you might want to post one on the Caninsulin forum, this way you might get more eyes and hopefully more response..
Again you are not on your own -
Josie still has very high ps numbers and no matter how much we increased the dosage so far they are not going any lower so we have our own mind boggling case to crack...:banghead:
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Is that in this forum, but just a seperate thread? Xx
 
I’m sorry I’m on my phone and not sure how to find on the small screen where you posted this thread.. if you click on Forums it will show you both, Caninsulin one is somewhere at the bottom of forums page..
 
Sue Hammond said:
I posted in Feline health (the main forum)
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Hi Sue, I can't find a new thread (sorry if I'm being a bit dim....) To start a new thread you go to the main forum and then click on the 'post new thread' tab in the top right hand corner of the page.

Meanwhile, yes...the last couple of days do seem quite different for Molly...
It looks to me as though the effect of the insulin is less and that the duration is shorter. Things to think about;

Is the insulin OK? Does it have any little white specks in it?
Do you have control solution to do a test with? Or could you test yourself (or another willing volunteer) to see if the reading looks normal?

Have you started new test strips?

Have you fed anything different over the last couple few days?

Is Molly peeing and pooping OK?
Any issues such as furballs..?

.
 
Elizabeth and Bertie said:
Hi Sue, I can't find a new thread (sorry if I'm being a bit dim....) To start a new thread you go to the main forum and then click on the 'post new thread' tab in the top right hand corner of the page.

Meanwhile, yes...the last couple of days do seem quite different for Molly...
It looks to me as though the effect of the insulin is less and that the duration is shorter. Things to think about;

Is the insulin OK? Does it have any little white specks in it?
Do you have control solution to do a test with? Or could you test yourself (or another willing volunteer) to see if the reading looks normal?

Have you started new test strips?

Have you fed anything different over the last couple few days?

Is Molly peeing and pooping OK?
Any issues such as furballs..?

.
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Elizabeth and Bertie said:
Hi Sue, I can't find a new thread (sorry if I'm being a bit dim....) To start a new thread you go to the main forum and then click on the 'post new thread' tab in the top right hand corner of the page.

Meanwhile, yes...the last couple of days do seem quite different for Molly...
It looks to me as though the effect of the insulin is less and that the duration is shorter. Things to think about;

Is the insulin OK? Does it have any little white specks in it?
Do you have control solution to do a test with? Or could you test yourself (or another willing volunteer) to see if the reading looks normal?

Have you started new test strips?

Have you fed anything different over the last couple few days?

Is Molly peeing and pooping OK?
Any issues such as furballs..?

.
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I haven't posted on a new thread, I've just continued with this one...The insulin has no white bits in it, looks absolutely fine to me, it's been in use for 3 weeks....What do you mean by control solutions and testing on our self...No the test strips are from the same box as last week...I tested myself and my bg was 4.7, so the strips are fine ....I have fed the exact same food no change there...She's peeing and pooing as normal...and not in search of water, no fur balls either...her bg has fallen now to 22 +9
 
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Surely she can't carry on like this much longer, she's going to become so poorly....I really do appreciate all your comments and advice, but this is now making me ill...I'm having trouble sleeping because of the worry...I'm worrying about what her tests will be before I've even done them... I'm worried about leaving her to go out and constantly clock watching so I don't miss her tests/feeding/shots...Molly on the other hand doesn't seem to have a care in the world..On the outside she looks the same as she did years ago x
 
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Sue Hammond said:
Surely she can't carry on like this much longer, she's going to become so poorly
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((((Sue))))), sometimes our kitty's numbers spike up and we just don't the reason why.
My cat's numbers were pretty high for a long time when he was first diagnosed. Even so, after nearly 11 years of diabetes, he's now made it to the age of 19.

The BG numbers that you see aren't the whole story. Your cat is still the same adorable cat that she was before this diagnosis. Diabetes is just part of the picture. And the insulin will be helping Molly's body, even though you're not always seeing that reflected in the numbers.

You're doing fine. It does take patience though. As we say around here, 'managing diabetes is a marathon and not a sprint'. ;)
.
 
You must be getting sick of me constantly posting in here, but this morning Molly's Amps was 5.1, so no insulin this morning...last night it was 22.3, could she be starting to produce her own insulin, could this explain her up and down BG...I've changed nothing, routine is the same, feeding is the same, she seems well on the outside etc... totally clueless as to what's going on here.
 
Sue Hammond said:
You must be getting sick of me constantly posting in here, but this morning Molly's Amps was 5.1, so no insulin this morning...last night it was 22.3, could she be starting to produce her own insulin, could this explain her up and down BG...I've changed nothing, routine is the same, feeding is the same, she seems well on the outside etc... totally clueless as to what's going on here.
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Hi Sue,
Going by this number it looks very likely that there is some activity going on in there.
It is a beautiful ps number but as I always say just be prepared for anything and whatever follows try not let it get to you too much.
Hope you and kitty will enjoy a nice blue day:)
 
Monica Lewis said:
Hi Sue,
Going by this number it looks very likely that there is some activity going on in there.
It is a beautiful ps number but as I always say just be prepared for anything and whatever follows try not let it get to you too much.
Hope you and kitty will enjoy a nice blue day:)
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I think it's a case of frustration and disappointment mixed Monica, I'll do more regular tests today, see how she goes...here's hoping x
 
She's lost a kilo since being diagnosed almost 3 months ago, so maybe that's reflecting in her figures, although she had a couple of dark greens a while back, so maybe not x
 
Sue Hammond said:
You must be getting sick of me constantly posting in here...
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No! Of course not! That's exactly what the forum is for, Sue. :bighug:

Sue Hammond said:
Molly's Amps was 5.1, so no insulin this morning...last night it was 22.3, could she be starting to produce her own insulin, could this explain her up and down BG
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There are several possible reasons for a low preshot number with Caninsulin (Vetsulin), including:

The cat producing some insulin of its own:
Patterns you might typically see here are either that the BG drops into a good range, and then 'surfs' there for the rest of the cycle;
OR, that the BG drops throughout the entire cycle. The latter could also be caused by 'bouncing'.

Bouncing:
When a cat's blood glucose drops too low or too fast for the body's comfort, the body can release stored glucose to raise the BG level. It can also release counter-regulatory hormones, the purpose of which is to try to keep the BG high. Once the effect of that wears off the BG will drop again. And sometimes it will drop, and drop, and drop throughout an entire 12 hour cycle, or even longer.

If bouncing becomes a pattern you'd typically see high, 'flat' numbers, interspersed with low numbers. So, if this pattern is observed on a cat's SS bouncing should be considered as a possibility.

Possible 'remedies' for bouncing depend on the reasons why the bouncing is happening:
If the BG is dropping too fast (but the insulin dose itself seems sound), giving a second meal an hour or hour and a half into the cycle may help to slow down the rate at which the BG drops. (Manipulating the cycle with food is called 'steering the curve'.)

If the BG is dropping too low (ie. potentially into hypo range), then the insulin dose needs to be reduced.

If the BG is staying at safe levels but is just dropping too low for the cats comfort level, there are a couple of options:
  1. It's possible that reducing the dose a little may help to even out the cycle by keeping the BG above whatever level is triggering the bounce. Some folks try to get their cats used to the BG level just above the trigger point, and then gradually take the cat's BG down a bit lower. Does this work? Sometimes. Sometimes not.
  2. Alternatively, you can just continue with the dose and hope that the cat gets used to the lower numbers and stops bouncing. Does this work? Sometimes. Sometimes not.
Some cats are just more prone to bouncing than others; and some will even bounce all the way to remission... :cat:


Eliz
 
Elizabeth and Bertie said:
No! Of course not! That's exactly what the forum is for, Sue. :bighug:


There are several possible reasons for a low preshot number with Caninsulin (Vetsulin), including:

The cat producing some insulin of its own:
Patterns you might typically see here are either that the BG drops into a good range, and then 'surfs' there for the rest of the cycle;
OR, that the BG drops throughout the entire cycle. The latter could also be caused by 'bouncing'.

Bouncing:
When a cat's blood glucose drops too low or too fast for the body's comfort, the body can release stored glucose to raise the BG level. It can also release counter-regulatory hormones, the purpose of which is to try to keep the BG high. Once the effect of that wears off the BG will drop again. And sometimes it will drop, and drop, and drop throughout an entire 12 hour cycle, or even longer.

If bouncing becomes a pattern you'd typically see high, 'flat' numbers, interspersed with low numbers. So, if this pattern is observed on a cat's SS bouncing should be considered as a possibility.

Possible 'remedies' for bouncing depend on the reasons why the bouncing is happening:
If the BG is dropping too fast (but the insulin dose itself seems sound), giving a second meal an hour or hour and a half into the cycle may help to slow down the rate at which the BG drops. (Manipulating the cycle with food is called 'steering the curve'.)

If the BG is dropping too low (ie. potentially into hypo range), then the insulin dose needs to be reduced.

If the BG is staying at safe levels but is just dropping too low for the cats comfort level, there are a couple of options:
  1. It's possible that reducing the dose a little may help to even out the cycle by keeping the BG above whatever level is triggering the bounce. Some folks try to get their cats used to the BG level just above the trigger point, and then gradually take the cat's BG down a bit lower. Does this work? Sometimes. Sometimes not.
  2. Alternatively, you can just continue with the dose and hope that the cat gets used to the lower numbers and stops bouncing. Does this work? Sometimes. Sometimes not.
Some cats are just more prone to bouncing than others; and some will even bounce all the way to remission... :cat:


Eliz
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I find all that so confusing Eliz, Molly's a little eater, she only eats a little at a time, so demand feeding is impossible, she never evens eats a full meal at breakfast....I've just done another test,+3 is 6.1, I'll do another +6, my guess is by tonight it'll be pretty high again...I still don't really know about all his adjusting doses, meals etc, but I really do appreciate all your help, thank you so much
 
Sue Hammond said:
I find all that so confusing Eliz, Molly's a little eater, she only eats a little at a time, so demand feeding is impossible, she never evens eats a full meal at breakfast....I've just done another test,+3 is 6.1, I'll do another +6, my guess is by tonight it'll be pretty high again...I still don't really know about all his adjusting doses, meals etc, but I really do appreciate all your help, thank you so much
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Sue, I suggest having a really good read of the Beginner's Guide to Caninsulin which you'll find on the C/V forum. A new updated version hot off the press was posted by Elizabeth yesterday... it's the result of months and months worth of work by a team of people here working together to make using these insulins as easy and straightforward as possible... I strongly suggest printing it out and keeping it handy to answer some of your questions. We spent ages deliberating over the tiniest detail and making it as user-friendly as possible.
 
Diana&Tom said:
Sue, I suggest having a really good read of the Beginner's Guide to Caninsulin which you'll find on the C/V forum. A new updated version hot off the press was posted by Elizabeth yesterday... it's the result of months and months worth of work by a team of people here working together to make using these insulins as easy and straightforward as possible... I strongly suggest printing it out and keeping it handy to answer some of your questions. We spent ages deliberating over the tiniest detail and making it as user-friendly as possible.
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I've read it, but I still don't understand it all, sorry, it must just be me
 
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